Can any MMO really succeed today?

[Blackardin]

Maybe they need to stop trying to make WoW, and make their own MMO.

 

If I've not already said it, following the wow model will grant success. That is what the high maintenance, low attention span player of today needs-addons, macros, fast and complex raiding, content after content, many sidebar distractions to keep them occupied.

 

A game that requires more out of raid work then actual raiding work seems to be what will keep people interested. Wow started failing when it moved away from that model to the current dumbed down version. DC was its pinnacle, when min maxing came into play, when faction grinds, many dungeons, lots of sidebar stuff needed to be done in order to succeed. It started to fail with heroic dungeons, easy raiding pugs etc.

 

Games such as this will succeed (basing on numbers) to a small degree. The next block-buster will have to revert to the wow BC model, with lots of bells and whistles, lots of peripheral aspects (such as addon developers, stratagists, professional raid guilds etc).

[Tic-]

If I've not already said it, following the wow model will grant success. That is what the high maintenance, low attention span player of today needs-addons, macros, fast and complex raiding, content after content, many sidebar distractions to keep them occupied.

 

A game that requires more out of raid work then actual raiding work seems to be what will keep people interested. Wow started failing when it moved away from that model to the current dumbed down version. DC was its pinnacle, when min maxing came into play, when faction grinds, many dungeons, lots of sidebar stuff needed to be done in order to succeed. It started to fail with heroic dungeons, easy raiding pugs etc.

 

Games such as this will succeed (basing on numbers) to a small degree. The next block-buster will have to revert to the wow BC model, with lots of bells and whistles, lots of peripheral aspects (such as addon developers, stratagists, professional raid guilds etc).

 

Yes, lets regurgitate the wow model that will sure to be a success.

[TKMaster]

Yes, lets regurgitate the wow model that will sure to be a success.

 

Whats the solution then?

 

When a AAA MMO is developed you have to know that the ppl funding it expect it to be on par with WoW subs. Also the WoW players claim to want something new but if said product isnt similar to WoW the millions of WoW babies cry for thier blizz bottle back. If it is similar they all get on the new game bus but leave after 1-6 months all the way home flaming, tweeting, blogging, and posting about how the game they just left is the worst thing since the holocost.

 

The entire genre now is a catch-22.

[Goretzu]

If I've not already said it, following the wow model will grant success. That is what the high maintenance, low attention span player of today needs-addons, macros, fast and complex raiding, content after content, many sidebar distractions to keep them occupied.

 

 

Rift is as close to a new WoW as you can get, and whilst it's doing fine (thanks to the herculean efforts of its Devs), it's not doing anything like as well as WoW did.

 

Only something new and innovative will.

[Tic-]

Whats the solution then?

 

When a AAA MMO is developed you have to know that the ppl funding it expect it to be on par with WoW subs. Also the WoW players claim to want something new but if said product isnt similar to WoW the millions of WoW babies cry for thier blizz bottle back. If it is similar they all get on the new game bus but leave after 1-6 months all the way home flaming, tweeting, blogging, and posting about how the game they just left is the worst thing since the holocost.

 

The entire genre now is a catch-22.

 

Right from the get go, you need new people funding your game.

 

You don't need 10 million subscribers to be a success. Again, look at EvE, does it have even a half a million subs? I don't believe so, but its a great success (in my opinion, and i don't play).

 

Perhaps you shouldn't be targetting the WoW playerbase exclusively if your concerns are wether or not they will be happy.

 

I don't have all the answers, but i see what these knuckleheads seem to do over and over again.

 

If you can't come up with something even slghtly orginal, fun, and interesting, save your time, and money, we already know the outcome, and even then, your chances may not be very good at a "success".

Edited August 11, 2012 by Tic-

[NamikazeNaruto]

Whats the solution then?

 

When a AAA MMO is developed you have to know that the ppl funding it expect it to be on par with WoW subs. Also the WoW players claim to want something new but if said product isnt similar to WoW the millions of WoW babies cry for thier blizz bottle back. If it is similar they all get on the new game bus but leave after 1-6 months all the way home flaming, tweeting, blogging, and posting about how the game they just left is the worst thing since the holocost.

 

The entire genre now is a catch-22.

 

This is basically the main point of my original post. People claim to want something different from WoW but when something different and innoative comes out, it becomes a niche game. From a business point of view I cannot see why they would want to make a niche game. Why even take the risk of making something innovative and fresh when you can copy the most successful MMO model and get millions of subs at launch? Of course, you won't retain those subs either. So the choice is... have a successful launch but be unable to retain your subs. Or make something "innovative" and become a game that has 250,000 subs at best, compared to WoW's 10 million. I feel as though this genre is at a dead end.

[Tic-]

This is basically the main point of my original post. People claim to want something different from WoW but when something different and innoative comes out, it becomes a niche game. From a business point of view I cannot see why they would want to make a niche game. Why even take the risk of making something innovative and fresh when you can copy the most successful MMO model and get millions of subs at launch? Of course, you won't retain those subs either. So the choice is... have a successful launch but be unable to retain your subs. Or make something "innovative" and become a game that has 250,000 subs at best, compared to WoW's 10 million. I feel as though this genre is at a dead end.

 

Stop trying to make WoW.

Stop comparing your game to WoW.

Stop trying to appease the WoW crowd.

Stop thinking the only meaning of success is 10 million.

 

until then, yea, dead end.

[Canmore]

depends on what your definition of suceess is , many people beleave this game is a sucess , i dont . but i hoped for some sandbox elements , did i get my monies worth i beleave i did but i will be moving along to other things permanently on the 17 th .

[Skorz]

Rift is the second most succefull MMO.

 

Just wondering how many players they got these days and hows the end game?

Edited August 11, 2012 by Skorz

[Lt_Latency]

Yes long as it;'s not WoW with less content

[Valkirus]

If I've not already said it, following the wow model will grant success. That is what the high maintenance, low attention span player of today needs-addons, macros, fast and complex raiding, content after content, many sidebar distractions to keep them occupied.

 

A game that requires more out of raid work then actual raiding work seems to be what will keep people interested. Wow started failing when it moved away from that model to the current dumbed down version. DC was its pinnacle, when min maxing came into play, when faction grinds, many dungeons, lots of sidebar stuff needed to be done in order to succeed. It started to fail with heroic dungeons, easy raiding pugs etc.

 

Games such as this will succeed (basing on numbers) to a small degree. The next block-buster will have to revert to the wow BC model, with lots of bells and whistles, lots of peripheral aspects (such as addon developers, stratagists, professional raid guilds etc).

 

I would have to agree with your point about TBC expansion for WoW, which from even those who still enjoy WoW in it's present state, many will agree TBC was the best expansion ever by Blizzard. It was hard, had attunements for even getting into raids and dungeons. They had a better crafting system, with specializations in each profession, which allowed a crafter to make thier own BOP epic sets. So from a hardcore player's perspective, it certainly was a better play experence.

 

However, it did not appeal as much to the casual player, which WOTLK did. They had thier peak sub numbers during WOTLK and started to lose a lot of players after the introduction of Cata. Because they made Cata's learning curve too hard for a lot of casuals. The dungeons were harder and it was hard to tank and heal them. CC was needed, which a lot of players had not been using in WOTLK, which thier heroics were a aoe feast.

 

With MOP they are trying to combine content to appeal to all types of players even more. I have not played the beta for it, but I have some friends who have and they really like it. And these are ones who would agree TBC was the best expansion, but they feel really excited about the new one coming. There will be more content than ever. With new ways to play. Challenge modes with 3 different settings for smaller grps to try. More factions to gain rep with at the start.

 

I think the key for any new MMO is to have content which can appeal to all types of players and not just to one. With multiple ways to experence the end game content and even in professions, have ways for those who want to spend most of thier time doing that, ways to do end game professional accomplishments. It is good to have very hard and tough content for the hardcore players, but to not pay attention to the casual players is a mistake too. And you are correct. If a MMO has content which is too easy, then you need to keep feeding that beast with faster release of new content.

[Blazenor]

MMOs is a gaming service and not a game you buy, good service will always succeed.

[zeron]

Looks at Rift, and various other MMO's that are doing fine, as long as they have a Reasonable BUDGET they can be doing well.

[belizar]

any new mmo can succeed just dont copy and paste WoW with new skins simple really o and dont blow 200mil on a IP and VO make your own unviverse and lore

[Canmore]

the first developer to introduce new concepts to the genre will make a suceesfull mmo , this modeling after wow repeatedly has cost many a developer failure

[Yinata]

MMO's can succeed, it has been quoted by many developers that the problem with the MMO industry in its current state is that it's in somewhat of a stagnant state, there has been a lack of innovation or change that makes many games stand out from the others in the past years. There is also the problem that many gaming companies have tried to clone WoW for success, when the truth is that those who like WoW have likely been playing it for years, and have no real reason to pay another company for the same experience when they have so much time and effort put into their characters.

 

A subscription based MMO can succeed, EvE Online is a sign of this, it dropped a few subs last year, but has regained most and showing some signs of growth again. Yes it has no where near the WoW subs sitting at 450k subs, and has made the developers of it so much money since launch that they can basically support it indefinitely. The difference is that EvE Online is fully sandbox, and one of the only sub based sandbox games on the market, so it found it's niche, and has flourished in that. That's the thing I don't think another game can necessarily expect WoW type success, but if they manage their development budget around expectations for the game, they can easily profit under the sub based model because if players like your product, word of mouth spreads and before long you can have a hit on your hands.

 

With all this being said I doubt you will see another MMO with a development budget of SWTOR for the subscription model, a rule of thumb for new projects would be to stay well below $100million, and likely try to stay under the $50 million range in development, therefore the product doesn't need tons of subs to be profitable and a success. The reason for this would be that by being able to fund content and expansion with the subs a game does have so say Rift as an Example only has 250k subs but still churns out content and updates rather regularly. I think with the addition of content and making the game better with the subs a game does have while remaining profitable would be the best way for long term success in the model as you keep your current players happy while adding features and content to draw new players in. Some of the larger budget MMO's have a hard time doing this because of the initial cost of development they need so many subs right after the game hits to stay profitable and still churn out content that it leads to unreasonable expectations for a new MMO as it takes time to build up Sub Numbers through content advances and expansion. WoW gained it's most subs after the BC and LK expansions, but you will see that their lack of content in between their huge expansions has led to a loss of subs, showing that the WoW model isn't perfect by any means either.

 

The problem is when we try to measure new MMO sub numbers based on WoW's success, we forget that to a gaming community that loves a game such as EvE Online, or some of the other smaller niche based MMO's that may not have 1 million plus subs are still success by the companies that run them standards. If an MMO is making a profit under the sub based model and able to fund content and expansion of the game and community under it, then it's a success. The problem is every MMO coming out is being compared to WoW it seems, and this is just a sign of the lack of innovation, I am waiting for a game to come out that can't be compared to any other MMO on the market and leaves you speechless the first time you play. The Reproduction is the game that I think will finally do this for me, and it likely won't have anywhere WoW type sub numbers, but among the community and people that are already following it, it will be a work of art to be enjoyed for many years.

 

The lack of innovation though is what is really killing MMO's, many players are waiting for a truly unique experience that isn't like anything on the market, that's what is truly lacking is no one has taken much risk in the MMO industry in the past 8 years, and it shows by the number of games that can't survive under the subscription model because their initial player base gets the feeling of been there done that and moves onto the next shiny game only to find those developers cloned WoW yet again.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Yinata

[TKMaster]

Stop trying to make WoW.

Stop comparing your game to WoW.

Stop trying to appease the WoW crowd.

Stop thinking the only meaning of success is 10 million.

 

until then, yea, dead end.

 

You realise theres dozens of MMO's released every year that does exactly what you say.....and no one notices.

[Tic-]

You realise theres dozens of MMO's released every year that does exactly what you say.....and no one notices.

 

I didn't say it guarenteed success. As a matter of fact, chances are slim you will have it in my opinion.

 

If i had 300 million (or whatever) dollars, the last place i would invest it is in MMOs, and its my hobby. As for the ones no one notices, what was their starting cost? Are they trying to build a hugely succesful MMO on a shoestring budget?

 

I live in Rhode Island, when i saw what Schilling and my local government were doing with my tax dollars.. well i got slightly depressed at the situation.

 

That said, there are games out there that do more than ok for themselves.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Tic-

[EcrirTwyLar]

You realise theres dozens of MMO's released every year that does exactly what you say.....and no one notices.

 

That's because they aren't produced by 'A' list game companies.

 

I personally think a new MMO needs to find it's own niche and accept that they most likely will not attract the same number of subs as WoW. I would have liked it if SWTOR was more sandbox. I think there are more people now days that are interested in sandbox games. There have been several successful single player sandbox games now. Think about Red Dead, GTA, and even Minecraft.

Edited August 11, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[asbalana]

It just seems like any MMO that comes out today eventually loses so many of their subscriptions and popularity from when it first comes out. I get the impression that this is the worst genre to make a game for. It seems impossible to satisfy today's MMO players. I blame WoW for this. WoW came out during a time when MMO competition wasn't as fierce, and a lot of MMO concepts hadn't been established yet. Eventually it took off to massive popularity. As time went on, they continually dumbed the game down more and more, and continually added features. Somehow it still remains the most popular MMO.

 

Every MMO that has launched since WoW has not seemed to fare that well, with the best doing "ok" in the market. It is a cycle that I have seen constantly for years. People get all excited about a new MMO coming out. They set their expectations impossibly high. They expect the MMOs to have everything that WoW has. Thing is WoW has had so much time to add these features, and people have stuck with that game all this time. It seems MMO players today are not willing to do that. They want a ridiculous amount of features in their MMO and they want it NOW. So people always say the next MMO will kill WoW, and when it doesn't have this ridiculous amount of features that they expected, they quit the game. Then the cycle continues and people say the next MMO will be the one to "kill WoW" and then they are disappointed once more.

 

I guess my main question is... Is there even any point to making an MMO in today's market? Is there any profit in it? Do you really think GW2 will do any better than SWToR, or Rift, or the other MMOs that have come out since WoW? IMO this game seems to be dying, but can any MMO besides WoW really thrive in today's market? I assure you, GW2 will not be the WoW killer or the end all be all to MMOs. I feel that the problem lies with the market and not the games. The MMO crowd is now impossible to satisfy, impossible to satiate. It's not only this game that is dying, it is the genre itself.

 

My response to your main question is yes, an MMO can succeed today (and actually make a ton of bucks).

 

To do so it has to do two things that I am not sure that I see yet in any mmo out there (WOW came closer than any for a while pre Cata, but even so fell way short). The first is that it has to play well and provide a good feeling while playing. The second is that it has to address the actual desires of the general market.

 

So in my humble opinion, if they build it the players will come. It seems that the industry is controlled by a very limited number of people (and companies) and they just don't get it. There is a difference between building a bad inadequate product and the desire for the product itself. As you noted, there is always great excitement for a new MMO before launch, so the potential is there. Unfortunately, when people see what is launced there is a let down and a short time later a massive exodus. That is not because of the MMO market or interest in MMOs, but rather a testimony to the quality of the product delivered and the degree to which it addresses the majority of player's desires.

[Aricus]

Right from the get go, you need new people funding your game.

 

You don't need 10 million subscribers to be a success. Again, look at EvE, does it have even a half a million subs? I don't believe so, but its a great success (in my opinion, and i don't play).

 

Perhaps you shouldn't be targetting the WoW playerbase exclusively if your concerns are wether or not they will be happy.

 

I don't have all the answers, but i see what these knuckleheads seem to do over and over again.

 

If you can't come up with something even slghtly orginal, fun, and interesting, save your time, and money, we already know the outcome, and even then, your chances may not be very good at a "success".

 

 

EvE has about 450k subs close to 1/2 a million. You also have to realize that EvE was released in 2003 and developed years prior therefore their cost were much lower than new MMOs coming out today or recently which means they can have a lower subase and still generate lots of income. The same can be said with UO and it only has about 100k players now days.

[Aricus]

Just wondering how many players they got these days and hows the end game?

 

Rift has about 250k subs. As for endgame I don't know, stopped playing it about a year ago.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aricus

[Briq]

I personally think a new MMO needs to find it's own niche and accept that they most likely will not attract the same number of subs as WoW. I would have liked it if SWTOR was more sandbox. I think there are more people now days that are interested in sandbox games. There have been several successful single player sandbox games now. Think about Red Dead, GTA, and even Minecraft.

 

this is pretty spot on...there really are 2 options facing developers in the MMO genre:

 

option 1: to go up against wow.... go all in with an enormous budget and make a huge game with all the expected bells and whistles while trying to offer something unique.

 

option 2: make a game with a much smaller budget that has familiar elements while offering some unique additions.

 

SWTOR went with option 1, their unique element being story and voice over, but never really delivered with the "expected bells and whistles" they put all their eggs in the story and voice over, but the game play suffered.. to be fair tho, any game company choosing to take option 1 is in for an uphill battle to say the least.

 

Rift is an example of a game that went with option 2.. Trion made a solid game with modest budget(by comparison) a groundbreaking spec system and constantly dynamic interactive world.

[Moatcarp]

Maybe they need to stop trying to make WoW, and make their own MMO.

 

They have... and nobody buys them.

 

IE. The Secret World

[Aricus]

this is pretty spot on...there really are 2 options facing developers in the MMO genre:

 

option 1: to go up against wow.... go all in with an enormous budget and make a huge game with all the expected bells and whistles while trying to offer something unique.

 

option 2: make a game with a much smaller budget that has familiar elements while offering some unique additions.

 

SWTOR went with option 1, their unique element being story and voice over, but never really delivered with the "expected bells and whistles" they put all their eggs in the story and voice over, but the game play suffered.. to be fair tho, any game company choosing to take option 1 is in for an uphill battle to say the least.

 

Rift is an example of a game that went with option 2.. Trion made a solid game with modest budget(by comparison) a groundbreaking spec system and constantly dynamic interactive world.

 

Rift follows option 1 more than 2. The only thing trion added differently was the spec system and the rift events. However, outside of that you pretty much have WoW written all over it. The Pvp gear grind, and the pve gear grind from raids and dungeons. However, I cannot speak for the recent updates since I stop playing a year ago, but at launch Rift was pretty much WoW.