Discussion concerning DoTs vs Cleanse

[foxmob]

cleansing assault vanguards/pyro PTs is mostly pointless. if hib/rs isn't avail, they'll reapply with the instant (ion pulse and its equivalent). five seconds is too long between cleanses to survive a PT. I don't mean that you'll be dead before a second cleanse, but if you use that gcd to cleanse, then you're not healing and you're not slowing the attacker down in the least (1 gcd max). in other words, you will ALWAYS be susceptible to hib/rail.

 

they need to be taunted and healers need to be guarded. that's pretty much the long and short of it as things stand. I'm not sure that's a terrible thing, but it's annoying as hell when I can't keep someone else up when I'm free to cast (not a problem with sentinals but vans can often burst through faster than I can heal).

 

having been on both ends of this fight (the healer and the vanguard), I'll say that the vanguard should win every time if it remains 1v1. he has enough stuns and interrupts to take down any healer solo. and the nerf that a spammable cleanse would do to watchman is a pretty strong deterrent.

 

some possibilities:

• make cleanse spammable but costly (as in incendiary)
  
• nerf vanguards lightly in that the chance to apply plasma cell with hammer shot is ~20% and down to 50% for ion pulse (leave incendiary alone as a guaranteed application of a fire dot but a costly one - 3 ammo)
  

 

i prefer the latter option because it makes other dps classes a little more acceptable in rated, but ppl will prolly ***** cuz it's a nerf. as for watchman...well...they'd probably ***** about the former, but 3 ammo without a chance to spec it cheaper would be a powerful incentive for healers NOT to abuse it.

Edited August 9, 2012 by foxmob

[anwg]

Therefore the solution is to make PT dots harder to apply since they're both powerful and spammable. A short cd or simple combo requirement would be nice, especially since delay causes many times where I have cleansed, they haven't reapplied and instead use their next GCD to Railshot me, despite me not having an actual debuff, just residual visual flames.

 

It's already harder than most, as it has 10 meter range.

[Daiyukie]

It's already harder than most, as it has 10 meter range.

 

Pull, and perma snare? Longest stunlock duration too. I don't see how it's harder

[anwg]

Pull, and perma snare? Longest stunlock duration too. I don't see how it's harder

 

If you get pulled stun him and run away. Perma snare? If barely lasts longer than the GCD.

Edited August 9, 2012 by anwg

[Ashania]

The talent to add a heal and a further ability to cleanse physical/mental debuffs should really allow you to cleanse everything. Lore or whatnot aside, it's really annoying being unable to cleanse an operatives Sever Tendon slow and other tech effects on my Sage. Sage's seem to get a raw deal in the cleansing department, they can baseline cleanse mental and force whilst speccing into physical, whilst Scouns/Ops/Commandos/Mercs cleanse physical and tech as a base. The only real trouble as the non-force class is Force Crush and the Guardian/Jugg AoE slow are uncleansable, yet they are able to cleanse a Sent/Marauders bleeds and the accompanying slow as a baseline, something only Sage/Sorc can do if specced into.

 

Ideally the talent should allow for all effects cleansable, possibly remove the CD but don't add a heal and increase the base resource cost for the ability.

 

That being said, I swear by the cleanse ability and make sure I cleanse everything, although I don't even bother cleansing a PT/VG dots as it will just be applied straight after whilst your cleanse is on CD.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Ashania

[UGLYMRJ]

The talent to add a heal and a further ability to cleanse physical/mental debuffs should really allow you to cleanse everything. Lore or whatnot aside, it's really annoying being unable to cleanse an operatives Sever Tendon slow and other tech effects.

 

That being said, it's really pointless cleansing a PT/VG as it will just be applied straight after whilst your cleanse is on CD.

 

I was thinking the same thing... I feel like it would be time wasted against a PT. In theory it makes sense but as often as PT's are hitting flame burst to proc the rail shot. I would think that a healer could be more effective in other ways.

[Pistols]

Pull, and perma snare? Longest stunlock duration too. I don't see how it's harder

 

LMAO @ perma snare.

 

I mean...really?

[Ashania]

I was thinking the same thing... I feel like it would be time wasted against a PT. In theory it makes sense but as often as PT's are hitting flame burst to proc the rail shot. I would think that a healer could be more effective in other ways.

 

It is a waste of a GCD, you just have to bend over and take the rail shot like a man.

[Brool]

I was thinking the same thing... I feel like it would be time wasted against a PT. In theory it makes sense but as often as PT's are hitting flame burst to proc the rail shot. I would think that a healer could be more effective in other ways.

 

you are right it does proc a lot, but even so that one clense could prevent a rail shot long enough to maybe get a bubble up and a heal. Its a tough subject, but I do feel the cleanse should clear all harmful effects.

[UGLYMRJ]

you are right it does proc a lot, but even so that one clense could prevent a rail shot long enough to maybe get a bubble up and a heal. Its a tough subject, but I do feel the cleanse should clear all harmful effects.

 

True.... it's a thin line.

 

And I agree... maybe it would promote the use of it beyond ranked. I hardly see it anywhere else.

[Brool]

True.... it's a thin line.

 

And I agree... maybe it would promote the use of it beyond ranked. I hardly see it anywhere else.

 

most people are too stupid to pay attention of when to use it. then again there is a lot of stuff to watch out as a healer in pvp. people life, your location, peoples life, the pt's chasing you around, peoples life, your life, the node because people are too stupid to defend it themselves, peoples life, the concealment op stun lucking you, peoples life, your respawn timer.

 

;p

[Daiyukie]

LMAO @ perma snare.

 

I mean...really?

 

If I'm not burning the whole time I'm playing a bad PT. What's the snare tied to? There you go.

[Master_Nate]

I was thinking the same thing... I feel like it would be time wasted against a PT. In theory it makes sense but as often as PT's are hitting flame burst to proc the rail shot. I would think that a healer could be more effective in other ways.

 

I agree in it being a waste of time since they can re-apply it rather quickly. If/when I do cleanse it it's mainly to cleanse myself, use evasion to make sure they haven't reapplied it that quick, then stealth back out. On top of that, if I am pulled to them I'll use one of my stuns. That is about my only defense against them but I'm fine with that as I am a healer and it's their job to kill me just like it is my job to steer clear of them and help out my team

 

Everyone has brought up really good points in regards to this though and come to find out I'm not the only person to have it on my mind. I don't expect them to change these abilities anytime soon, or ever really, but regardless I think this topic is one left out when it comes down to fighting off some of the classes that people claim are OP. I agree with those who say it is a waste of time on cleansing PT/VG because of their instant abilities to apply it is so quick, but that was my basic reasoning for opening this thread to discuss some ideas/alternatives that the community have on cleanses vs dots, if any.

 

If I have the energy and it's a PT vs another player and I'm there to help them out, that is when cleanse seems to help out. I can stun the PT, cleanse my teammate and heal them up thus hopefully putting them back into the fight. When it's chaos all around, this is when cleanse is basically neglected in my healing of others. I would like to see them do something in regards to Sorc's Purge though just to help out the imbalance but unfortunately I do not think that change will happen.

 

Thanks again for the good, constructive feedback.

[UGLYMRJ]

most people are too stupid to pay attention of when to use it. then again there is a lot of stuff to watch out as a healer in pvp. people life, your location, peoples life, the pt's chasing you around, peoples life, your life, the node because people are too stupid to defend it themselves, peoples life, the concealment op stun lucking you, peoples life, your respawn timer.

 

;p

 

LOL!!!

 

Exactly why I will do no more than off heal if possible. The life of a DPS is simple in comparison.

[Brool]

LOL!!!

 

Exactly why I will do no more than off heal if possible. The life of a DPS is simple in comparison.

 

so true. We've got a noob in our guild that is dps spec'ed sorc. I see him trying to heal people all the time and I keep telling him "STOP HEALING EVERYONE AND SHOOT PEOPLE WITH LIGHTNING! You are not specc'ed for it and the time spent trying to pretend to be a healer, you could of killed the person doing the damage."

 

He's got shiny syndrome but we love him.

[UGLYMRJ]

I agree in it being a waste of time since they can re-apply it rather quickly. If/when I do cleanse it it's mainly to cleanse myself, use evasion to make sure they haven't reapplied it that quick, then stealth back out. On top of that, if I am pulled to them I'll use one of my stuns. That is about my only defense against them but I'm fine with that as I am a healer and it's their job to kill me just like it is my job to steer clear of them and help out my team

 

Everyone has brought up really good points in regards to this though and come to find out I'm not the only person to have it on my mind. I don't expect them to change these abilities anytime soon, or ever really, but regardless I think this topic is one left out when it comes down to fighting off some of the classes that people claim are OP. I agree with those who say it is a waste of time on cleansing PT/VG because of their instant abilities to apply it is so quick, but that was my basic reasoning for opening this thread to discuss some ideas/alternatives that the community have on cleanses vs dots, if any.

 

If I have the energy and it's a PT vs another player and I'm there to help them out, that is when cleanse seems to help out. I can stun the PT, cleanse my teammate and heal them up thus hopefully putting them back into the fight. When it's chaos all around, this is when cleanse is basically neglected in my healing of others. I would like to see them do something in regards to Sorc's Purge though just to help out the imbalance but unfortunately I do not think that change will happen.

 

Thanks again for the good, constructive feedback.

 

Marking this in calendar....

 

August 9th, 2012.

 

Had a constructive thread in PvP forums

 

All joking aside.... my original comment was made from experience so maybe this next one won't make sense since like I said. I don't heal. But what if cleanses stuck on the target for 2.5 seconds. I only say 2.5 since the CD was 5 seconds I believe you said. A small adjustment but it would definitely put a spin on things as far as DPS goes. Especially from a PT.

[Brool]

Marking this in calendar....

 

August 9th, 2012.

 

Had a constructive thread in PvP forums

 

All joking aside.... my original comment was made from experience so maybe this next one won't make sense since like I said. I don't heal. But what if cleanses stuck on the target for 2.5 seconds. I only say 2.5 since the CD was 5 seconds I believe you said. A small adjustment but it would definitely put a spin on things as far as DPS goes. Especially from a PT.

 

ya surprising to me to we had a constructive non argumentative non nerf thread happen.

[UGLYMRJ]

so true. We've got a noob in our guild that is dps spec'ed sorc. I see him trying to heal people all the time and I keep telling him "STOP HEALING EVERYONE AND SHOOT PEOPLE WITH LIGHTNING! You are not specc'ed for it and the time spent trying to pretend to be a healer, you could of killed the person doing the damage."

 

He's got shiny syndrome but we love him.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Has he ever considered respec'ing? LOL!

 

It's funny though... I've seen that too. Part of what I like about the class though. Those heals come in handy but there's something nice about being able to keep someone alive and then striking them down with lightning. I'm def not healing everything that gets hit tho... LOL. Almost all of my healing stats come from keeping everyone covered in static barrier.

 

Damn, I can't wait to get outta work.

[UGLYMRJ]

ya surprising to me to we had a constructive non argumentative non nerf thread happen.

 

And PT's were mentioned without a nerf comment soon to follow.... did everyone unsub? Are we the only ones left? Has the SWTOR apocalypse finally come?

[Ashania]

And PT's were mentioned without a nerf comment soon to follow.... did everyone unsub? Are we the only ones left? Has the SWTOR apocalypse finally come?

 

If you want a PT nerf suggestion, perhaps bringing the CGC proc down to the RNG that Merc pyros have to deal with. That will make a cleanse more useful.

[UGLYMRJ]

If you want a PT nerf suggestion, perhaps bringing the CGC proc down to the RNG that Merc pyros have to deal with. That will make a cleanse more useful.

 

WTH!!! A sensible idea, that's actually on topic, yet still a nerf call....

 

I'm at a loss for words...

 

Well played...

Edited August 9, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[bobmcbo]

No CD on cleanse would hurt watchman dots to much I think, their dots are not instant.

 

as a lethality operative I know that if that would happen, I was have ridiculously low DPS in pvp. I think operatives are useless enough for dps as it is.

[ekimmak]

Ok, I'm not an expert with a pyrotech powertech, but I think I've played enough to give some feedback.

 

No cooldown on cleanse is definitely too much. Plasma cell is either randomly applied, or costly in heat, so having those cleansed the instant they're applied is going to hurt, a lot. Incendinary Missile is also pretty expensive, and only any good if it lasts the full duration.

 

On the other hand, while increasing the number of effects cleansed would help someone being mobbed by effect inducers, it wouldn't help against pyrotechs, because at maximum, you only ever have three effects, which are plasma cell, incendinary missile, and explosive dart/thermal detonator (the slow from plasma doesn't always work for me, and doesn't last too long).

 

Personally, I think a combination of reduced cooldown, increased effects removed, or removing all types would be a good boost.

[Master_Nate]

Marking this in calendar....

 

August 9th, 2012.

 

Had a constructive thread in PvP forums

 

All joking aside.... my original comment was made from experience so maybe this next one won't make sense since like I said. I don't heal. But what if cleanses stuck on the target for 2.5 seconds. I only say 2.5 since the CD was 5 seconds I believe you said. A small adjustment but it would definitely put a spin on things as far as DPS goes. Especially from a PT.

 

This is another interesting idea that could be put into practice after some testing of course, probably one of most "fair" answers to come up in this thread so far, imo. Like I said earlier, instant cleanse would really be too OP etc.

 

To apply a cleanse and to have that target immune from a debuff while that cleanse is running, even if the duration is small, as you suggested. I think this idea would change a lot of things PvP wise, whether they be good or bad is hard to say unless tested out. But I think it could affect the way classes handle in a lot of scenarios. I mention testing it out because as we all know, things get implemented and not all the affects are understood until after it's implemented and goes months without being addressed leaving some with a bad taste to "why" it was done.

 

The changing of something like that would need some consideration and some input on the impact of other classes as my intention is to not take anyone down from where they are but to balance out others to make things more balanced for all who like to PvP. It's not even strictly an imbalance issue to me, but more of a tweak to bring others up to the same level, making static teams less mandatory.

 

Lol, yes this is one of the first times I have been involved in a thread and haven't seen many people going back and forth exerting their opinions over another. That makes this thread, for the moment, an enjoyable one. I see many of you post throughout the day and was hoping some of you would stop in here with your ideas and I'm glad you all did. Again, thanks to all for sharing

[Master_Nate]

as a lethality operative I know that if that would happen, I was have ridiculously low DPS in pvp. I think operatives are useless enough for dps as it is.

 

You bring up a very good point as well, not the useless part but breaking your DPS down even more. I can't give any feedback on that particular spec because I have never experienced using it. That's one spec I did not think of

 

I have to agree with you though, that could be detrimental to your class and that's not what I would like to see happen. More tweaking to these ideas is in order Still very good stuff here.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Master_Nate