Cross healing and Guard.

[Raansu]

Cross healing is getting to be a seriously headache in this game. It shouldn't take 5 people to kill a damn healer because of all the cross healing topple that with guard and its just stupid. There needs to be diminishing returns on cross healing and guard needs to have its effectiveness reduced at least down to 30%. Having it at 50% on top of allowing taunts to stack with it adding it to 80% is just stupid.

 

I've defended this game like crazy but I seriously think I've had enough.

[Mularky]

So when a team works together to keep their healer alive and when the tank taunts to reduce the damage taken you think that is cheap.

[Raansu]

So when a team works together to keep their healer alive and when the tank taunts to reduce the damage taken you think that is cheap.

 

No but I do feel taunts stacking with guard is a bit much. It shouldn't take 5 people to deal with a tank+healer combo especially an operative healer who can spam hots all day. If they are going to let taunts stack with guard then guard needs to be reduced a little bit.

 

It's the same with crosshealing. No one should ever jump from 5% to 90% in a matter of seconds from cross healing. **** healing in general is still too strong. 1v1 a healer can stalemate a dps. I do it all the time with my merc healer. I can even get a /laugh in between heals. Hell I can hold off 2 sentinels most of the time. For every crit they hit me with I heal for just as much. My heals should never 100% negate the damage being done. Even I can see how stupid that is.

[Jesin]

No but I do feel taunts stacking with guard is a bit much. It shouldn't take 5 people to deal with a tank+healer combo especially an operative healer who can spam hots all day. If they are going to let taunts stack with guard then guard needs to be reduced a little bit.

 

It's the same with crosshealing. No one should ever jump from 5% to 90% in a matter of seconds from cross healing. **** healing in general is still too strong. 1v1 a healer can stalemate a dps. I do it all the time with my merc healer. I can even get a /laugh in between heals. Hell I can hold off 2 sentinels most of the time. For every crit they hit me with I heal for just as much. My heals should never 100% negate the damage being done. Even I can see how stupid that is.

 

I am guessing that you don't have a clue as to how to deal with this then?

[Asunasan]

If it takes 5 of you to kill a single tank and healer one or both of them are better than you. If there are additional healers why is surviving against multiple players a problem? Edited July 26, 2012 by Asunasan

[darksidechemist]

Players working as a team to keep each other alive, achieve objectives and win. How dare they....

[Henu]

im loving these forums more and more each day... in this case i wont say L2P im just going to say GIVE UP.... go to another game... be gone.... 5 v 2 and you cant win???? give up now..

[Aurojiin]

1v1 a healer can stalemate a dps.

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

 

How weak do you want healers to be, exactly?

[Cindarstorm]

More like, 1v1 a decent healer can stalemate a bad dps.

[Raansu]

im loving these forums more and more each day... in this case i wont say L2P im just going to say GIVE UP.... go to another game... be gone.... 5 v 2 and you cant win???? give up now..

 

Who said anything about not winning. We win pretty much every game. Still doesn't change the fact that it takes too much to take down a tank+healer combo.

 

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

 

How weak do you want healers to be, exactly?

 

No, there is nothing reasonable about that. Healers should give an advantage to a team not outright negate dps output. Healing should always heal for slightly less then dps.

[Daiyukie]

No but I do feel taunts stacking with guard is a bit much. especially an operative healer who can spam hots all day. If they are going to let taunts stack with guard then guard needs to be reduced a little bit.

 

Yeah you go make an Operative healer and tell me how "spamming HoTs" against 5 DPS focusing works out for you buddy. I'll wait.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Daiyukie

[Raansu]

Yeah you go make an Operative healer and tell me how "spamming HoTs" against 5 DPS focusing works out for you buddy. I'll wait.

 

I don't need to. I see our own scoundrel healers surviving multiple DPS all the damn time. Even they admit that their healing is OP.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Raansu

[Daiyukie]

I don't need to. I see our own scoundrel healers surviving multiple DPS all the damn time. Even they admit that their healing is OP.

 

Not by spamming HoTs they don't =p Instant heals and HoTs aren't keeping anyone alive vs 5 DPS, EMP will crit for around 3k and doublestack HoT ticks will crit for about 1.4k every 3 seconds I think it is. I haven't actually counted the seconds, but that rate of healing is NOT going to keep you up unless you have Guard on and your tank AoE Taunts all 5 DPS, which lasts a grand total of 6 seconds.

 

So you can slow your rate of demise, sure, but if 5 people are coordinated against you, it should take 5 people coordinating to stop the enemy 5, which is pretty much the reality. You need other guys interrupting/peeling/stunning while your tank mitigates as best he can and the healer kites and heals as best he can, which is called teamwork and that counters the other team's teamwork. Imagine that!

 

All by myself, I can barely stay alive against one well-played Warrior on me because I get stunned and rooted and interrupted. As soon as someone throws a wrench into his plans, though, it's far easier for me to get a nice 6k crit heal off on myself and then escape and that concept scales up just fine.

[Vaipyr]

No but I do feel taunts stacking with guard is a bit much. It shouldn't take 5 people to deal with a tank+healer combo especially an operative healer who can spam hots all day.

 

If it takes 5 people to kill 1 tank + 1 healer (meaning 5v2) then those 5 people are beyond bad.

 

This actually IS a L2P issue.

[Atrummos]

... and guard needs to have its effectiveness reduced at least down to 30%. Having it at 50% on top of allowing taunts to stack with it adding it to 80% is just stupid....

 

I disagree entirely. Guard is fine. Healers working together is fine (and in fact good play on their part).

 

However, I believe a suitable 'fix' to the healer / guard issue comes not from teams that, say, run 2 healers and a dedicated tank but from the groups running 3 healers and dps in tank stance.

 

That is something that gripes me. And, to be fair, you can't blame the players for doing so. It is the most viable method of running with 3 healers as the DPS lose minimal damage in tank stance and can help relieve the pressure on the healers being focus fired.

 

And no, Bioware, the way to fix that is NOT to nerf tanks' damage output again. That will only hurt those tanks running as a dedicated tank, playing their role as it was meant to be played.

 

The only real way to eliminate the endless 'dps in tank stance' players we see in WZs is to make a talent further up the tank tree that either increases the amount of damage siphoned via guard, or have tank stance require a certain number of points up the tank tree.

 

Nerfing healing and/or tanks is not the answer.

[Laforet]

Im a healer and i HATE guard, although i admit it makes for a very turtly style of game and its frustating for some DPSers.

 

The problem of guard is that it is a no brainer, the tank guards the healer and.... thats it, he stands there.

 

Taunts for example are different, you gotta know when to taun,it takes a more proactive approach to use them and im all about it.

 

They should trash guard, make it a 10% damage protection buff and thats it, transfer the survivability crutch to the healers themselves increasing our expertise back to decent levels and damage reduction CDs for the healing classes.

 

What tanks would do then, if guard is nerfed?

 

Easy, lock all taunts to the specific tank stance of each class. Trooper has to cast to change stance and cant dps with it, AFAIK dps assasins lose force when change stance and make guardians lose all focus/rage when they change stance.

 

Healers would have more survivability on their own and they would have to be intelligent to use their new defensive cooldowns not just stand there being guarded and casted facetanking like a moron.

 

Tanks would have their place, guard would be a marginal protection but they would be stunchy node guardians and taunters.

 

DPS would be DPS plus whatever utility they have, no more taunts for dps stance tho, its just silly really.

 

It would boil down more to proactive player skill than just the fact of "being guarded".

 

Any game who relies on "fire and forget uncounterable stuff" is boring and has a low skill cap.

 

Cross healing has no solution tho, learn to control the fight and swtich zerg. =p

Edited July 26, 2012 by Laforet

[Daiyukie]

Im a healer and i HATE guard, although i admit it makes for a very turtly style of game and its frustating for some DPSers.

 

The problem of guard is that it is a no brainer, the tank guards the healer and.... thats it, he stands there.

 

Taunts for example are different, you gotta know when to taun,it takes a more proactive approach to use them and im all about it.

 

They should trash guard, make it a 10% damage protection buff and thats it, transfer the survivability crutch to the healers themselves increasing our expertise back to decent levels and damage reduction CDs for the healing classes.

 

What tanks would do then, if guard is nerfed?

 

Easy, lock all taunts to the specific tank stance of each class. Trooper has to cast to change stance and cant dps with it, AFAIK dps assasins lose force when change stance and make guardians lose all focus/rage when they change stance.

 

Healers would have more survivability on their own and they would have to be intelligent to use their new defensive cooldowns not just stand there being guarded and casted facetanking like a moron.

 

Tanks would have their place, guard would be a marginal protection but they would be stunchy node guardians and taunters.

 

DPS would be DPS plus whatever utility they have, no more taunts for dps stance tho, its just silly really.

 

It would boil down more to proactive player skill than just the fact of "being guarded".

 

Any game who relies on "fire and forget uncounterable stuff" is boring and has a low skill cap.

 

Cross healing has no solution tho, learn to control the fight and swtich zerg. =p

 

Guard swapping is just as proactive. The tanks that slap Guard on the healers and leave it there when it's the DPS getting focused are bad Tanks.

[Vaipyr]

Tanks would have their place, guard would be a marginal protection but they would be stunchy node guardians and taunters.

 

And what place would that be? Zero damage + hardly any self-survivability (tanks have to be babysat by both DPS AND healers in order to be effective) with 2 taunts and a few CC's? Tanks would need a major damage boost (they already do imo, as they are unable to even apply "pressure" to a single player at all).

 

Don't get me wrong, I do tend to agree that guard is "boring" as far as a mechanic goes. But currently it's the ONLY thing tanks have going for them. Guard is the only reason NOT to just bring another DPS to help burn down priority targets faster currently.

 

My own thoughts about tank damage is that it should come from the short range conal or aoe-bubble type attacks. To reward actually sticking by your healers and forcing the melee zerg to disperse. Similar to the 5 stack Pulse Cannon "tactics tank" currently.

 

TLDR: Guard is the only reason NOT to just bring another DPS instead of a tank currently. Something else needs to be done to fix tanks if we're to get rid of this "boring" mechanic.

 

*BTW, guards/juggs already lose all force when changing stances. No big deal if you played a Pre-wotlk prot warrior as that's pretty much how stance dancing worked then as well. On my guard I stance dance between both my Vig +6% damage increase stance and my tank stance often as needed. Actually makes the class fun as a tank instead of a boring taunt/guard-bot*

[NoTomorrow]

The healers will tell you that it is balanced. They will also tell you that you need to

careful coordination of CC

 

what a horrible joke. Cross healing is the plague of SWTOR PvP and it must die. It is the reason why we have 30 minutes matches on Civil war with both sides being unable to capture the middle for the entire freaking match.

 

Cross healing is the reason why certain specs are not viable for PvP because we all damn have to spec into heavy burst damage, otherwise we cannot kill a damn healer.

 

But again, you will see in this thread an army of healers that thing it is ok in warzone for nobody to die and everything end up in a freaking stalemate.

 

And what the hell is with all these skills in every healer tree that increase healing received????

 

It's not enough that for me as Ranged DPS it's already a tough fight against all the LoSing, but i have to deal with guarding as well. It's the reason why i had to level a PT Pyro just so I can punish this ridiculous healing spam. Pyro at least can follow the healers behind the corner and put an end to their miserable existence.

Edited July 26, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[babykahna]

The healers will tell you that it is balanced. They will also tell you that you need to

 

 

what a horrible joke. Cross healing is the plague of SWTOR PvP and it must die. It is the reason why we have 30 minutes matches on Civil war with both sides being unable to capture the middle for the entire freaking match.

 

Cross healing is the reason why certain specs are not viable for PvP because we all damn have to spec into heavy burst damage, otherwise we cannot kill a damn healer.

 

But again, you will see in this thread an army of healers that thing it is ok in warzone for nobody to die and everything end up in a freaking stalemate.

 

And what the hell is with all these skills in every healer tree that increase healing received????

 

It's not enough that for me as Ranged DPS it's already a tough fight against all the LoSing, but i have to deal with guarding as well. It's the reason why i had to level a PT Pyro just so I can punish this ridiculous healing spam. Pyro at least can follow the healers behind the corner and put an end to their miserable existence.

 

 

 

LOL a stalemate because you can't kill a healer? your team must be bad. If it were my team we'd focus on your dps first rather than your healers. By taking out the dps that is better than simply chain healing a healer. And I don't know what sorta fail team can't down a healer with 5 dps on him. Barely takes 3 of the dps on my team to down a healer quickly enough.

 

Hell the trick isn't even to kill a healer. Its to down the dps while having one person interrupt heals constantly whether its a marauder or PT.

 

 

Its amazing to listen to all these posts about healing being OP. I wish I could play more of these teams. To play a team where 5 of their DPS can't down a healer simply because of a guard and a chain heal? Ahhh...what a dream that would be. It would be an easy quick win because obviously such teams wouldn't have the common sense to swap dps onto the healer that isn't guarded or dump an interruptor on the second healer. Obviously such teams wouldn't have half the brain to move off the guarded healer and focus instead on the dps killing their own healers and themselves.

[babykahna]

Healers would have more survivability on their own and they would have to be intelligent to use their new defensive cooldowns not just stand there being guarded and casted facetanking like a moron.

 

not sure what sorta dps you play. the dps i play usually interrupt me one after the other so there is no chain casting and certainly no standing around like a fool to take all that damage. with multiple dps and their interrupts there is almost zero chance to cast at all unless its insta casts which are usually all low amount heals. There is no facetanking thats for sure.

[NoTomorrow]

LOL a stalemate because you can't kill a healer? your team must be bad. If it were my team we'd focus on your dps first rather than your healers. By taking out the dps that is better than simply chain healing a healer. And I don't know what sorta fail team can't down a healer with 5 dps on him. Barely takes 3 of the dps on my team to down a healer quickly enough.

 

Hell the trick isn't even to kill a healer. Its to down the dps while having one person interrupt heals constantly whether its a marauder or PT.

 

 

Its amazing to listen to all these posts about healing being OP. I wish I could play more of these teams. To play a team where 5 of their DPS can't down a healer simply because of a guard and a chain heal? Ahhh...what a dream that would be. It would be an easy quick win because obviously such teams wouldn't have the common sense to swap dps onto the healer that isn't guarded or dump an interruptor on the second healer. Obviously such teams wouldn't have half the brain to move off the guarded healer and focus instead on the dps killing their own healers and themselves.

 

You must have a look on that scoreboard screenshot provided by carthy. he did alone 1,2 million damage, healers healed for a total of 3,8 million. More than 2 healers on both sides. Neither side could capture the middle point. So good luck focusing the dps. Good luck killimg a a marauder with cloak of pain, saberward, undying rage and force camo.

 

Pls refrain from suggesting fail tactics that only work against bad players.

Edited July 26, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[So-low]

No, there is nothing reasonable about that. Healers should give an advantage to a team not outright negate dps output. Healing should always heal for slightly less then dps.

 

This is such a horribly incorrect statement. What would be the point of rolling a healer for pvp if you went into every warzone knowing that you had no chance against any dps who wanted to single you out? How could healers be an advantage to a team if they can be not only completely locked down by a dps, but also destroyed?

 

And it is completely ridiculous to say that 2 dps should be able to kill a tank + healer combo. If that were true, what would be the point of bringing in a tank + healer combo who would be killed, when you could bring in 2 dps who had a fighting chance?

 

Sounds like yet another "lets bring 8 DPS and WTFPWN everythign" argument.

[babykahna]

You must have a look on that scoreboard screenshot provided by carthy. he did alone 1,2 million damage, healers healed for a total of 3,8 million. More than 2 healers on both sides. Neither side could capture the middle point. So good luck focusing the dps. Good luck killimg a a marauder with cloak of pain, saberward, undying rage and force camo.

 

Pls refrain from suggesting fail tactics that only work against bad players.

 

 

no idea what screenshot you are talking about. i see none in this topic.

 

and yeah i've been in plenty of games where the middle node isn't captured at all. and it certainly isn't because the healers were there the whole game. Its because both sides never died down far enough for one to take it. And if two teams decide to take more than 2 healers on each side to a warzone then that is simply their choice. Obviously its bloody defensive and I have seen a 3 guard 3 heals composition but its by choice to have that style of play. However it doesn't change the fact that guard and healing are fine as it is especially considering that healing already has so many nerfs to it while dps has gotten every buff since. What do the DPS want? a 100% dmg increase and a debuff on healing the reduces healing by 100%? Get real.

[nkitch]

Separate the tank from the healer with a push/KB then stun/root them guard only has a 8m range.