To the Anonymous Insider

[Shingara]

On 1.4? Please link these videos and interviews.

 

and

just to scratch the surface.

[Jjix]

IF BioWare tried to copy WoW, they did a poor job of it. It is in some ways better than WoW, but falls short in other ways.

 

I never played WoW, so I wouldn't know if Bioware tried to copy WoW. But what I do know is that BEFORE WoW the idea of lone-wolf games were a complete anathema, the belief was people play online in order to play together. Furthermore, there was a high level of regard for creating virtual worlds rather than linear story lines. What I also can say is that this began to change in games made AFTER WoW, and suddenly the emphasis became on providing tons of solo content and questing. Game world's no longer felt open to exploration, but rather things with particular areas that you belonged in according to your level and through which you progressed in a very orderly manner.

 

I read that statistical research found that WoW players spent the majority of their time soloing, and I believe many developers, or companies, took this to mean that players ultimately care about the solo experience primarily. Game after game after game -- most of which were made under the radar of the devoted WoW community -- came out trying the same formula of questing and being solo friendly. With the failure of each I wondered if someone would question this philosophy, but then the next game would come out following the same pattern.

 

SWTOR looked at the failure of the 'solo-online' philosophy and concluded that those other games just hadn't embraced it fully enough, they were still holding too much onto old, pre-WoW ideas. I even read SWTOR developers suggest as much. In other words, SWTOR took this whole philosophy -- which really has been the main philosophy of the MMO world since WoW -- to the final extreme, short of eliminating the ability to group at all, because it was convenient for them to believe in it. If all players REALLY want a solo experience, who better than Bioware, the kings of the solo rpg, to move into the MMO market? They believed it because SOLO is what they do.

 

The failure of SWTOR marks, to me, the end of what I consider the WoW generation. Whether WoW ever invented this philosophy I cannot say, but for other games this period has been shaped by a believe that soloing and questing are God and that WoW proved it so. That time is over I think.

 

The next generation begins with GW2.

[DarkZeron]

and

just to scratch the surface.

 

Are we assuming here, everything they talked about next, next is part of 1.4?

[Arkerus]

I never played WoW, so I wouldn't know if Bioware tried to copy WoW. But what I do know is that BEFORE WoW the idea of lone-wolf games were a complete anathema, the belief was people play online in order to play together. Furthermore, there was a high level of regard for creating virtual worlds rather than linear story lines. What I also can say is that this began to change in games made AFTER WoW, and suddenly the emphasis became on providing tons of solo content and questing. Game world's no longer felt open to exploration, but rather things with particular areas that you belonged in according to your level and through which you progressed in a very orderly manner.

 

I read that statistical research found that WoW players spent the majority of their time soloing, and I believe many developers, or companies, took this to mean that players ultimately care about the solo experience primarily. Game after game after game -- most of which were made under the radar of the devoted WoW community -- came out trying the same formula of questing and being solo friendly. With the failure of each I wondered if someone would question this philosophy, but then the next game would come out following the same pattern.

 

SWTOR looked at the failure of the 'solo-online' philosophy and concluded that those other games just hadn't embraced it fully enough, they were still holding too much onto old, pre-WoW ideas. I even read SWTOR developers suggest as much. In other words, SWTOR took this whole philosophy -- which really has been the main philosophy of the MMO world since WoW -- to the final extreme, short of eliminating the ability to group at all, because it was convenient for them to believe in it. If all players REALLY want a solo experience, who better than Bioware, the kings of the solo rpg, to move into the MMO market? They believed it because SOLO is what they do.

 

The failure of SWTOR marks, to me, the end of what I consider the WoW generation. Whether WoW ever invented this philosophy I cannot say, but for other games this period has been shaped by a believe that soloing and questing are God and that WoW proved it so. That time is over I think.

 

The next generation begins with GW2.

 

Translation:

 

"SWTOR didn't cater to MY needs, so I will call it a failure and post some hyperbole about how their analysis was incorrect. I like the old MMOs where grouping was forced and the learning curve was steep. This game doesn't do that so I am going to post on the forums about it. GW2 is my new go-to game but soon I will be complaining on their forums as well."

[ConanArthurLager]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/07...yoffs-rumored/

 

... So we are all pretty upset here. we know Daniel and Jimmy many more are next round of layoffs. EA blames us and to some extent they're right to. but it was fan feedback from the day we opened the forums that encouraged us to design it for the fans the way it is and that included making it more like Kotor then an MMO like Wow. ...

 

 

They blame the players? And they made it more like Kotor? What does Kotor bring to the table?

 

• You can build your character according to a D20 ruleset (a mix of levels and skills, but the bioware version had some limited options). To those that don't know D20. It has some similarities to D&D 3.5 edition rules. DDO and NWN show how much character customization is posssible with such rulesets.
  
• In Kotor you couldn't have only conversations with quest givers but also with lots of other NPCs (e.g. merchants).
  
• Kotor offered more than just 3 dialog options on conversations, despite having voice acting as well.
  
• Kotor allowed you to train your party members ("companions") as well. If that was too cumbersome for you the system could handle that for you.
  
• The hacking profession offered more interesting options (e.g. using surveillance cameras to look beyond closed doors, activate a facility's defenses on successful hacks, etc.).
  
• Despite the limited crafting options Kotor's crafting felt like it involved the player more (at least Kotor2 had more options than Kotor1). Go to a workbench, dissassemble some stuff, reassamble some stuff, etc.). In SWTOR you just send your companions on a mission and that's it.
  
• You had more combat options with a party of 3 (yourself and two "companions") in regards to strategy and tactics. In SWTOR you just have to hope that your only companion doesn't mess up too much.
  

 

That's only a few things that come to mind. If Bioware would some day release a Kotor3 I might still be tempted to buy it.

Edited July 23, 2012 by ConanArthurLager

[Gunju]

I must be a sucker, I guess. I believe that post has a lot truth in it. I really do believe the fans or so called fans , have helped RUIN this game. These forums by far are the most vile plague of self entitlement Humans I've ever seen in a MMO. Yes BW made a few mistakes with features that should have been in game at the start. But they pumped out these much needed thing's a lot faster then any mmo ever has.

It's sad really, everyday I hop on forums I see the same crying little spoon fed babies , making more insane useless babbling garbage posts. Then it makes it MUCH worse to think, these are full grown adults.

 

If and when I even quit , it will be because of this trash community, not BW.

[Lundli]

Either the so called "insider" is an idiot or the article author is.

 

I'm thinking both

 

 

These forums by far are the most vile plague of self entitlement Humans I've ever seen in a MMO.

 

And this

Edited July 23, 2012 by Lundli

[MasterKayote]

They blame the players? And they made it more like Kotor? What does Kotor bring to the table?

 

• You can build your character according to a D20 ruleset (a mix of levels and skills, but the bioware version had some limited options). To those that don't know D20. It has some similarities to D&D 3.5 edition rules. DDO and NWN show how much character customization is posssible with such rulesets.
  
• In Kotor you couldn't have only conversations with quest givers but also with lots of other NPCs (e.g. merchants).
  
• Kotor offered more than just 3 dialog options on conversations, despite having voice acting as well.
  
• Kotor allowed you to train your party members ("companions") as well. If that was too cumbersome for you the system could handle that for you.
  
• The hacking profession offered more interesting options (e.g. using surveillance cameras to look beyond closed doors, activate a facility's defenses on successful hacks, etc.).
  
• Despite the limited crafting options Kotor's crafting felt like it involved the player more (at least Kotor2 had more options than Kotor1). Go to a workbench, dissassemble some stuff, reassamble some stuff, etc.). In SWTOR you just send your companions on a mission and that's it.
  
• You had more combat options with a party of 3 (yourself and two "companions") in regards to strategy and tactics. In SWTOR you just have to hope that your only companion doesn't mess up too much.
  

 

That's only a few things that come to mind. If Bioware would some day release a Kotor3 I might still be tempted to buy it.

 

Exactly, even if it was true that we asked for KoTOR 3 they didnt listen then either. This game is more like WoW than anything else. The only KoTOR I get from this game is the story. Nothing else in this game is riminescent of KoTOR (well, ok, Star Wars too).

 

I like this game and all ... ive said multiple times that its the best MMO out there for me currently, but IF its a failure, then its definitely not because its "too much like Kotor."

 

P.S Ive been following this game since day 1 on the forums (2008) and dont remember any significant argument for making this game like Kotor. Even the haters who didnt want it to be an MMO at all were swiftly shot down by most of the community. So I have no idea what this writer is talking about. Hes full of it ... plain and simple.

 

P.S: After reading the article im thinking its full of it. Just more F2P propaganda prpbably full of lies too and totally misinformed.

 

A) swtor.com was open and had a forum since Oct 2008 at least! Not 3 months before release.

 

B) As I said above ive been a part of that community since then and never recall "make it like KoTOR" to be a hot topic ... ever. You'd think an (ex?) Bioware employee would know this.

 

Not saying itll never happen but this game is far from having the subs low enough to warrant f2p. Id even say the game is growing now with the free trial, and 1.3. When it gets down to 5 low/standard sized servers, like lotro had, then we'll talk f2p. For now, they stand to lose money by going f2p.

Edited July 23, 2012 by MasterKayote

[NasherUK]

Doesn't suprise me really. The big name publishers/corporations (like EA) always pull that kind of crap. The guys at the top always assume they are correct and the customers and employees are idiots. Then they act all confused as to why they don't get the kind of figures they were expecting at the end of the year.

 

Then the fat-cats decide it's the developer's fault (or even the customers for "not knowing what they want"..) so sacks half of them, because in their own minds it can't possibly be their own bad decisions that are the problem. Basically they pass down the blame to the people who don't have enough influence/money to defend themselves. Rince repeat for the next project.

 

This can also be applied to governments...

Edited July 23, 2012 by NasherUK

[Wraiven]

ROFL! This is why the forums for this game can be more fun than playing the game. Thanks for the hearty chuckle.

 

I'm going to make that comment my sig. When this game goes free to play, I'll be sure to look you up for an apology.

[Coriolan_Martius]

They blame the players? And they made it more like Kotor? What does Kotor bring to the table?

You can build your character according to a D20 ruleset (a mix of levels and skills, but the bioware version had some limited options). To those that don't know D20. It has some similarities to D&D 3.5 edition rules. DDO and NWN show how much character customization is posssible with such rulesets.

In Kotor you couldn't have only conversations with quest givers but also with lots of other NPCs (e.g. merchants).

Kotor offered more than just 3 dialog options on conversations, despite having voice acting as well.

Kotor allowed you to train your party members ("companions") as well. If that was too cumbersome for you the system could handle that for you.

The hacking profession offered more interesting options (e.g. using surveillance cameras to look beyond closed doors, activate a facility's defenses on successful hacks, etc.).

Despite the limited crafting options Kotor's crafting felt like it involved the player more (at least Kotor2 had more options than Kotor1). Go to a workbench, dissassemble some stuff, reassamble some stuff, etc.). In SWTOR you just send your companions on a mission and that's it.

You had more combat options with a party of 3 (yourself and two "companions") in regards to strategy and tactics. In SWTOR you just have to hope that your only companion doesn't mess up too much.

 

This!

 

And don't forget:

 

1) No pazaak or swoop racing (fun mini games)

2) No dialog choices that allow you "force persuade" for extra money or to skip combat

3) No ability to kill potential companions (e.g. Julanni)

4) No ability to gain influence and "turn" your companions (KOTOR 2)

5) No unlocking Jedi from force sensitive companions

6) No real quest chains for companions that unlock if you take certain actions

Most epic being

the trial on Manaan

 

7) Shocking plot twists ... aka

 

player turned out to be Revan

 

 

I could go on and on. So I disagree with the article. If anything this game is too little KOTOR and too much WoW. I would happily pay for a quarterly installments of KOTOR stories with some coop / social activities thrown in ... and EA can stuff the raiding and PvP "where it don't shine".

[SirRobin]

“EA blames us and to some extent they’re right to. But it was fan feedback from the day we opened the forums that encouraged us to design it for the fans the way it is and that included making it more like Kotor then an MMO like Wow,” he stated mentioning that gamers actually wanted SWTOR to be more like Knights of the Old Republic (KOTOR), a single player role playing game by Bioware before it was acquired by EA, rather than World of Warcraft (WoW).

-http://blogs.bettor.com/Anonymous-Bioware-Insider-blames-fans-for-SWTOR-Video-Games-Update-a173317

 

Meh... If its authentic, then it is just another example of BioWare not being able to "get it" when it came to designing and making an MMORPG. Though like with Gordon Walton and JTL, its easier to make up excuses like "RPG players just don't do 3D well," instead of accepting that you just didn't do it right.

 

Additionally, I don't see why everyone keeps thinking TOR will go F2P when EA's last "flagship" MMORPG, Warhammer Online, still isn't F2P and it crashed a lot harder than TOR has.

Edited July 23, 2012 by SirRobin

[Razot]

Hi, i currently work on the side for nasa. i would just like to inform you that in 1974 we were invited by aliens to a meeting in space, we had to build a space station as our atmosphere is deadly to them. All technological advances we have had since 1976 are a direct result of this alien race who i cannot name due to fear of my life so i cannot tell you my real name to prove who i am.

 

This is all soo true, honest im an insider.

 

High ranking Government Official insider here..... SHHHHHHH!!!!!

[Jjix]

Translation:

 

"SWTOR didn't cater to MY needs, so I will call it a failure and post some hyperbole about how their analysis was incorrect. I like the old MMOs where grouping was forced and the learning curve was steep. This game doesn't do that so I am going to post on the forums about it. GW2 is my new go-to game but soon I will be complaining on their forums as well."

 

It is all relative, right? Nothing any gamer says matters because it is only opinion and all opinion is meaningless? Except, of course, your opinion about the opinions of others . . .

 

Is it just opinion that SWTOR's numbers are down? Is it just opinion that the game is struggling? There has to be a reason for this . . . and if your "reason" is that gamers are whiners and that is why . . . well, isn't that saying exactly nothing?

[LordHazanko]

That's right bioware can't take the blame for their own mistakes, they must pond them off to us, and claim its our fault, cause as long as its not their fault then "nothing" is wrong. Right Bioware? Thanks for taking my money along with so many other customers money and claiming all the problems of this game is our fault and has nothing to do with you at all, being the creators any everything.... Bad move on your end, you don't derserve jobs, I hope the game does die off and you all get fired and live under a bridge like hobos.

 

Sincerly yours,

A greatly disappointed customer.

Edited July 23, 2012 by LordHazanko

[Feeblezak]

Anonymous Bioware insider is some bitter coffee-boy who got laid off last round of layoffs. So now he makes up bullcrap for interviews. Edited July 23, 2012 by Feeblezak

[Ansalem]

I don't get why people are even bothering to listen to what this clown said in the blog article. Its absolutely ridiculous stuff the author can't even get his facts straight on how much was invested in the game, when the website launched, and the amount of players playing. He refers to it as the Tortanic which I find humorous...also the biggest blunder? what is this guy smoking?

[xandax]

Not that the game is going well (for me) - but frankly .... anonymous and on the internet means made up.

[Wraiven]

I remember reading these forums long before I even became a member of them (And I have been around for quite some time) and I remember players requesting this to be in Sandbox Form, not Theme Parked. I remember players asking for open space, in sandbox form, not space on rails. I remember players asking that they control the outcome of the game through their actions, not being controlled for you no matter what choices you make.

 

If (and I mean "if") what this guy says is true, then I call BS on Bioware and who they blame.

[HarleysRule]

To be fair, the blogger is the moron that said the game cost $500M and that the forums opened on Sept 12 2011, not the alledged BW employee.

 

Given the devs attitude towards the players, it wouldn't suprise me if they really blamed us for this game's underwhelming performance. They couldn't even be bothered to reply to feedback on 1.3 changes...but I'm sure that's our fault, too.

[Jjix]

Not saying itll never happen but this game is far from having the subs low enough to warrant f2p. Id even say the game is growing now with the free trial, and 1.3. When it gets down to 5 low/standard sized servers, like lotro had, then we'll talk f2p. For now, they stand to lose money by going f2p.

 

Games, like everything else, are evolving. The reason the community is so "vile" and torn is precisely because different factions want the world of gaming to move in different directions. Everyone has an opinion because everyone has a deep relationship to gaming. But all the argument are an illusion, because where it is moving is pretty much inevitable. One of those inevitabilities, I think, is free2play. Pay2play is too 20th century in its outlook. And therein lies the problem with SWTOR, it is a new game following old models, most likely because a huge budget creates conservative thinking.

[Goretzu]

And thats because pure sandbox and pure themepark do not exist beyond a few games and most of them within single player simulator, you have an mmo and the game is part of both. sandbox elements and themepark mixed, the only difference is the slider on which they lean closer towards.

 

 

Well yeah, I'd say it's impossible to make a pure sandbox game, or a pure themepark one really.

 

But some games are much more (or less) "sandy" than others.

[LordHazanko]

To be fair, the blogger is the moron that said the game cost $500M and that the forums opened on Sept 12 2011, not the alledged BW employee.

 

Given the devs attitude towards the players, it wouldn't suprise me if they really blamed us for this game's underwhelming performance. They couldn't even be bothered to reply to feedback on 1.3 changes...but I'm sure that's our fault, too.

 

true that, its always our fault

[Mallorik]

Any game dev that makes a game acording to their fanboys wishes are idiots.

 

The second i heard that the devs refused to add a combat window to the game i knew they had no idea what they were doing and unless they were replaced the game was in serious trouble.

 

That thought was later confirmed when they denounced dual specs, lfg tools and cross server tech.

[Feeblezak]

Games, like everything else, are evolving. The reason the community is so "vile" and torn is precisely because different factions want the world of gaming to move in different directions. Everyone has an opinion because everyone has a deep relationship to gaming. But all the argument are an illusion, because where it is moving is pretty much inevitable. One of those inevitabilities, I think, is free2play. Pay2play is too 20th century in its outlook. And therein lies the problem with SWTOR, it is a new game following old models, most likely because a huge budget creates conservative thinking.

 

F2P is not an evolution. It is a cancerous tumour growing on the inside of a throat.