To the Anonymous Insider

[Descent]

Any good developer knows that the player is not always right (this isn't retail).

 

We could point fingers all day, but ultimately, Bioware was in control of the development process; and therefore they are responsible for delivering what has emerged as a bad game.

[Senden]

Don't know how BW can pass the blame.. they never listened to us at all. From day one they said they were making the game they wanted to. If they had listened to us, maybe they'd have acted on the fact the worlds all seem dead and lack any sort of soul.

[DarthMaulUK]

People are mistaking a MMO for a WoW.

I want a new MMO bioware not a new WoW.

 

This.

We already have Wow(and hundreds of clones) and they have ALL failed to topple WoW in terms of numbers. Before Bioware did anything, the first question they should have asked themselves was -

 

"Why would I want to leave a game that I have invested 4-5 years of my life playing?"

[ImperialSun]

If they'd taken the best bits of SWG (and not the bad bits), a dash of the best bits for WAR (RvR and PvP mechanics) and the best bits of SWTOR, then they'd have had a truely astounding game.

 

This ^^....

 

I'm struggling to believe that anyone thinks of the 'insider' post as credible though...

 

Driz

[Shingara]

This.

We already have Wow(and hundreds of clones) and they have ALL failed to topple WoW in terms of numbers. Before Bioware did anything, the first question they should have asked themselves was -

 

"Why would I want to leave a game that I have invested 4-5 years of my life playing?"

 

No one will ever beat wow at there own game its as simple as that, wow has such a back catalogue on content and features that no one could compete with it simply due to time constraints, yes companys can get close to what they have now but by the time they got to what they have when they started to create it wow has moved on and thus moved the goal posts yet again.

 

Near everyone is bored to tears of the grudge and grime of getting this armour and then must do content for the next armour, not for the content itself though, they do new content for new gear. Once content in this enviorment has been 'farmed' so everyone is geared then that content is irrelivent and dead content. to those players.

 

This added with the fact that wows core fanbase are fanatics and bliz could burn there house down and they would never leave, so no matter what you do they wont leave wow for another game so trying to tempt them is a waste of resources. Part of that core specifically buy games with the intention of never leaving wow and just discrediting the new game on the block to defend wow.

 

Bioware need to take the theme they have now which even if they say its not is a geargrind and add extra elements to it. if they do not and simply try to keep up with wow they are doomed to fail at getting any bigger then they are right now. And i totaly agree with you, there are hundreds of games that do the exact same thing as wow and have failed or stagnated, some survive others have disapeared into the dust of time.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shingara

[Redat]

This. Well said. IF BioWare tried to copy WoW, they did a poor job of it. It is in some ways better than WoW, but falls short in other ways. IF they had taken the best parts of WoW and then added what TOR has which is better, then TOR indeed would have been a much better game.

 

What am I reading? I was under the impression (from the QQ on the forums anyway) that players have been screaming for "WoW" features for months, almost turning this game into a badly done WoW homage. Why is it now, after all this wasted time and effort that, wait, no we dont want another WoW......Kids are fickle and dont know what they want, and EA is asking players about the direction of the game? Blind leading the blind.

[Shingara]

What am I reading? I was under the impression (from the QQ on the forums anyway) that players have been screaming for "WoW" features for months, almost turning this game into a badly done WoW homage. Why is it now, after all this wasted time and effort that, wait, no we dont want another WoW......Kids are fickle and dont know what they want, and EA is asking players about the direction of the game? Blind leading the blind.

 

Simply due to strength of voice, the ones that shout the loudest are the ones generally heard. not all people were screaming for a wow clone but the majority on the forums in the start were mainly the generation that had only ever had wow. People back then that were enjoying the game were not on the forums, they were ingame playing the storys.

 

Anyone back then that countered the we must have more features like X, or saying these are standard features in the industry were pummeled to death. If anyone even mentioned alterantive gamestyles or features even now gets such a reaction that it detters others from speaking up.

[turjake]

This.

We already have Wow(and hundreds of clones) and they have ALL failed to topple WoW in terms of numbers. Before Bioware did anything, the first question they should have asked themselves was -

 

"Why would I want to leave a game that I have invested 4-5 years of my life playing?"

 

Because you get eventually bored? Ofcourse you wont after that pick another game which offers just the same.

[DarthMaulUK]

Because you get eventually bored? Ofcourse you wont after that pick another game which offers just the same.

 

Indeed. I think if Bioware asked that question before starting out, it wouldnt drop 700,000 players in such a short space of time.

 

SWTOR should have and needed to offer something different and not just 'story'. Development was way too safe. I dont like WoW its simply dull but yet its changed the face of MMO gaming for the worst - as developers now think that this is the formula people want - WRONG!

[SvnStrSlm]

This. Well said. IF BioWare tried to copy WoW, they did a poor job of it. It is in some ways better than WoW, but falls short in other ways. IF they had taken the best parts of WoW and then added what TOR has which is better, then TOR indeed would have been a much better game.

 

I think most people wish all new mmos could launch with close to 10 years of live ingame feedback and developement. My god some people will just never understand. Game is fun, I have not cleared all the content and am enjoying PVP and PVE. I will say crafting is lame but then again i could really give a poop about crafting in any game. Vanguard had amazing crafting. Game is young and will contiue to mature. To the OP you basicly just dont like the game for what it is so you are doing the right thing. y not playing. just dont linger around the forums talking about how much you dislike stuff. Not to mention if you have geared out all of you guys and companions if bh gear you have way to much time for a new mmo. you should go play something with a few more years under its belt.

[Valkirus]

The people that wanted to play KOTOR 3, GOT to play KOTOR 3 and left. Many others were forced into a linear leveling experience that was nothing more than an interactive movie with no MMO or end game at the end. Who is left are the players that wanted to play an MMO, although many like myself wanted an MMO (NOT KOTOR 3) and got to the end, yes the end, and there was nothing.

 

The story was great. The voice acting was great, but I hated that it was voice acted at all. I CAN READ, THANK YOU. I WANT to read. Same difference between a movie and a book, the book is ALWAYS better, you get to imagine the voices yourself, make them into your own character, your own version.

 

One of the biggest mistakes was the on rails class questing system. I am not saying it was not a cool experience, it was, but it was like playing a single player game and this huge investment into exclusive class story/quest lines was at the expense of storylines and quests that everyone can do. This on rails exclusive class system with nothing else available took out a large chunk of what could have made an open world where you get to roam around and do what quests you want to do.

 

You were also all but forced to do every, single, quest. ALL of the Bonus series', simply because you needed the XP. XP was pretty scarce to find, and this is coming from a veteran EQ2, AOC, WOW, RIFT player. It is as if they made all the quests, then got out their calculator and divided the total xp to get to 50 by the number of quests in the game, total. Terrible.

 

If you want more story you have to start over, and play a different class. This is counter to the point of an MMO, persistence for the sake of progression of your character. I dont want to play every single class to get ANY more story.

 

I got my BH to 50 and it wasn't the fantastic leveling experience many claim. It was a lonely experience. I even leveled with good friends and it was a PITA to organize all three of us to go here and there and then find out that so and so has to get to this point in their class quest to pick up this other quest so everyone can progress together at the same time. Much time was spent on our own part of the map doing small class quests to get to bosses where we all trudged to each others boss to help. Very single player and tedious.

 

Open world and quest system that everyone regardless of class can access, not on rails exclusive storylines that force you to abandon your character and start over to experience other content.

Gameplay, not Voice acting

MMO, not tacked on multiplayer. (it is as if none of the developers ever played an MMO, SOOO many basic features missing, still missing.)

 

Very well said. This is exactly my experence also. Great game experence up to the end of level 50 played as KOTOR 3. But serously lacking in terms of wanting to do any long time investment as a MMO. And this basically what I tell others now asking about it. Buy the game, play one class to level 50..enjoy the experence, but be careful about subbing. Do only one month at a time. Because for many it turned out to be a great single player game. But not worth a sub.

[Valkirus]

What point?? WoW has a system that gives them a much better overall UI.

 

If you choose not to use it, thats your fault.

 

It's like me saying WoW story is better because I choose not to do SW:ToR story

 

My fault? Lol! I donot think I have made any mistake by not using any mods in WoW. Should'nt have to or is it needed. I enjoy and still play WoW with it's default UI. I allways look at any games for comparision as they are. Not how they can be if modded. That said, I would prefer if WoW's was customizable like TOR's is. And why it is not is Blizzard's fault. BioWare has made some mistakes, but not allowing mods/addons in the game is certainly not one of them in my opinion. I fully support that decision.

[Redat]

Simply due to strength of voice, the ones that shout the loudest are the ones generally heard. not all people were screaming for a wow clone but the majority on the forums in the start were mainly the generation that had only ever had wow. People back then that were enjoying the game were not on the forums, they were ingame playing the storys.

 

Anyone back then that countered the we must have more features like X, or saying these are standard features in the industry were pummeled to death. If anyone even mentioned alterantive gamestyles or features even now gets such a reaction that it detters others from speaking up.

 

QFT!

 

I myself have been a more than vocal supporter of new and innovative ways to make an MMo more appealing HOWEVER, making SWTOR into a WoW homage is not the way to go. Many WoW players came here and were utterly gutted that this game does not have the same features, etc, we've seen it for months over the forums......but if this formula was sooooooo good why leave WoW?

[Shingara]

QFT!

 

I myself have been a more than vocal supporter of new and innovative ways to make an MMo more appealing HOWEVER, making SWTOR into a WoW homage is not the way to go. Many WoW players came here and were utterly gutted that this game does not have the same features, etc, we've seen it for months over the forums......but if this formula was sooooooo good why leave WoW?

 

And you hit on the key thing, they arnt after wow now or the wow thats coming, they are after wow then, be it either vannila, tbc or wrath. They dont want panda and pokemon wow with stripped down talents so as they know that there is no way on earth that blizzard will back down they are migrating from game to game to try and recreate what they had before in new games.

 

And they care not what it will do to the game and dictate to people who want a new game that there way of playing, how they want to play or what they want in game is either not possible or somehow doesnt fit as we are in war and isnt consistant with a game even though the game hasnt been out a year and has no consistancy yet,

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shingara

[HarleysRule]

IIRC the people demanding a SWG clone were the loudest voices prelaunch. They were also the loudest ragequitters in January when they were somehow shocked this wasn't a SWG clone, despite the fact the devs were quite clear this was going to be a standard themepark game with the added 4th pillar of story.

[Shingara]

IIRC the people demanding a SWG clone were the loudest voices prelaunch. They were also the loudest ragequitters in January when they were somehow shocked this wasn't a SWG clone, despite the fact the devs were quite clear this was going to be a standard themepark game with the added 4th pillar of story.

 

Thats false, infact swg was a themepark game with sandbox elements, if you cant see that then you do not understand what themepark or sandbox are. The loudest were the ones calling for addons, recount and a content level equal to wow, arenas etc etc etc.

 

Infact the only difference is that swgs 4th pillar was sandbox elements.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Shingara

[DarthTHC]

I'm not buying that this is any sort of insider. There's nothing really compelling in the article. Any troll with a modest level of experience playing MMOs could have written that. Heck, it seems to have even less intelligent content than I could fabricate and I'm certainly not an insider.

[DarthTHC]

My fault? Lol! I donot think I have made any mistake by not using any mods in WoW. Should'nt have to or is it needed. I enjoy and still play WoW with it's default UI. I allways look at any games for comparision as they are. Not how they can be if modded. That said, I would prefer if WoW's was customizable like TOR's is. And why it is not is Blizzard's fault. BioWare has made some mistakes, but not allowing mods/addons in the game is certainly not one of them in my opinion. I fully support that decision.

 

Wow, found a spot we differ in opinion!

 

A moddable UI is going to become a key, expected feature in any modern MMO. WoW set the bar. TSW has it. It will be interesting to see if ESO does it.

 

There are certainly ways to abuse a moddable UI, but they can be policed effectively. For example, Blizzard did a pretty good job of policing them - they kill them quickly enough when they're clearly exploits.

 

This is yet another example of, "What were they thinking?!?!?!?' brought to you by the BioWare Austin devs. They got a lot right with this game but I think their hubris led them to get so much more wrong. You have to ship with the expected features then build your cool new stuff (story/voiceover in this game's case) on top of that. Just like you can't expect fantastic smart phone connectivity in your car's stereo to sell it if it has manual steering, manual brakes, manual windows, and no air conditioning, so should you not expect story and voiceover to carry the day in a game whose features are 8+ years behind the curve.

[DarthMaulUK]

I'm not buying that this is any sort of insider. There's nothing really compelling in the article. Any troll with a modest level of experience playing MMOs could have written that. Heck, it seems to have even less intelligent content than I could fabricate and I'm certainly not an insider.

 

Only time will tell if this is true or not. Either way with the EA investor call looming this week, they must be crapping themselves with the huge drop in subs. Especially as those with 6 month subs would have lapsed. Despite EA throwing everything at this with free trials, free months, extra days plays etc - you simply cant polish a t**d

[Tmanarl]

Fans have called him out and claim that Bioware is just pointing fingers for their own failure as they opened the official forums on September 12, 2011 where as the game came out three months later on December 20, 2011. It is hard to believe that three months worth of fan feedback could influence the game that was in development since 2006.

Where the hell is he getting this information from?? Pretty sure I've been a member since October 2008, and the official forums opened on October 21st, 2008, NOT the September date that was quoted in the original article.

 

Either the so called "insider" is an idiot or the article author is.

[DarthTHC]

Only time will tell if this is true or not. Either way with the EA investor call looming this week, they must be crapping themselves with the huge drop in subs. Especially as those with 6 month subs would have lapsed. Despite EA throwing everything at this with free trials, free months, extra days plays etc - you simply cant polish a t**d

 

Six month subs aren't gone yet. With the free 30 days EA gave away to pad the numbers for the last investor call, the 6-month subs that started on Day 1 are active until mid August. I'm interested in seeing the numbers though.

 

Where the hell is he getting this information from?? Pretty sure I've been a member since October 2008, and the official forums opened on October 21st, 2008, NOT the September date that was quoted in the original article.

 

Either the so called "insider" is an idiot or the article author is.

 

What do you mean by "or"? Can't it be both?

Edited July 23, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Valkirus]

Wow, found a spot we differ in opinion!

 

A moddable UI is going to become a key, expected feature in any modern MMO. WoW set the bar. TSW has it. It will be interesting to see if ESO does it.

 

There are certainly ways to abuse a moddable UI, but they can be policed effectively. For example, Blizzard did a pretty good job of policing them - they kill them quickly enough when they're clearly exploits.

 

This is yet another example of, "What were they thinking?!?!?!?' brought to you by the BioWare Austin devs. They got a lot right with this game but I think their hubris led them to get so much more wrong. You have to ship with the expected features then build your cool new stuff (story/voiceover in this game's case) on top of that. Just like you can't expect fantastic smart phone connectivity in your car's stereo to sell it if it has manual steering, manual brakes, manual windows, and no air conditioning, so should you not expect story and voiceover to carry the day in a game whose features are 8+ years behind the curve.

 

It is ok to disagree. The one problem I have with mods/addons is...they can become so heavily used, the content encounter will become much more complicated , because the developers know the player base will be using them to make the game easier for them. DBM and Decursive is two which come to mind as a absolutely needed feature by many raiders in WOW. So they feel the need to design the encounter based on that . Thus it will extend over to a lack of not using them being a disadvantage.

 

I need to point out, I have done a lot of raiding without using them. Not up to heroic mode. But back in Vanilla WoW, MC, ZG and AQ for example. And TBC with Kara, Grull's Lair , SC. Same type of raiding in WOTLK, etc. One thing I really enjoy about the raiding in LFR in WoW is no need to use any mods to succeed and no pressure by anyone to use them. Yes the encounters are not as tough as normal and heroic as the rewards are also not as good. But I am ok with that. I can do them at my best times with less hassle.

 

I am one of the few WoW players who has never, not once..had to reset his UI. And it makes me chuckle when they do a big patch and all those I know who use them are having issues until the mod creators come out with update to thier mods for the new patch. It is a time I enjoy poking fun at my friends who use them when they do. It is all done with respectful humor however.

[Goretzu]

Six month subs aren't gone yet. With the free 30 days EA gave away to pad the numbers for the last investor call, the 6-month subs that started on Day 1 are active until mid August. I'm interested in seeing the numbers though.

 

 

I think it's probably too coincidental for this latest batch of silence to not be related to the investor call.

[HarleysRule]

Thats false, infact swg was a themepark game with sandbox elements, if you cant see that then you do not understand what themepark or sandbox are. The loudest were the ones calling for addons, recount and a content level equal to wow, arenas etc etc etc.

 

Infact the only difference is that swgs 4th pillar was sandbox elements.

 

SWG at launch wasn't a sandbox? Oh my...

 

I think it's probably too coincidental for this latest batch of silence to not be related to the investor call.

 

They don't HAVE to give sub numbers, and now that they are surely under 1 million, they probably won't.

Edited July 23, 2012 by HarleysRule

[Shingara]

I think it's probably too coincidental for this latest batch of silence to not be related to the investor call.

 

If you mean silence on the forums that can be down to one of 2 things, the people that came here to bash the game only and never gave it a chance had 3 month subs which coincidently is the exact time the forums became less hate filled by a long way and the second is that people who were activly trolling and attacking people will have built up forum infractions and finaly banned from the forums thus there silence.