VG/PT QQ vs Bad Players?

[Skolops]

If just more people would actually read that and play according to that. Sadly as usual 70% of the people in this thread ignore whats posted and think that heavy armor is a great defense along with our one defensive CD.

 

@skolops range vs melee argument, thats why marauders/sents have a gap closer on a 15 sec CD, a medium duraion slow and force camo...

 

I'm not talking about kiting. I'm talking about the other player circle strafing, running behind you, or even running like a chicken with its head cut off who has no idea how to properly control his character. It's profoundly more difficult to stay within 4m and facing a target doing any of these things than it is to stay within 10m and facing him.

[Twor]

I'm not talking about kiting. I'm talking about the other player circle strafing, running behind you, or even running like a chicken with its head cut off who has no idea how to properly control his character. It's profoundly more difficult to stay within 4m and facing a target doing any of these things than it is to stay within 10m and facing him.

 

Autofacing... seriously...

[Skolops]

Autofacing... seriously...

 

Autofacing?

 

Unless you're referring to some option I've never seen before, I think you may simply be incorrect. If you initiate a channeled ability and an enemy runs behind you, your character will autoface as the ability channels. However, you cannot initiate a channeled or instant ability when you are not facing within a certain degree of the target, and to maintain this at short range requires a certain level of skill.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Skolops

[warultima]

I'm not talking about kiting. I'm talking about the other player circle strafing, running behind you, or even running like a chicken with its head cut off who has no idea how to properly control his character. It's profoundly more difficult to stay within 4m and facing a target doing any of these things than it is to stay within 10m and facing him.

 

10m range is at least 10 times easier to manage than 4m.

30m range is at least 20 times easier to manage than 10m.

 

I like my pyro PT coz I can burst real well, and no forced 4m effective range like on my marauder (I play anni spec).

 

Pyro is one of the few all range capable AC (along with tankasin but their full range really only happens when they got recklessness on). At 4m they are 100% effective, 10m 80% effective, 50% effectiveness if forced at 10+m but I can still do great damage with TD + IR + Railshot + Unload + Rapidshot spam while closing in.

 

I dont count sorc/sniper because they get face melt at 4-10m, and operatives 4m+ attacks are not nearly in the same league as PT Pyros.

Edited July 18, 2012 by warultima

[Twor]

Autofacing?

 

Unless you're referring to some option I've never seen before, I think you may simply be incorrect. If you initiate a channeled ability and an enemy runs behind you, your character will autoface as the ability channels. However, you cannot initiate a channeled or instant ability when you are not facing within a certain degree of the target, and to maintain this at short range requires a certain level of skill.

 

Meant exactly what you said on the channels. And errr, if you really think that- I agree with the positioning regarding ops for certain abilities but otherwise. Well whatever floats your boat there

Thats what the 4m range is for in melee btw, so you have some time to react while the enemy is not already out of range.

I have never felt that being in melee range (as pyros are usually for stockstrike and interrupt) required any amount of skill.

[Fyda]

It was 1v1. PT and Marauders are OP in group PvP. However, they get beaten in 1v1 by scoundrels and shadows. You can't get gear for 1v1 but you can get gear in group PvP, so PT and Marauders ARE op.

[Skolops]

Meant exactly what you said on the channels. And errr, if you really think that- I agree with the positioning regarding ops for certain abilities but otherwise. Well whatever floats your boat there

Thats what the 4m range is for in melee btw, so you have some time to react while the enemy is not already out of range.

I have never felt that being in melee range (as pyros are usually for stockstrike and interrupt) required any amount of skill.

 

You must simply have the talent for it, in that case. Some don't, but can handle 10m (and of course 30m) much better.

[Helig]

A blind, deaf, dumb and retarted monkey could play a marra/sent. All it takes is rage (or the equivilent) and master strike (or the equivilent) which hits at like 10k and which cant be stopped. The whole OP argument is BS. No class is completely kill-proof. Every class is brilliant in the right hands.

 

which was my point

Alas, 90% of FOTM Mara\Sent players are indeed blind\deaf monkeys who think that Camo is a primarily escape maneuver, don't know what Obfuscate is, and that envy the amazing heavy amrour that Jugernauts are wearing, eventhough raw heavy vs medium mitigation bonus difference is around 5%.

 

They get regularly smashed by competent players and cry on the forums that their FOTM class needs buffs because it can't faceroll guarded healers and facetank overwhelming focusfire.

 

Also, lol at unstoppable 10k ravage\master strike. It happens only if every hit crits, and the enemy is significantly outgeared. Usually, it's 4-6k, and the last, most powerful hit is easily avoidable, even if you're being ravaged by a Vengeance Juggernaut, since Unstoppable wears off half a second before the final strike is delivered. It's much less problematic with Marauders, since they obviously don't have Unstoppable, and if they start channelling Ravage straight after the charge, then you likely won't get slow on you if you slap them away and apply your own snare.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Helig

[HettonVir]

I dont think the issue is with the burst DPS. Im totally fine with burst DPS. I think the issue is a couple of things.

 

First, ease of play. Most people have some inflated sense of ego in that they think that the more buttons you have to push, the better they are. While in some cases, I can see their point in others its just amusing. However, Im going to play devil's advocate here. Lets face it, Pyro PT/VG is essentially 4 buttons wash, rinse, repeat. A monkey can play the class with similar effectiveness. Its no fluke that well over half of WZs damage and medal charts are typically topped by Pyro specced VG/PTs. That all being said, Ive stated before that the PT/VG, Shadow/Sin and Mara/Sent are the MOST balanced classes in the game. They shouldnt nerf them. They should bring the rest of the classes in line with those 3. They all have utility, survivability and excellent damage capability.

 

Second, I think most people complain about spammable abilities and heavy armor. Most PTs I see here use the "Our shield is terrible and so is our self heal and heavy armor doesnt mean anything.". Well, I disagree. Your shield is 25% damage reduction and if specced properly, is on an incredibly short CD. FB does entirely too much at once (Slow, DoT, moderate-good damage), heavy armor DOES make a difference (Play a medium or light armor class and you will see it.), you can single target and AoE taunt and you can pull.

 

Im not saying these are bad really but you can see why people complain cant you? Utility + survivability + insane burst DPS makes other classes look useless. Before you respond with "Well, look at assassins survivability!" I say thats really irrelevant. Bioware needs to link the armor to the stance. That would solve the DPS armor in tank stance issue and not punish those that actually play the tank but thats for another thread. The response of "l2p" or "re-roll" is a cop out for those that are afraid to lose the class they either like playing or because they dont wanna see the golden cow taken from them. People enjoy playing what they enjoy. Most people I know dont want to re-roll for a variety of reasons. Yes, snipers/'slingers do crazy burst but who would you rather have in a WZ? A mobile DPS class they can also taunt to save your healers and pull to stop ball carriers or pull an attacker to take a healer out of harms way or a stationary target with a big glowing "HEY I'M RIGHT HERE! KILL ME!" screen in front of them that can be easily LoS'd into near uselessness?

 

I have a PT (level 43) but a gunslinger is my main. I also have a 50 sniper and a 50 assassin (both Valor 70+) that are pretty well-geared so Ive put the time in so I can see it from all points of view. The PT just *feels* like I can do almost anything, even more than my assassin. Again, dont punish PT/Marauder/Assassin players for the fact their class is well designed, work to bring the other classes in line with them.

[LarryRow]

I am really starting to come around to the idea that Pyrotechs are not necessarily OP (they may be slightly OP, but not much), but they are very easy to play. So a relatively unskilled player (and 50% of players are below average in skill!) can get very good results with them. THAT is why they are becoming so prevalent.

 

Some of you believe that classes should be balanced around their maximum achievable output by highly skilled players, and I agree. But I also think it's important to balance around Skill cap or learning curve. The former may be more important, but that's doesn't mean the latter isn't important at all.

 

As we can clearly see, unbalanced skill caps result in the prevalence of the "easy class" and only frustrates below average players (50% of the population!) who chose a harder skill cap class because of preferred playstyle or story reasons.

 

Right now a good Sorc will hold its own against a good Vanguard, but a mediocre Sorc will get obliterated by a mediocre (or perhaps even a lousy) Pyrotech, and that is not acceptable.

[arkzehhh]

Exactly mate, Like someone said earlier, its a rock, paper, scissor system. There really isnt a Over Powered, Win All class. I have no idea why people make classes out to be so...

 

Exactly.

 

+1 for not being the typical forum kid.

 

Most classes can counter another... but when someone get's done 1v1 they log onto here and cry for nerf's because they are bad.

Edited July 18, 2012 by arkzehhh

[arkzehhh]

it was 1v1. Pt and marauders are op in group pvp. However, they get beaten in 1v1 by scoundrels and shadows. You can't get gear for 1v1 but you can get gear in group pvp, so pt and marauders are op.

 

l2p ~~

[Laforet]

Ok, so i have got 50's on both imperial and republic side, currently on Red Eclipse server at the moment, all i ever see when i come on to these forums is bad players complaining that vanguards/powertechs have way to much damage, that they see way to many powertechs, that they are an OP class, that they keep 2/3 shotting them...etc...etc......ETC

 

We did a 1 vs 1 tournament on The Red Eclipse, with all full war hero augmented players, all of them excellent players with full knowlege of there class. Guess who was in the final... 2 shadows

 

Who was in the semi's? 3 Shadows and a Sentinal

 

Quaters? 4 Shadows, 3 sentinals and a Vanguard

 

Anyone see a re-occuring theme here? Im not here to QQ about any class, because whenever I PVP, i dont have any issues beating any class, and i dont have any class that i have a lot of problems with, I just dont understand why people are constantly complaining about VG's/PT's when theres nothing OP about them. They have no cleanses, No good self heals, No invunrability moves, No exit strategies.

 

Each class is excellent in its own right, if you find yourself constantly getting owned by one class, my suggestion is dont look at thats right with that class, look at whats wrong with your play style.

 

opinions please? and please no trolling.

 

Vanguard, Shadows and Marauders are balanced between themselves, i used to play assault pre 1.2 and hes still my favorite alt, i have excellent matchups against shadows and maras, it really boils down to the skill of the player.

 

The problem is that is too easy to play vanguard in the offensive (bang bang rail shot u die now muahaha) but you need good gameplay and kiting when you are actually trained.

 

AFAIK people had a similar tournament in 1v1 on Ajunta Pall server and an assault vanguard won it. It really boils down to the player, what can we do if Red Eclipse has trash vanguards?

 

Vanguard, Tankasins, Maras are terribly OP if compared to any other class but they are perfectly balanced between themselves.

 

If you wanna really wanto to learn how to play a vanguard defensively i suggest watching some of O'ozos videos, they give great insights of the kiting capabilities of the class.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Laforet

[iphobia]

Exactly.

 

+1 for not being the typical forum kid.

 

Most classes can counter another... but when someone get's done 1v1 they log onto here and cry for nerf's because they are bad.

 

Tell me to which classes Sorc is the hard counter to.

I will do it for you, none

 

Now tell me the hard counters to a Sorc.

I will do it for you, Pyro PT, Anni Marauder, Vengeance Juggernaut.

 

Sounds like balance to me.

Edited July 18, 2012 by iphobia

[arkzehhh]

Tell me to which classes Sorc is the hard counter to.

I will do it for you, none

 

Now tell me the hard counters to a Sorc.

I will do it for you, Pyro PT, Anni Marauder, Vengeance Juggernaut.

 

Sounds like balance to me.

 

That is in your opinion. Someone of say 'Higher' skill level can do what you cannot.

All i see is , whine , cry, ,buff Sorc thread's. It's getting old.

Many Sorc/Sage's do very well, but i guess that's just Magical and nothing to do with personal skill level. /Sigh.

 

P.S. Buff Sorc's.

Nerf Operatives.

 

/sarcasm

/thread.

[kjkdollarbanny]

VG and PT are easiest class to play.

when 2 equal skilled players meet each other in a warzone - wins the guy who plays easier class.

PT has white damage and melee destance, so any class can counter then, but it calls for skill.

[mangarrage]

Yea I'm real surprised to see stealth class doing well in 1v1

You have absolutely no point

 

All you see is bad players...and being on Red Eclipse which I am sure over 90% of the players who post about them are not, so you have never seen any of those players play, but they have to be bad

What a sorry post

[furiousferret]

My biggest issue with PT's (outside the fact that there are so many of them) is their poor use of Grapple. On my healer, I've had PT's Grapple a Marauder to me for whatever reason, when I'm dps, I've had a guy we were 2v1'ing grappled away just before a smash.

 

I dont know what it is with Grapple, but I have seen some idiotic pulls.

[TheGreatFrosty]

Yes. A well reasoned, rational and intelligent argument.

 

There is no class imbalance, every class is perfect. What's more, there has never been any class balance issues - ever, in any game. Class balance, as a concept, does not exist.

 

A team of DPS sages will have perfectly equal opportunity to win against a team of 8 Powertechs.

 

There are many butterflies and everything is very gay and pleasant.

 

...

Edited July 18, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[mangarrage]

My biggest issue with PT's (outside the fact that there are so many of them) is their poor use of Grapple. On my healer, I've had PT's Grapple a Marauder to me for whatever reason, when I'm dps, I've had a guy we were 2v1'ing grappled away just before a smash.

 

I dont know what it is with Grapple, but I have seen some idiotic pulls.

 

well yea the worst players are attracted to the easiest class to play. This is no surprise to me

[iphobia]

That is in your opinion. Someone of say 'Higher' skill level can do what you cannot.

All i see is , whine , cry, ,buff Sorc thread's. It's getting old.

Many Sorc/Sage's do very well, but i guess that's just Magical and nothing to do with personal skill level. /Sigh.

 

P.S. Buff Sorc's.

Nerf Operatives.

 

/sarcasm

/thread.

 

And one more guy who seems to be able to see the skill level of a player through his forum posts.

Just because I or a few other guys do well with our Sorcs this doesn't mean the class is fine nor does it mean we haven't got a right to write the truth, that this class is everything but fine.

 

To play a Sorc anywhere near to a useful level the player needs to be actually good, while even a bad-mediocre Pyro PT can get his job done by hitting his 3 buttons.

 

Have you ever played a Sorc without having a tank staying within 10m of you 100% of the time?

If not, stop responding to posts regarding Sorcs.

If so, well, you have any reason to cry for Sorc buffs and Pyro PT nerfs.

Edited July 18, 2012 by iphobia

[Soljin]

This has boiled down to the prospect that PT Pyro/Van Assault is not OP but just simple to play? Kinda seems like the same thing to me.....

 

If you apply half the effort and get twice the result back...That is Over Performance.

 

I play a Smash Jugg...Its the only spec that really shines in the TTK race of these times. Veng is nice for Unstoppable...but thats it.

 

I duel PT's and fight them in WZ's every day. Duel from my perspective is 7 abilities (one defensive) on my opening assault, an additional 7 on the second assault only 1 of which was used in the first rotation...Then I reset with a CC generally. At this point I for the most part die if I have failed to completely shut down the PT/pyro. ( AKA they are still alive and have had a chance to get dmg out).

 

Now ask the PT what they did to kill you and you will get a count of 5 to 6 abilities used during the entire encounter which lead to your quick end.

 

I wont even bother to explain what happens when I fight a PT/Pyro on my Merc in any spec...None of them have a chance.

 

Which brings me to my point...If all the PT/Vans out there really want to avoid the nerf bat...you should really start supporting buffs for the classes that are struggling in PvP...More often then not when Im trying to support an Interupt, and Disengage ability for Mercs its a PT that comes in and starts talking about how Mercs are fine L2P. Along side some of the Mercs that think they are so leet they are blinded.

 

Classes have been repeatedly nerfed due to ease of play in this game..Merc is a prime example and PT is on that same road right now....Better be careful. Merc was never OP they just had a stupidly recognizable ability that they were forced to spam up to 5 times per rotation and due to the visi8bility they now stink.

 

If this keeps up PT/Van will get nerfed period. Im sorry but its just the pattern. If they left their dmg the same yet made it much more complex to achieve that would be fine..and I hope thats what happens rather then PT, BH's last hope being reduced to a Mellee Merc.

[Esiqual]

I am a 50 PT and there are a few things i agree with in this thread and a fair bit i dont agree on.

 

First lets clear up a few things first. Saying a class does too much damage without a comparison or a baseline reference is abit pointless. If you use warzone damage numbers then you are using a bad reference point to highlight the problem. Warzone damage includes all forms of damage including fairly pointless dot damage that keeps applying after death. The only damage number that really matters for PT Pyro specs is railshot.

 

First i agree that our damage output is abit to high on railshot. Every other ability including the CGC is perfectly fine as is. So i would agree to a tone down of railshot by taking away the 30% armour pen in superheated rail and reducing firebug surge talent to 7.5% and 15% respectively. This would effectively reduce burst damage down to more mangeable levels for everyone involved.

 

How i would compensate this is by making this talent instead of reapplying the CGC it would place a weaker version of CGC that does 30% of the a normal CGC damage as a seperate dot on the target that lasts for 6 seconds. This would mean the damage is more spread out and little less bursty. The puncture talent should remain as is for all PT specs to take advantage of.

 

The overall damage would be about the same but have a burst decrease of about 18% when you consider my changes.

[SwordofSodan]

well yea the worst players are attracted to the easiest class to play. This is no surprise to me

I play a BM geared 50 Pyro and I don't consider myself to be a bad player. I also have a BM geared 50 Marauder as well as a BM geared 50 Juggernaut and currently working on a Guardian. Perhaps Bioware should just remove alot of abilities from certain classes and dumb down their rotations substantially? Then the rest of us won't have to read whiney "nerf" posts from immature community cry babies such as yourself because you would now be able to keep up with these, so called, "easy classes" to play. Edited July 18, 2012 by SwordofSodan

[TapSumBatt]

I fail to see your point OP.

 

There is no competative 1v1 in this game. PT/VG outperforms in WZ's.

 

What you fail to touch in your subject is how classes perform in groups, when the very point is to be assisted by your teammates with things you lack, such as recovery in the PT/VG case.

 

Ones heals start streaming the consistant damage and non-challenging way to put it out makes the class somewhat of a standard equipment for any RWZ group. Easy to master and perform with.

 

As I see it, it is BW's lack PvP knowledge. Situational tools has been overlooked in this game. Combat is too much of a cool down race. Once that is mastered (which it is easily by anyone) PvP comes down to button-mashing with very little room for outplaying / outthinking.

 

In this enviroment, PT/VG shines.