Stop making life hard for the tank PuGs

[Leovinus]

To the DPS:

• In groups, kill the weakest mobs first unless directed otherwise by the tank.
  

 

 

I'm actually shocked that this isn't second nature. It took me about 2 minutes running my first FP in this game to realize that the tank would never be able to grab and hold everything, and that if I went all out right away on the biggest target, my face would get eaten.

 

That being said, being dps in a pug means spending the first 10-25% of a flashpoint learning how a particular tank likes to do stuff. There are basic rules that everyone probably ought to follow, but each tank will have their own style, and it's up to the dps to fit themselves into that. I'm fortunate that I don't generally run PuGs and these days the only tank I run with is my wife. But I have seen enough tanks to know they all do things differently, and a good dps will adapt. If you can't lay down force storm, orbital strike or death from above at the beginning of the pull, fear not, it'll still die.

[Blackardin]

Learn to hold aggro

 

Learn to play. ;p

 

Threat is your responsibility, not the tanks there chief. Tanks job it to put out as much threat as is possible and survive, your job as a dps is to manage your own threat so that you do not exceed the tank. Raiding 101.

[Valkirus]

Learn to play. ;p

 

Threat is your responsibility, not the tanks there chief. Tanks job it to put out as much threat as is possible and survive, your job as a dps is to manage your own threat so that you do not exceed the tank. Raiding 101.

 

This is very true. Some seem to have issues with waiting 3 secs for the tank to build up his threat. Impatient dps can ruin a run. Or the tank askes for some CC and the dps breaks it with his aoe. Then when they do, they will complain the tank needs to move the remaining mob away from the CC. Which if they gave him time to, maybe he would.

[Blackardin]

Sounds like a lot of gripes, I have a solution for you, don't pug.

 

It is as simple as that. You can spend your entire life trying to tell people what to do or what not to do in pugs, but you're not going to change the situation.

 

 

What? Punish himself because others, like yourself, refuse to learn the basics of grouping? That attitude represents most of what is wrong with the world. It is how we end up reducing society to the lowest common denominator.

 

These are not "gripes" as you put it. They are the basics of grouping and aggro management. Your unwillingness to learn them, or to support others that will not learn them is no reason for him to stop anything.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Blackardin

[netskink]

I hold threat just fine but making up for wave after wave of fail DPS tends to make one tired. I am to the point I dont even want to tank pugs anymore.

 

As of this weekend, at lvl 50 I have two tanks, two healers and one dps. I do not pug in LFG. In rwz, I form partial pug to fill missing guild slots.

 

I don't have time for dps who are pro yet have nothing to show for it.

[EternalChild]

I do not pug in LFG. I don't have time for dps who are pro yet have nothing to show for it.

Then how do you know that there are such players if you don't PUG? And why are you posting in this thread if you have nothing to say on topic?

[Flyceratops]

5. Don't be in a form that generates threat if you are not the tank!!!!!!

 

6. Don't taunt the boss off the tank!!!!!

To be fair, there is a good time for #6; for whatever reason, the tank could be low on health and that gives them some time to heal the tank. As far as #5 goes, what if the tank dies and you've used your in-combat res on the DPS? A class with tanking capabilities could pick up their aggro stance and tank for a bit. Sure, it's harder, but the win is a lot more likely if someone is tanking.

 

I'm not sure if this applies to operations, since I haven't done them, but at least in heroics a guardian or vanguard dps can tank for a little while.

[DarthTHC]

This is very true. Some seem to have issues with waiting 3 secs for the tank to build up his threat. Impatient dps can ruin a run. Or the tank askes for some CC and the dps breaks it with his aoe. Then when they do, they will complain the tank needs to move the remaining mob away from the CC. Which if they gave him time to, maybe he would.

 

Except tanking is different in this game. On my Guardian, I have a skill that jumps my threat to a % higher than the current highest. If a DPS manages to grab aggro off me by spinning through his big attacks all in a row, I can smash that taunt button immediately after and pretty much keep threat from then on no matter what I do.

 

The DPS may not survive those few seconds of balls-out attacking, but, hey, it gets me the threat I want...

[Mallorik]

DPS - you don't have to burn down the tanks mob- get the adds-trust me the tank will be ok on the gold-kill the white/misc first-I know they will be dead before the gold-trust me-we are terrible dps

 

Really? Is it a race to pop the barrel first? That is agro-let the tank do it- it's what we do...

 

I agree with everything the op posted but these two things are what i encounter much more often and are much more annoying, the kill order thing being the much more common and annoying of the two.

 

I played a dps for 7+ years from eq1 till wow, then i started tanking and ive tanked for 4 or 5 year and ive grown to despise dps as players lol. pug dps that is.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Mallorik

[KivanSane]

DPS: Be in dps form. Wait for the tank to grab aggro. It's ok to throw area effect damage down on the tank mob , it's even encouraged, because in dps form / dps technique / dps whatever you'll never generate enough threat to pull stuff off the tank without using a formal taunt. so just let him grab aggro and feel free to cut loose.

Healer : You're not here to DPS . And you're not here to aggro anything. Follow the tank , always , and tank gets first priority heals , other party members second , and dps abilities should pretty much never fire off. The only exception is if you have a one minute crowd control and it's preplanned. Even then , the tank goes first and grabs aggro (and everyone avoids the target of your cc) then you pop it off.

 

Tank : I don't care if you can heal , and by the way your DPS should be second to last, with the healers being last. A tank boasting of his DPS is a danger signil that you should be prepared to bail on this pug. Use your aggro and area damage abilities to pull the mob (hopefully one mob at a time) and be in tank mode. this means any little thing you do will out aggro even the best equipped DPS , despite the fact that you're probably doing less than half the damage they're doing. This means the DPS is free to simply dump damage on the mobs without worry you'll lose aggro. Dumping damage is their job. Keeping Aggro is yours. Healing is someone elses. Just keep aggro , thats all that is asked of you.

[DarthTHC]

DPS: Be in dps form. Wait for the tank to grab aggro. It's ok to throw area effect damage down on the tank mob , it's even encouraged, because in dps form / dps technique / dps whatever you'll never generate enough threat to pull stuff off the tank without using a formal taunt. so just let him grab aggro and feel free to cut loose.

 

Incorrect. They can certainly pull threat without using a real taunt. Especially if they're geared a tier above the tank on average. Also, AOE DPS is bad when using CC.

 

Healer : You're not here to DPS . And you're not here to aggro anything. Follow the tank , always , and tank gets first priority heals , other party members second , and dps abilities should pretty much never fire off. The only exception is if you have a one minute crowd control and it's preplanned. Even then , the tank goes first and grabs aggro (and everyone avoids the target of your cc) then you pop it off.

 

Healer gets priority heals, then tank, then DPS. A dead healer heals zero and if the tank can't keep aggro off the healer, the healer has to keep himself up. Yes, healers get plenty of aggro from just healing.

 

Also, if DPS is substandard, and the healer is good enough, doing some damage is fine.

 

Also, sometimes you want to CC pull even as a healer even when it gets you initial aggro. One case in point is when you're CC'ing a melee target who will rush the tank when he pulls, but would stay put if you CC pre-pull.

 

Tank : I don't care if you can heal , and by the way your DPS should be second to last, with the healers being last. A tank boasting of his DPS is a danger signil that you should be prepared to bail on this pug. Use your aggro and area damage abilities to pull the mob (hopefully one mob at a time) and be in tank mode. this means any little thing you do will out aggro even the best equipped DPS , despite the fact that you're probably doing less than half the damage they're doing. This means the DPS is free to simply dump damage on the mobs without worry you'll lose aggro. Dumping damage is their job. Keeping Aggro is yours. Healing is someone elses. Just keep aggro , thats all that is asked of you.

 

Have you ever tanked in this game? How do you pull one mob at a time from a pod? Also, threat isn't generated solely based upon your taunting skills. There aren't enough to do that. You have to do damage, and good damage, if you plan to hold aggro.

 

Also, if a tank is telling a DPS that said tank is superior in DPS to said DPS, that should be a sign to the DPS that they need to do something much, much better, not that the tank is an idiot. Or that the tank severely outgears the DPS.

 

Also, as a tank... any tank in this game... you can't just aoe taunt whenever you want. Taunts are tightly controlled and balanced. You can't just keep aggro on everything the whole fight. That's why there are CCs and kill orders. This isn't WoW. It's different.

 

Have you ever tanked in this game? I mean end-ish game? Hardmode flashpoints?

[KivanSane]

Have you ever tanked in this game? How do you pull one mob at a time from a pod? Also, threat isn't generated solely based upon your taunting skills. There aren't enough to do that. You have to do damage, and good damage, if you plan to hold aggro.

 

You taunt one enemy and duck behind something, and the whole mob comes running. Right up to you since you're out of line of sight. Then you drop an area effect on them, and since you're in tank mode, it does massive aggro even if the damage is mediocre (150% of damage is aggro on a tank) , then the rest of the party piles when they see your area go off.

Where did you learn to play ? The School of Run Around At Top Speed And If You Have To Slow Down And Actually Plan You're A Loser ! ? I don't need your advice if so.

Also, if a tank is telling a DPS that said tank is superior in DPS to said DPS, that should be a sign to the DPS that they need to do something much, much better, not that the tank is an idiot. Or that the tank severely outgears the DPS.

With a 150% edge to make their damage out weigh the dps's damage ... someone would have to be SERIOUSLY under or over levelled for that to matter. I generally don't dispense advise for groups like a level 50 leading a bunch of level 20's around ... they usually don't need it.

Also, as a tank... any tank in this game... you can't just aoe taunt whenever you want. Taunts are tightly controlled and balanced. You can't just keep aggro on everything the whole fight. That's why there are CCs and kill orders. This isn't WoW. It's different.

No , you have a regular taunt to pull mobs at you , and then an area effect when they're nice and far away from their friends.

 

And you're right. In wow most of the land scape is "transparent" , it won't break line of site. In SWTOR , opportunities to break line of sight and force the ranged to come to you (or get picked off with dot's) are plentiful.

 

 

 

Have you ever tanked in this game? I mean end-ish game? Hardmode flashpoints?

 

[/color]

 

End Game flash points don't have general rules. Every fight is different. Every boss is programmed to do something weird , and you have to learn each fight one by one , the hard way. There isn't any general advice to dispense for level 50 flash's, except maybe keep good notes and discuss where it all went south so you can learn for the next time.

Edited July 23, 2012 by KivanSane

[YeknomStun]

You sure can keep threat on everything, and if your group is halfway decent you don't need cc. If the healer is not asleep you don't even need to stop pulling.

[EternalChild]

You sure can keep threat on everything, and if your group is halfway decent you don't need cc. If the healer is not asleep you don't even need to stop pulling.

I would like to see how you do LI without CC. Or Kaon when everyone is in Tionese or lower.

[Khevar]

One question I have, as a dps (I hope this doesn't get buried and someone has an answer).

 

I've been given to understand that some of the taunts do a "transfer" of threat. Such as, if myself, as a dps, have gained aggro and the hate score is really high for a boss, and the tank taunts, the tank then gets a LOT of threat back.

 

Am I understanding this correctly? Or is this not how this works?

 

Note that I'm not advocating the dps steal aggro, I'm just trying to understand the mechanism.

[DiLune]

One question I have, as a dps (I hope this doesn't get buried and someone has an answer).

 

I've been given to understand that some of the taunts do a "transfer" of threat. Such as, if myself, as a dps, have gained aggro and the hate score is really high for a boss, and the tank taunts, the tank then gets a LOT of threat back.

 

Am I understanding this correctly? Or is this not how this works?

 

Note that I'm not advocating the dps steal aggro, I'm just trying to understand the mechanism.

 

To respond to an above person, threat has been changed so that tanks generate 200% of their damage as threat.

 

To you, taunts essentially set the tank at 110% of the highest current agro. (My understanding also being that a tank can "offensively" use his taunts to get an extra 10% on what he already has, not that its particularly wise to blow a taunt CD all the time.) They also mean that the mob will only attack the tank for 6 seconds. If the tank can't continue to build on the lead he got on you then he will lose agro again at that point (with 9 seconds until his taunt is up again.)

Edited July 23, 2012 by DiLune

[Mirdthestrill]

Its always nice to heal before a pull-I know the healer can do the 5k quick heal, but some day he is going be out of force-energy and can not cast that crit heal on you because you went in a 50% health on the pull.

This, this, this, this. As a sorc healer, I can not emphasize enough the importance of NOT going in down by 10-15% health. 10% or even 5% can be the difference between your life and death.

[thatghost]

tank gets first priority heals

 

(italics mine) I saw this and quit reading what I'd previously considered a well-thought-out post.

 

As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread and many others: healer gets first priority heals.

 

As a tank your first priority in a group is to keep your healer alive. Your second is to hold aggro.

 

Hypothesis: I'm heals in a PuG. The tank ignores cc and instantly goes for the gold. The DPS, however, helps keep the adds off me. Guess who I'm healing?

 

(and don't bother with a retort; I'm done following this thread)

[Lutese]

You taunt one enemy and duck behind something, and the whole mob comes running.

 

Just hitting the mob with a ranged attack does the same thing.

 

A tank that starts a pull with a taunt is doing it wrong.

 

Any DPS that is doing just and average job will rip it off you with ease six seconds later if you waste a taunt doing something silly like leading with it.

 

(130% of initial aggro = basically no threat. Tanks need to do a quick, solid DPS rotation, and THEN taunt)

 

 

 

RE: CC pulls the tank should still always pull 1st. If a party member is going to CC a target, the tank should wait until they see the induction and pull a split second before the cast goes off.

If the DPS has an instant cast, just go ahead and pull; they will instantly CC said targets and the tank will have all the mobs running to them as opposed to the DPS.

 

Amazes me just how many tanks are out there that don't have a basic grasp on how to tank in this game.

[Khevar]

To respond to an above person, threat has been changed so that tanks generate 200% of their damage as threat.

 

To you, taunts essentially set the tank at 110% of the highest current agro. (My understanding also being that a tank can "offensively" use his taunts to get an extra 10% on what he already has, not that its particularly wise to blow a taunt CD all the time.) They also mean that the mob will only attack the tank for 6 seconds. If the tank can't continue to build on the lead he got on you then he will lose agro again at that point (with 9 seconds until his taunt is up again.)

Yeah, this makes the most sense. I just remember reading something about if a DPS blew a major aoe, increasing the threat of the targets had, followed by the tank taunting, the "amount" of hate the mobs had would stay the same, but the hate would be redirected to the tank, rather than the dps.

 

It was an odd concept, as it somehow implied that taunting would nullify a mistake a dps made gaining aggro, and actually benefit the group as the tank would then have a higher level of hate assigned to them.

[YeknomStun]

I would like to see how you do LI without CC. Or Kaon when everyone is in Tionese or lower.

 

The only cc I use in LI and Kaon is sapping a mob to skip the whole pack, aside from the one tightly packed room in Kaon, I'll cc the screamer in the first pull, and a medic at the end of LI.

Edited July 23, 2012 by YeknomStun

[Ms_Sunlight]

Just hitting the mob with a ranged attack does the same thing.

 

A tank that starts a pull with a taunt is doing it wrong.

 

My Shadow doesn't have any significant ranged attacks except for Telekinetic Throw and that's slow, channelled and requires a charge of Force Potency to extend its range. Taunt is the best way for me to bring something to me from a distance if it's immune to Force Pull, which almost all bosses and champions and many elites are. When it comes into range I can then use a proper attack on it to aggro it properly.

 

I'll also sometimes use Mass Mind Control as I run through melee mobs to gather them, because it's got a nice wide radius, then aggro them properly with Slow Time when I've collected them where I want to be.

 

I suppose what I'm saying is, there are no hard and fast rules. If it works, it works. For me, it's all about mobility and positioning and that's the primary use of AOE taunt at the start of combat, not getting aggro.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Ms_Sunlight

[cshouston]

Really? Is it a race to pop the barrel first? That is agro-let the tank do it- it's what we do...

 

THIS, THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES THIS. I just had to deal with this today. And the day before... and the one before that.

 

The barrel damage adds to YOUR threat, so let the tank pop it please.

 

ALSO DONT POP THEM BEFORE SPAWNING MOBS COMPLETE THEIR INITIAL ANIMATION. IT WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE TO THEM AND IS A COMPLETE WASTE. Thanks. >_<

[TheBetty]

THIS, THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES THIS. I just had to deal with this today. And the day before... and the one before that.

 

The barrel damage adds to YOUR threat, so let the tank pop it please.

 

ALSO DONT POP THEM BEFORE SPAWNING MOBS COMPLETE THEIR INITIAL ANIMATION. IT WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NO DAMAGE TO THEM AND IS A COMPLETE WASTE. Thanks. >_<

 

That moment as a healer when you see a dps run towards the next mob and realise there's a barrel up ahead...

[chimunga]

It's threads like these that keep people like me from doing flashpoints in the first place. Hownthe heck am I supposed to get geared or learn the fights if people kick me for not having the gear or knowing the fights? How can I learn to heal if you rage at me for not knowing or for trying too hard amd running out of energy too soon instead of talking to me like a civilized person?

 

There is a large chunk of MMO noobs in SWTOR, including me, that never had to worry about this stuff before. Acting like people who are learning are too stupid or bad at the game to play with your exalted self just alienates people. I want to group and run FPs but then I wander in here and decide it's not worth the aggravation of knowing that I'm as likely to get kicked or told off as I am to have fun like I did inPUGs for heroics while leveling. And, of course, I haven't seen the story yet so the whole space bar thing is bound to rear its ugly head...

 

Undergeared is acceptable (for the most part). Not knowing the fights is not, simply because there is so much information on the internet that is easily accessible. Before you queue up for a FP, alt-tab over to a browser and look up the boss fights. It's simple and fast and much easier than asking the people in your group to type out instructions to you in the middle of a group. That being said, I also think it is unacceptable for people in groups to get mad if you don't know the fight and you ask for help. The only time you should ever get angry at someone for not knowing a fight is if they are silent about it and get you killed.