Stop making life hard for the tank PuGs

[Khevar]

I am curious how this looks. Other DPS sat in queue for a long time waiting for a tank and healer. Healer sat in a queue (maybe) waiting for a tank. You issue a votekick. How often does that go through and the tank gets kicked? I have a hard time seeing that happen very often.

Exactly. As a healer, my queue time is short(ish). As a dps, it is long. I value the tanks.

Edited July 19, 2012 by JeffKretz

[CosmicKat]

What so difficult about crowd control? In my experience, playing a tank requires the most effort, healer the least and DPS in-between.

 

It's not hard to be crowd control IF the other members of the party know what crowd control is. You can tell them, don't attack the flame (or whatever symbol) and the first thing they will do is run in and AoE. This is a sure way to get yourself to the bottom of the healing priority list.

 

It's easy to be a healer, it's hard to be a good healer.

[sumuser]

As a PvE shield tech my biggest complaint is that some players don't take the time to properly learn their role in the group. While I certainly have much more to learn about tanking, the bottom line is I read the forums and try to improve my game. I can't stand it when you have DPSers jump in close, take the healer's attention, then when they are low in health, jump out and kite. By this time my health is low, I used my heals, and I'm about to die.

 

"LoL LoL you die alot"

 

Yeah ***-munch, I die a lot when my group doesn't understand it is MY job to hold aggro; not get low and kite. I need the healer ON ME, not wasting their time on you. Stop ticking off taunts and AoEs, especially on the main boss. I can usually control regs, strongs, and elites (even with ***-munches) but high DPS bosses require the healer on ME.

[CosmicKat]

As a PvE shield tech my biggest complaint is that some players don't take the time to properly learn their role in the group. While I certainly have much more to learn about tanking, the bottom line is I read the forums and try to improve my game. I can't stand it when you have DPSers jump in close, take the healer's attention, then when they are low in health, jump out and kite. By this time my health is low, I used my heals, and I'm about to die.

 

"LoL LoL you die alot"

 

Yeah ***-munch, I die a lot when my group doesn't understand it is MY job to hold aggro; not get low and kite. I need the healer ON ME, not wasting their time on you. Stop ticking off taunts and AoEs, especially on the main boss. I can usually control regs, strongs, and elites (even with ***-munches) but high DPS bosses require the healer on ME.

 

I play DPS a lot and the very first thing you should learn as a DPS is that you are expendable. If you get too much agro, suck it up and die. It's not like there is any downside to dying in TOR.

 

Running away when you get agro, as any class, is the clearest sign possible that a player has no clue how to play an MMO.

[EternalChild]

if I'm not losing agro to a DPS of any sort (which doesn't happen much now that my gear is pretty good,) then I just guard the healer. Healers can pull agro from the smaller mobs with their healing if I'm not focusing on them and the DPS hasn't gotten to them to start killing.

The thing is, if you haven't hit some mob, it will go after guarded healer, because it has no aggro from tank. But if you did hit the mob, it won't attack even the unguarded healer, because they generate little aggro (they have talents for that). I always guard the dps with the highest burst damage, usually it is marauder

[DiLune]

The thing is, if you haven't hit some mob, it will go after guarded healer, because it has no aggro from tank. But if you did hit the mob, it won't attack even the unguarded healer, because they generate little aggro (they have talents for that). I always guard the dps with the highest burst damage, usually it is marauder

 

But my point is, if that Marauder isn't ripping agro off of me...why am I bothering to care who has guard up? Its just an exercise in theorycrafting at that point. I just default to the healer if the DPS isn't giving me problems. (On an unrelated note, I am tempted ot spec DPS, put on my offspec gear and then run an instance guarding the tank to see if he notices.)

[mokkh]

I play DPS a lot and the very first thing you should learn as a DPS is that you are expendable. If you get too much agro, suck it up and die. It's not like there is any downside to dying in TOR.

 

Running away when you get agro, as any class, is the clearest sign possible that a player has no clue how to play an MMO.

 

I disagree entirely, breaking the mob's LoS strategically while in an instance is a great thing for a group if you get aggro. If you get too much aggro, use your aggro dump ability or flash bang/stun and focus on the correct target. Dying for no reason because you don't know how to manage aggro "is the clearest sign possible that a player has no clue how to play an MMO."

 

No one is expendable when boss mobs have enrage timers, especially DPS.

[TheNegotiator]

wrong. a tank should always guard the highest melee DPS. damage reduction only works within 15 meters, something not guaranteed in flashpoints and almost never happening in most operations. a DPS will ALWAYS out threat a healer by about a mile if they're competently played. A guarded healer is a guard wasted in PVE. If you honestly can't out threat a healer as a tank without guard, your issue lies with your lack of gear or horrid rotation.

 

bad tanks guard healers and don't bother to learn from leveling with their companion, good tanks guard the melee DPS and do alright with threat.

 

 

please note in the group finder, if you're level 50 and only lvl 50 purples/tionese gear, you can guard me, have me wait 10 seconds, all that crap, my rotation is still pulling aggro. you have to know WHEN to use your taunts. your taunt gives you current threat +30%, so if you pop it AFTER the DPS that pulled aggro finishes their rotation you will be far ahead of any potential future pull.

 

so, this boils down to apparently tanks in pugs don't know which target to guard, and don't know how to use their taunts.

 

What you are saying is pretty ignorant. When I play my tank I will always guard the healer. If the healer tells me to guard another person I will. It's up to the dps to control their agro. If you don't think agro control is a responsibility for everyone you are a poor player.

[Kyriosgundam]

I think people just need to slow down and learn patience. Everyone is in such a big hurry that they don't even follow the basics of grouping.

 

SPACEBAR SPACEBAR SPACEBAR SPACEBAR SPACEBAR SPACEBAR SPACEBAR run in! balls to the wall!

 

Tank and healer are still standing there "huh?" lol

 

An extra 5 mins of patience saves thousands of credits in repair bills and stops the flashpoint dragging out for another 20 mins or so.

That is so true my Assassin is a Tank my Shadow also and every group I have been in except for 2 are always balls to the wall blow through everything fast fast fast. In a game like this, in fact in most MMO's Patience is a necessity. Think before attacking otherwise we Tanks and Healers cant do our jobs correctly.

[Jackalcrimson]

That is so true my Assassin is a Tank my Shadow also and every group I have been in except for 2 are always balls to the wall blow through everything fast fast fast. In a game like this, in fact in most MMO's Patience is a necessity. Think before attacking otherwise we Tanks and Healers cant do our jobs correctly.

 

I was in a group today where the healer was the balls to wall guy, spacebar!! Running ahead, someone died in a fight, we got "Some dumb people standing in lightning dying" and of course he never revived the guy the whole fight, lol. We get to the final boss the tank asks, which was nice of him, does everyone know this fight? Healer was first to respond, JUST GO. I was trying to hard to not say anything and was so close to hitting the ignore button it wasn't even funny. And I agree some missions can be taken a bit slower then others, fast runs like black talon I am happy with.

[Vialator]

I got into a spat over this with a pug sorc- he starts yelling at me for breaking his cc- and i told him -then don't cc before I pull- he turns around and says that's not how it works! They have to CC first then I can tank- so The next pack I let him CC and he died as a result of ALL the elites insta beating on him- He ended up swearing and cursing me so I just gave up the run and left!

 

What plonkers you have in this game

[venomlash]

I'm a Gunnery Commando, and I deeply respect a good tank. I do my part: I CC mobs when useful, mark and communicate my CCs, avoid pulling aggro from anything tougher than a standard mob, pop my threat dump when necessary, and even toss in the occasional heal when the bantha poodoo hits the turbines.

On the other hand, a tank who doesn't know what he's doing really rustles my jimmies. If I pop Diversion and there's still an elite on my butt, please peel him off me or things will get messy. And if you're trying to pull a boss over somewhere, for the love of all that is holy please attack the boss a bit instead of just running at him, or I'll pull aggro as soon as I hit him. (Had a really bad tank try that on Ironfist HM once.)

Of course, it's all a bit moot now, since my GF got her main up to 50 and usually tanks for me. No way no how am I going to mess with her.

[CosmicKat]

I disagree entirely, breaking the mob's LoS strategically while in an instance is a great thing for a group if you get aggro. If you get too much aggro, use your aggro dump ability or flash bang/stun and focus on the correct target. Dying for no reason because you don't know how to manage aggro "is the clearest sign possible that a player has no clue how to play an MMO."

 

No one is expendable when boss mobs have enrage timers, especially DPS.

 

You are correct when the agro is coming from a ranged enemy. I was refering to melee agro, should have clarified that.

[KBSIP]

You are correct when the agro is coming from a ranged enemy. I was refering to melee agro, should have clarified that.

 

kiting is an important method for dealing with mobs. in foundry I will gladly kite the melee adds to death while the tank focuses on HK, with my AOE CC and instant proc snare I generally take little to not damage. on trash pulls if I pick up an elite or strong mob I'll be strafe-kiting through precleared areas while I burn him down, I'll be fine, he'll be dead, we can move on. I wouldn't have to kite if it weren't for almost every pugged tank I get not understanding 1) how guard works and 2) how taunts work.

 

your taunt should come at least a few seconds AFTER a dps has pulled aggro, giving you the best threat returns. Practically no boss hits hard enough to make this a problem until you're in operations, and if you're losing operation aggro after the first 10% you're a bad tank.

 

Guards should always go on MDPS. MDPS will always out threat healers. if you have powertech DPS that goes triple for them as the class has 0 threat dumps.

[CosmicKat]

kiting is an important method for dealing with mobs. in foundry I will gladly kite the melee adds to death while the tank focuses on HK, with my AOE CC and instant proc snare I generally take little to not damage. on trash pulls if I pick up an elite or strong mob I'll be strafe-kiting through precleared areas while I burn him down, I'll be fine, he'll be dead, we can move on. I wouldn't have to kite if it weren't for almost every pugged tank I get not understanding 1) how guard works and 2) how taunts work.

 

your taunt should come at least a few seconds AFTER a dps has pulled aggro, giving you the best threat returns. Practically no boss hits hard enough to make this a problem until you're in operations, and if you're losing operation aggro after the first 10% you're a bad tank.

 

Guards should always go on MDPS. MDPS will always out threat healers. if you have powertech DPS that goes triple for them as the class has 0 threat dumps.

 

Can't comment about the endgame stuff as I haven't reached it yet (alt-aholic). I've yet to see anything in this game that requires any serious tactical planning or trickery to beat. I've seen a few FP or Heroic boss fights that approached EQ newbie dungeon challenge, but most of it barely even requires consciousness.

 

Maybe I am prejudiced from other games but when I read "kiting" I think "exploiting". It is possible that it is a valid tactic in late game TOR, I don't know. Where I have seen kiting is in EQ where it was highly dangerous to anyone you stumbled into, and in City of Heroes where it was an incredibly boring way to take out huge groups of MOB's.

 

Nothing wrong with it for solo play in TOR, if that's your thing.

[GalacticKegger]

Ya OP, tanking can be an inordinate challenge in PUGs depending on who (or what) shows up. I've learned to live with it though. I just whisper the healer that if someone keeps verstoppen ze gang to not fight it and let 'em die. They're gonna die anyway so heals may as well focus their attention & power on what can make a difference.

 

Eventually perps get the message. Whether or not they fall in line, or rant or drop is not a concern since there's a vote to kick if they choose to continue being flagrant about it. As a tank I'm up front with everyone before the first mob about how I tank, and kindly remind deeps that the heal order is healer & tank ... and then them.

 

If the impatient ones have to wait around for 10 seconds while the tank types out the CC & kill orders, they'll just indiscriminately go. As much as I'm against macros, having the ability to create a chat library so communicating stuff like "Float the blue hood" + "I'm pulling the flame to here" (followed by jumping up & down) + "Focus fire on the crosshairs" in three keys strokes would really help with that.

Edited July 20, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[demotivator]

I would like to add a few things:

 

If you do not want to DPS, do not queue for DPS. Many a time I have grouped up as a tank (When I'm a tank, I only ever check the "tank" box), and another person, who has checked both the tank and DPS boxes, thinks that he is the tank without even checking. While sometimes (rarely) they're nice about it when I tell them that I am, in fact, the tank (check the shield on my face, dude), there are so many times when the person stays in tank spec and proceeds to split the aggro between us the whole FP. Normally I just switch out of tank stance and let them do their thing to make it easier on the healer, but I'm specced for tanking, so my DPS is not the greatest.

 

Another (very random) point: Healers can CC. This was an actual conversation I had in an FP. (keep in mind, we only had one CC, whirlwind)

Me: "Can I get a CC on the marked mob?"

Silence....

Me: "Um...healer? You're the only CC."

Healer: "I know. Healers aren't in charge of CC. That's not my job. I heal."

I didn't know how to respond.

Me: ".....There's only one other mob. You're not going to have aggro for more than half a second."

Healer: "I know. That's just not my job. I heal."

 

It went on like this for like five minutes, till I just pulled both mobs, and two DPS died because the healer couldn't keep up with "his job" of healing with us fighting two champions. I know this is a very rare case, but it annoyed me so much that I had to share.

 

Yeah, I'd say it was definitely an idiot. CCs are everyone's affair... it doesn't waste your energy, doesn't pull much agro when done intelligently or even hardly any agro and it makes things easier for everyone. Interrupts on the other hand are a different matter, if your healer has his hands busy healing don't expect him to keep a close eye on the boss.

Edited July 20, 2012 by demotivator

[arkzehhh]

You should not do it. You risk losing aggro on elites/boss this way. Just make sure to use your aoe attack to hit most of normal/strong mobs to prevent them focusing on healer and switch to elites. Dps should be able to handle aggro from normal/strong mobs. If they can't, kick them.

 

LOL, a tank saying if a DPS doesnt hold aggro on a normal/strong mob kick them? You're hilarious.

 

Ontopic : DPS should wait a second or two but you'll always get impatient one's.. and you just have to deal with it or leave really. Or kick them ofcourse, it happen's and it will always happen. L2DWI

[TheBetty]

I got into a spat over this with a pug sorc- he starts yelling at me for breaking his cc- and i told him -then don't cc before I pull- he turns around and says that's not how it works! They have to CC first then I can tank- so The next pack I let him CC and he died as a result of ALL the elites insta beating on him- He ended up swearing and cursing me so I just gave up the run and left!

 

What plonkers you have in this game

 

I find doing the CC straight after the tank runs in/ casting whilst he charges or pulls, as the effective way to do it.

[grallmate]

I run a tank and a healer. My tank has 15 healers and 1 DPS as friends. My Healer has 2 DPS and 7 tanks as friends. One of the DPS is the same on both characters which I didn't realise at the time.

 

As a tank or healer you only need to be "Good" at their role to get on my friends list. The"Great" ones get a comment and get preferenced for grouping or recruited to guild. But a DPS has to be EXCEPTIONAL to make it onto the list because they are a dime a dozen.

 

I only have 1 tank and 1 DPS (he pretended to be a tank though) on my ignore list across both characters.

 

On topic:

- DPS DO NOT run around in tank stance. DO NOT Guard each other!

- Please read party chat. Any issues I notice I will mention here, please respond to them or you fast track to my ignore list. I don't care if you can't fix it straight away, but please acknowledge that you heard me.

- Undergeared tanks: keep aggro off the healer. Let the DPS look after themselves but keep the healer alive. Try and get aggro on the biggest guy (and work down) wherever you can.

- Barrels and KB are the tanks tools for positioning and aggro. DO NOT KB mobs I'm tanking, if they run for you go ahead but if they're on me you're making my job harder. Barrels are free AoE threat for me, don't blow the barrel, blow your AoE and wonder why all the mobs ran at you.

[EternalChild]

LOL, a tank saying if a DPS doesnt hold aggro on a normal/strong mob kick them? You're hilarious.

I did say "handle aggro", which means "survive". Actually any DPS or healer class should be able to even survive aggro from a single elite by using CC skills. If they got aggro from multiple strong/elite mobs though, it it clearly a tank's fault.

[EternalChild]

I got into a spat over this with a pug sorc- he starts yelling at me for breaking his cc- and i told him -then don't cc before I pull- he turns around and says that's not how it works! They have to CC first then I can tank- so The next pack I let him CC and he died as a result of ALL the elites insta beating on him- He ended up swearing and cursing me so I just gave up the run and left!

 

What plonkers you have in this game

Sorry, but it was your fault. You have AOE taunt exactly for such cases. Usually i watch players who are going to use CC and when i see their casting bars i pull. No need for AOE taunt this way. If i expect CC after pull, i try not to hit elite mobs for some time, using taunts instead. But the best approach is to mark CC targets before the pull, assign them to players, ask in chat for CC and pull when you see the casting bars.

[grallmate]

Sorry, but it was your fault. You have AOE taunt exactly for such cases. Usually i watch players who are going to use CC and when i see their casting bars i pull. No need for AOE taunt this way. If i expect CC after pull, i try not to hit elite mobs for some time, using taunts instead. But the best approach is to mark CC targets before the pull, assign them to players, ask in chat for CC and pull when you see the casting bars.

 

Taunts should not be used off the bat. Taunting something with 0 threat just forces it to attack you for 6 seconds and builds no threat. AoE THEN taunt works much better. Or let your DPS AoE then taunt as the mobs start to run at them, follow up with your AoE and you're sweet. Lovely tactic I learned trying to tank in Recruit with Rakata+ DPS. Also worth noting it works much better with melee mobs than ranged unless your DPS are able to LoS pretty quick.

 

An in terms of breaking CC, if the CC was on the edge of the pull AND an elite+ mob AND was marked: that tank was wrong. If the CC was in the middle of the pull OR a strong/weaker mob OR was unmarked then the tank was fine. If you are going to CC without telling the tank WHAT you will CC, its you're fault it gets broken. For example I like the Torvix Corona Torches CCed in CtS because they deal lots of elemental damage and are on the edges but everyone seems to like CCing the droids if I let them choose targets.

 

Also a pro tip for tanks: move the mobs AWAY from any CCs. For some reason Sentinels always 'forget' that Force Sweep is an AoE and spam it next to CCed mobs. Plus I like to minimise/negate any stupidity from my group where possible. Oh, and I LOVE using Force Sweep myself

[Virtus-Kerensky]

Low level tanking for PuGs is painful at the least. No AoE taunts, only one single target taunt and one weak AoE dps move = no ability to hold hate across multiple enemies. The number of enemies attacking groups in low level content is the same as in endgame but tanks lack the tools to actually do anything about it at low levels. I've also seen tanks being trashed talked at endgame relentlessly. All of this I'm sure discourages more tanks which hurts the overall games population.

 

I've always been praised for being an effective tank in other MMO's. But now going into TOR tanking and getting trashed while expecting me to hold hate against 6 enemies with one weak AoE move and one single target taunt, both on their cool downs, while dps spam their AoE's just makes me want to throw in the towel. And while my tank is still low level, as a healer in endgame, the way I've seen some tanks be treated does not motivate me to hurry my own tank to the endgame scene at all.

[Ms_Sunlight]

 

An in terms of breaking CC, if the CC was on the edge of the pull AND an elite+ mob AND was marked: that tank was wrong. If the CC was in the middle of the pull OR a strong/weaker mob OR was unmarked then the tank was fine. If you are going to CC without telling the tank WHAT you will CC, its you're fault it gets broken. For example I like the Torvix Corona Torches CCed in CtS because they deal lots of elemental damage and are on the edges but everyone seems to like CCing the droids if I let them choose targets.

 

That's why I love my Scoundrel healer - I can CC one of each. Well, I can CC one of each provided people give me time to stealth in before combat. Get a couple of Scoundrels in your group doing Chasing the Shadow (or, I presume, a couple of Operatives doing The End of Torvix) and it's cake.