Smashbrother Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) This is a great point. Most players pull the WH mods and put them into other moddable gear to come up with a cooler, more distinct look thanks to the set bonuses transferring with the armoring mods. I rarely see anyone wearing the standard PvP gear anymore, regardless of its color. This also goes hand in hand with a point I made about the issue with incentives for RWZs. If you're full WH already, you're not doing it for the gear. You're either playing them for fun (which they typically are not), or for Epeen. In some cases, you might be doing it for the unique colored crystals you need Rating to use, but I personally am not going to go through all the trouble of doing that just so that I can have purple-black lightsabers. We do them so we can gear out alts as well. 1. Purchase legacy gear from capital city on alt. 2. Mail to main. 3. Buy WH gear with main, pull out mods, put them in legacy gear. 4. Mail legacy gear to alt. 5. ??? 6. Profit Edited July 19, 2012 by Smashbrother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 People actually buy the legacy gear? Cause man, I like the sniper/agent legacy 20 gear but the money...meh. I can't make myself do it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickonce Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 People don't realize you get more ranked comms in a loss, than you get in a win for a regular WZ. Wrong. It's about the same if you get rolled you can expect to get about 30-40 in rated. A win in regular can get you 120+. So it's a wash, and people generally prefer not to get completely rolled. People don't realize that it's just preseason and they should use this opportunity to gear up quicker. Wrong... the fact that this is pre-season is no state secret. Everyone is aware that it is pre-season, but having a 1200 team go against a 2200+ team is not fun or competitive. People don't realize that playing better teams will make themselves better much faster than playing against scrubs in regular WZs. Wrong again. A 1200 vs. a 2200+ is a foregone conclusion... they are just going to get owned and spend majority of the time in the dugout. The skill difference compounded by the gear differences will not yield enough time on the field to learn anything. The problem with rateds at the moment is it's not competitive because there is no matching in place at all. Until that is addressed people will stay away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Wrong. It's about the same if you get rolled you can expect to get about 30-40 in rated. A win in regular can get you 120+. So it's a wash, and people generally prefer not to get completely rolled. It's actually subjective; I've lost in Rateds and received 59 comms before so...also, you have the "chance" to grab a win, so even if they were "even'ish", why not do a Rated with a chance to win 140+ rated comms? If more players would round up their server peeps, create some groups, etc., not every RWZ would be a lolfaceroll. Instead, too many are scared, and choose to find excuses (see your reply above). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Assuming you're queueing regular + ranked WZ at the same time it should be literally impossible to do worse in terms of ranked WZ acquisition unless you routinely get camped at your spawn point and unable to get a medal in RWZ because triple the rewards for loss (and you can't do worse than losing) is far greater than normal rewards for winning (which you aren't guaranteed to in regular WZ). Now if you only queue up ranked WZ you can make an argument about whether ranked WZ pops often enough or should you just call your losses and grind it out in regular WZ if it takes 2 hours to pop only to get completely facerolled by a super team. But if you're expecting to get facerolled by opposition I see no reason why you wouldn't queue up for both WZ at the same time since you're clearly trying to maximize the number of games you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 It's actually subjective; I've lost in Rateds and received 59 comms before so...also, you have the "chance" to grab a win, so even if they were "even'ish", why not do a Rated with a chance to win 140+ rated comms? If more players would round up their server peeps, create some groups, etc., not every RWZ would be a lolfaceroll. Instead, too many are scared, and choose to find excuses (see your reply above). Yeah, and its a self fulfilling prophecy situation to some extent. More people don't do ranked, so the ranked queues are longer. As a result all the 1300+ expertise people get bored and faceroll some normal warzones. I don't mind getting smacked around a bit in rateds, but it always seems like my team is grossly undergeared, and that gets a bit demoralizing after a couple losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistols Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) Yeah, and its a self fulfilling prophecy situation to some extent. More people don't do ranked, so the ranked queues are longer. As a result all the 1300+ expertise people get bored and faceroll some normal warzones. I don't mind getting smacked around a bit in rateds, but it always seems like my team is grossly undergeared, and that gets a bit demoralizing after a couple losses. Yeah it can happen, no doubts there, but even when you run into these (as someone pointed out) you can learn a few strats and have an idea with the other team is doing. I know nobody enjoys getting wrecked, but WZ's are not supposed to be easy either, especially in ranked. Like I said, if each faction took the initiative to get more groups running, the chances of going up against said faceroll teams would lessen. I started a Republic PUG RWZ thread last week, and Saturday got 10 games in going 7-3 overall. PUG groups doesn't guarantee a loss, you just need to get the basics down in order to maximize a return. For one, set up a voice comms program for peeps to join, balance the classes as best as possible, and lastly let everyone know it's more for fun and to help with getting gear. If peeps can get those 3 things going, and with a boost from factional interest, it can be successful. From here, you don't need to be dependant on a "Guild" at all, as you would be more dependant on your faction. I was amazed at how many quality players from other guilds joined up, and am glad it's been working. Edited July 19, 2012 by Pistols Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) Oh PvP is a constant learning curve. There's always someone you are 'better then' and someone who is 'better then you'. It's what is great about it. I just think right now, especially with all the transferred people coming over barely in full BM, they seem to think "oh, we're 7-8 guildies , we can handle whoever". Even with my own guild (hold the lulz), I can't sit here and say I know they are really terrible players. I can tell you that they give away anywhere from 100 to 200 in expertise a person, and in my own experiences as I've slowly progressed from 1000 to 1235 now, I've found the overall improvements in my output and surviviability much better as I went. I was in another guild trying them out - large guild - and they had the same mindset. They couldn't believe they would keep losing with a median expertise score of mid 1100s and running with 3 to 3.5 healers. Sometimes I hit up rateds just to assess my own skills and output, but in general I'm still staying with normals for a bit longer. A lot of people I run with our less geared then I am, and also have an old guildie from the guild I just left who's a fresh meat 50 we've all been there... It is kinda fun though. We ran into a very good republic group about 3 straight times two nights ago, and you should've seen him in chat , his head was like exploding and he was like "I only did 40k damage. total" and I'm just snickering to myself "welcome to the pros, my friend" I saw your republic PUG thread. It's a good idea. I wouldn't mind seeing an Imperial one too, but I'm not sure I'm the right person to start it (at this point). It'll also help a bit once BW finally gives us individual server forums now. Those are 6 months overdue. Edited July 19, 2012 by islander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Yeah, and its a self fulfilling prophecy situation to some extent. More people don't do ranked, so the ranked queues are longer. As a result all the 1300+ expertise people get bored and faceroll some normal warzones. I don't mind getting smacked around a bit in rateds, but it always seems like my team is grossly undergeared, and that gets a bit demoralizing after a couple losses. 1) We play the same team over and over again. The team that wins ALWAYS wins and the other team stops queuing. No more rateds for that day. 2) Comp dependency means play the FOTM spec on the FOTM class or no one wants you. 3) Takes FOREVER to get a decently geared team together. Then you get smashed by a guild team and you wonder why you bothered in the first place. 4) No solo ranked queues. This was a SERIOUS mistake. 5) Warzones are now speed based, but only for the first 30 seconds. Whoever caps the turret first keeps it. Nodes don't flip. Alderaan side turrets never flip, middle never gets capped, whoever caps side turret first wins by 5. Denova nodes never flip, whoever caps first keeps it. Voidstar doors are camped by engineer snipers/sabotage gunslingers and never get planted on. Voidstar tie break system = fail. Rated teams use every exploit, trick, and FOTM tool in the box to win. That actually makes the game 10x less fun. I can't play what I want. I can't play how I want. I can't even play with whom I want. Why bother playing? See 1-5. The only "self-fulfilling prophecy" is the one everyone predicted when the Bioware devs said that their matchmaking system would become "more flexible" if there weren't enough similarly rated teams in the queue. The moment those two words hit the paper the rated WZ queue was doomed to fail. Not only that, now that rateds have proven to be the colossal disappointment that everything else Bioware has done turned out to be, most of the Republic major PvP guilds on my server have jumped ship. It was just one failure too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) I think the number 1 problem is undergeared origin server people. the destination servers have almost all had 'home field' advantage for a while now. This isn't a gripe. It's just a reality. More experienced, more gear. If Bioware doesn't change the ceiling on expertise soon, people will eventually get on equal ground. I'm about 4 weeks away from full WH, for example (based on the 2-3 hours a night I play) Edited July 19, 2012 by islander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The top 4on4 Warcraft 3 team is 10-0 last time I looked. This doesn't mean there are only 10 games of Warcraft 3 4on4 ever played since whenever their last season is, but rather this is the number of games the matchmaking system can reasonably match up a reasonable opponent against that team. Assuming you believe your system works then a difference of 400 ELO represents a 99% chance of winning. You're not supposed to match teams that have 99% to win because it's not a very exciting game for either team. It'd be like saying if top boxing ranking is determined by how many scrubs you can KO in a punch because you never fought anyone remotely in your same league. And in real life it could take a long time for 2 top guys to matched together, but that's what you got to do get to the top. It's not like you get to go beat up 100 scrubs and now that makes you #1 in the world without ever fighting the #1 guy, or at least someone close to him. Of course you can't do matchmaking without enough people. After all if only 2 teams are queued up for a WZ in the last 2 hours you obviously can't do better than just putting these two teams against each other (or not at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 If they'd made a solo queue there would be ranked pvp- that way pugs would face pugs and premades would face premades- which makes perfect sense to everyone but the biggest idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I started a Republic PUG RWZ thread last week D*mn dude, that's pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unixbomber Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Sounds like ranked is hurting bads more than helping... ftfy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 If they'd made a solo queue there would be ranked pvp- that way pugs would face pugs and premades would face premades- which makes perfect sense to everyone but the biggest idiots. That's not even necessary if you believe your rating system actually works. If you go through the system to gain points, there's no reason to believe one guy at the top via one system is significantly better or worse than another guy at the top from a different system. You don't suddenly play better or worse just because the other 7 guys are PUGs or guys you know, at least I hope this is not the case. It's probably a good idea to separate the two types of gameplay anyway but a good player is still a good player whether he's with 7 PUGs or 7 WHs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmith Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 many people I knew who were disappointed with 1.2 just left the game. took them long enough to get the system working. I barely play normal WZs and only play them to help my friend get the daily done. But, being a sorc is hard as most guilds don't want more than 2 in their ranks since sorcs are squishy and equal to other classes when it comes to DPS. I've only had the chance to go ranked today, been playing on alts mostly since 1.3 came up... Honestly, I think people can't stand more disappointments... first they screw up with the pvp community, then they screw up with everyone on transfers, getting servers above their capacity and making people waiting to enter the servers. Then it's server lag all the time... I don't know how they can screw things again when they try to fix other problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackgoat Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 4) with the drain from 1-3, RWZ almost guarantees getting paired with one of the few high rated teams looking for a match up which means face stomping. ^ This is my main reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
announcerharris Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Would going to a system of ONLY ranked WZs, which you can join anywhere from on your own up to a full team of 8 and anywhere in between solve the problem? Are there enough players so that if there were only one set of WZs the matchmaking based on ranking would actually work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahrdol Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 1. Not enuff players. Who wants to get face stomped 3 times in a row by the the same top rated team over and over. Needed cross server months ago and still don't have it. 2. Too hard to field a completive 8 man team made up of the few OP classes/skill trees in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahrdol Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Would going to a system of ONLY ranked WZs, which you can join anywhere from on your own up to a full team of 8 and anywhere in between solve the problem? Nope. it would just turn more players off PVP. Solo only que would help more players to do rated because you would get lots of random teams. So people like me would not have to play 1 or 2 top rated teams over and over with less optimized 8 man team. This game needed cross server pvp to increase the pvp pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozziwig Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'm shocked anyone ever thought it was a good idea. Why would I want to play against BETTER players? Winning is fun, losing is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mahrdol Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 People don't realize you get more ranked comms in a loss, than you get in a win for a regular WZ. No you don't. I played in a pick up team of 8 players. we played 2 games against the #2 rated team in a row and after the 2nd game getting face rolled where 4 players on my team got 11 rated coms they just quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdesiderio Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'm shocked anyone ever thought it was a good idea. Why would I want to play against BETTER players? Winning is fun, losing is not. The problem isn't facing better players. The problem is that only one or two teams queues regularly anymore, and they are the elite teams. Nothing in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'm shocked anyone ever thought it was a good idea. Why would I want to play against BETTER players? Winning is fun, losing is not. To... I dunno, get better? But most failures like to stomp on noobs and feel powerful, so I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaLeX Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 two 4 man groups queing could be a short term answer. I guarantee you that it wont be a huge advantage for the 8 man team vs two premades where as 8 man vs pug is 100% useless win or loss. So maybe start with 4 man allowed then maybe even 2 man later,. If you need more players then you need to be more inclusive, that and class balance is still an issue with ranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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