Daystarr Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 You missed the entire point, so I'll spell it out for you: There is NO best class. There is NO worst class. There is NO mathematical advantage. The common denominator in all the QQ on the forums is the bad player. It's really that simple. There's a 12 step program available so that you people can one day learn to accept this. Every class in this game is perfectly viable in PvP. Some may not be for you personally, but I guarantee there are people out there playing them like a boss. Have to agree with this. All classes have strengths and weaknesses, problem is people don't adapt their playstyle to take advantage of their classes strengths. I find that a lot of players who have ACs that can tank/dps or heal/dps only cater to 1 aspect of playstyle - the role that they choose; they don't adapt, they just heal if they're heal specced, dps if they're dps specced. They go into warzones in the mindset that they can play like any Marauder or Sniper and actually dish the same damage and if they can't because they don't counter their opponents they come here and whine about it. I play my Madness assassin sometimes as a tank, sure I may end up with a few more deaths than I'd like but at least I'm AoE taunting people off my teammates and reducing the effectiveness of my opponents shut down while dealing my own damage and providing some team play on two different fronts. I play my Carnage Marauder in rated as a peeler as well as shutting down the key targets around me. I play my Arsenal Merc as an offhealer sometimes if my team mates require extra healing from focus firing and then get back on the ball to taking down my targets at range. From all the rated and non-rated warzones I've played, I don't see a lot of players putting in the same level of efficiency and adapting to their class strengths. Not everyone can taunt, heal or peel if their class doesn't support it, and not every class was made in the mindset of 1v1 equality. The classes are balanced, the players behind the class needs to make the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheronFett Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) ...As a Merc healer, I have only one knockback and no interrupt. I have no choice but to eat every single attack thrown at me....the class has a very low skill ceiling since there is barely any choice involved in the class's mechanics. And yet, each and every day, I see Merc and Commando healers doing it better than Ops/Smugs and Sorc/Sages. Can you explain that? Are these players somehow able to rise above your classes mechanics? Are they just cheating? No. They're just better. They know what tools they have available and are able to work with them to be the best they can be. It has absolutely zero to do with a class being gimped or broken or needing more tools to be effective. Zero. Edited July 14, 2012 by TheronFett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elear Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 This is what you get when you make classes with diverse gamestyle. People crying because their class doesn't fit their playstyle, and they could do better on another class. But only valid reply here is: reroll. No, seriously, if you want to play class that can take a beating try Guardians, if you want DPS that is 'do-or-die' Pyrotech is for you. And classes that are considered OP are ones that support style "charge and kill", because that's what most players want to do, and never reach potential of classes designed to do this. Either learn way your class is supposed to be played and adapt, or reroll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTPRO Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Have to agree with this. All classes have strengths and weaknesses, problem is people don't adapt their playstyle to take advantage of their classes strengths. I find that a lot of players who have ACs that can tank/dps or heal/dps only cater to 1 aspect of playstyle - the role that they choose; they don't adapt, they just heal if they're heal specced, dps if they're dps specced. They go into warzones in the mindset that they can play like any Marauder or Sniper and actually dish the same damage and if they can't because they don't counter their opponents they come here and whine about it. I play my Madness assassin sometimes as a tank, sure I may end up with a few more deaths than I'd like but at least I'm AoE taunting people off my teammates and reducing the effectiveness of my opponents shut down while dealing my own damage and providing some team play on two different fronts. I play my Carnage Marauder in rated as a peeler as well as shutting down the key targets around me. I play my Arsenal Merc as an offhealer sometimes if my team mates require extra healing from focus firing and then get back on the ball to taking down my targets at range. From all the rated and non-rated warzones I've played, I don't see a lot of players putting in the same level of efficiency and adapting to their class strengths. Not everyone can taunt, heal or peel if their class doesn't support it, and not every class was made in the mindset of 1v1 equality. The classes are balanced, the players behind the class needs to make the change. oh yes them 2.3K heals with 2.5 sec cast time on my commando. So very useful. I can do 5K damage in 2.5s if unlucky and no crit. Generally don't understand how dumb can some people be. When a marauder can pull 1800 dps in PVE and deception sin can pull 1350, is it balanced? When a sniper can interrupt, root, AoE mez, can't be leapt to, can't be interrupted, can't be stunned half of the time [with Hunker Down] and commando has LESS burst then sniper and can do weak and extremely ammo inefficient heals, you call that balanced? When a sentinel [any spec] has more damage, better defensive cooldowns and more utility than a Vigilance Guardian, you call that balanced? Just last week there was a dueling competition on our server. You guys can have a guess who the first three classes were? [hint: Two tank shadows in dps gear, one sentinel]. There was no mercenary present in the duels. There was no deception sin present in the duels. Coincidence I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiTaNsFaN Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 That's funny, I could have sworn Marauders were the best class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vimm Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 "I agree with the developer. Learn how to play the spec the way it's meant to be played. " I remember when people on forums for SWG had this same attitude. Where is that game? I don't see it anywhere..... You mean the longest running pay to play mmo? Yeah, what an absolute failure that was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widgits Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 You mean the longest running pay to play mmo? Yeah, what an absolute failure that was. lol what? Delusions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) And yet, each and every day, I see Merc and Commando healers doing it better than Ops/Smugs and Sorc/Sages. Can you explain that? Are these players somehow able to rise above your classes mechanics? Are they just cheating? No. They're just better. They know what tools they have available and are able to work with them to be the best they can be. It has absolutely zero to do with a class being gimped or broken or needing more tools to be effective. Zero. Do you doubt that the Merc or Commando healer behind the wheel of an Op/Smugg wouldn't do even better than they do on their Merc? I certainly don't. Every issue he raised about the deficiencies of Merc/Commando healing are spot on. Being able to "do well" or "make the most of it" means that you can outplay bad players. There is, however, a very good reason Commandos of all stripes are not highly desired on any Rated team... they're only competitive driven by the very best players, and those very best players would be even more effective if they were on other classes that can get the same or better results with less work. That, right there, is the balance issue... if you're trying to accomplish a consistent goal (in this case, healing a team in a Warzone) and you can get the same end result with two drastically different levels of effort, the less-effort option is superior because there's far more error tolerance built in. The hard way is suboptimal, even if, in a single player's hands, it's effective. Good players are statistical outliers and incredibly poor arguments for why any class is "fine". Edited July 14, 2012 by Omophorus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnsTwoThree Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) This and its sad. Had to fire one dev team. Another resigns. EA stock plummets 50% since dec. Seems like you guys are doing a good job right? ^ That about sums it up. Also lost 500k~ Subs in a 5 month period. And yet, each and every day, I see Merc and Commando healers doing it better than Ops/Smugs and Sorc/Sages. Can you explain that? Are these players somehow able to rise above your classes mechanics? Are they just cheating? Any class can do "better" than another number-wise. It's when you put those classes into situations where healers should realistically be fine to you know.... heal? and they cannot even stand at the feet of what and OP/Smug can do cause other heals just roll over. Edited July 14, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 You mean the longest running pay to play mmo? Yeah, what an absolute failure that was. >.> Did you somehow misread SWG? Star Wars Galaxies man, wasn't longest-running anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Hmm...I was under the impression that Assassins were OP and people complained about them a lot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Achyllis Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) The response to the dps Operative question was far worse to me. It was essentially an admission they are amateurs with no idea what to do. I think they are actually about to fail on two levels First - they think they will cleverly use WoW's model to maintain a sub fee while they create no new content and you will happily create alts and repeat dailies. Two - as mentioned above on the dev side this outfit is clearly amateur night when it comes to balance issues. You will see the FOTMs rotate every six months as they try to get you to continue to pay to reroll the new FOTM through content you paid for when you bought the box. They will continue to obsolete the PvP gear every six months to give you a shiny new carrot to grind on your alts. The problem is we've all seen this business model at work. Been there and done that BW. Good luck with that long term. Edited July 14, 2012 by Achyllis Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) That same guy calls deception a lone wolf spec. What? In an MMO game? Contradict much? This game's pvp system is a fail, half the specs are so subpar and a whole class (merc/commando) is lacking. My rage on this game is building everyday, I should just uninstall it and let the sub run out. And Achyllis is correct, they are purposely rotating the FOTM. Edited July 14, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 You mean the longest running pay to play mmo? Yeah, what an absolute failure that was. Wouldn't that be EQ1 or Ultima Online? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Playing properly doesn't make them any less unbalanced or underpowered. If a properly played class is still not within 5% of [insert x class here] in DPS and are useless in either PvP or PvE (or both) -- it's not a L2P issue. It's a balance issue. Screwing with PvE for the sake of balancing PvP is stupid. Developers should take the ArenaNet approach and balance the skills appropriately with separate skill effects in warzones. IE. Skill A has 90% armor penetration in PvE but in PvP it's reduced to 50%. And don't even mentioned open world pvp. There isn't any. This^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 *Read response, see's signature* Ah you're one of those people. If by meaning "one of those people" who aren't complete fanbois living in lala land with his head up his *** then you'd be 100% correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnFish Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 UHHHHHHHHH He was talking about deception specced Assasins - not EVERY class - just that one. Good job taking it out of context OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 lol what? Delusions! He must have been one of those forum trolls on SWG in denial saying that game was balanced way back when. These are the same type of people we are dealing with now.....same ****, different game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnsTwoThree Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 UHHHHHHHHH He was talking about deception specced Assasins - not EVERY class - just that one. Good job taking it out of context OP Even out of context do you really think these guys have anything else to say that would make them actually look like they have the slightest idea on how to make PvP in SWTOR fun again? They dropped the ball in 1.2 and the trip downhill just keeps getting faster and faster from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Even out of context do you really think these guys have anything else to say that would make them actually look like they have the slightest idea on how to make PvP in SWTOR fun again? They dropped the ball in 1.2 and the trip downhill just keeps getting faster and faster from here. Fun is subjective, you can not possibly balance the game around something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ntranced Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 UHHHHHHHHH He was talking about deception specced Assasins - not EVERY class - just that one. Good job taking it out of context OP Actually he was talking about just one class but this is just yet another dev comment relating to all classes - sorc/sage healing "you're playing it wrong", operative DPS "just fine now that there aren't teams of them stunlocking people to unsub", Mara/PT overtuned DPS (and in the case of Mara almost constant defensive cooldown) "yup, working as intended". So we have a combination of issues in play here - firstly balance isn't right (I won't even start on this in detail) and skill levels for some classes are too high. Then we add in devs that just can't see beyond their own metrics (which don't match to the playerbase metrics in the case of PVE and don't match to what is clearly happening in game for PVP). Most serious players who want to continue playing have re-reolled to a simple to play class that puts out the DPS (or a simple to play class that can heal without folding in 3-4 GCDs). And don't get me started on how many keybinds a Mara has or how "difficult" they are to play. I have one and Mara/Sents aren't fooling anyone with this BS. The only difference in keybinds for my DPS sorc is the three extra ones for the defensive cooldowns (because I have none of those on a sorc). If you are hoping for any realistic balance changes in this game you might as well forget it and get ready for GW2. Georg may be gone but his attitude towards paying customers and their concerns lives on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsakenKing Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 (edited) I started a shadow so that way i could play infiltration. because of how horrible it is in pvp, im stuck playing as a tank/dps hybrid to be of any use/desirable to the team. thanks BW for crapping on how i wanted to play. Hell, i cant even bring my GS from a different server to my preferred because of how great this yall are. I like this game but statements like this piss me off and seem to come about twice a month. Edited July 14, 2012 by ForsakenKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Fun is subjective, you can not possibly balance the game around something like that. Yes you can. You can design a game that is fun for everyone without screwing up balance, you just need to use your brain and not copy WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nastynas Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 The truth hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Yes you can. You can design a game that is fun for everyone without screwing up balance, you just need to use your brain and not copy WoW. You know what subjective means right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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