We NEED a viable Gap Closer..

[skotish]

We don't need a gap closer. We just need a more realiable way of staying in stealth and staying on our target without being seen or broken out of stealth. BW has based us so much on stealth that once we lose it, we're screwed. And once we're in combat, any level of displacement puts us in a situation where we're useless until we change targets or just make the long trip back to where we started.

 

This and more of this. A lower cd of dissapearing act would suit me on my scoundrel

[FunkyShampoo]

I think operatives definitely need a gap closer. Currently, Operatives do not have the DPS or utility to

warrant the comparatively low amount of up-time on their target that is the consequence of their lack

of an effective gap closer with a relatively short cool-down. This denies Operative DPS the very foundation

of their existence: the ability to deal damage to enemy targets in a playing field in which they are given the

tools with which to compete against others who are playing in the same role (DPS).

 

Operatives have pitiful ranged damage and our off-healing is not compensation for this.

Rifle Shot, Fragmentation Grenade, Corrosive Dart, and Corrosive Grenade (Lethality) are not significant

sources of ranged damage and as such do not constitute a reasonable explication to deny us a gap closer.

I've read some write about using the environment to provide ourselves with an edge but I must say that this is

a ridiculous notion, given that Non-Operatives can use the environment to the detriment of their opponents

with equitable or superior efficacy.

 

Stealth is a powerful defensive and offensive ability but we can't use it to close a gap in combat outside of a 2 minute cool-down.Stealth is not a replacement fora gap closer unless we can use it often enough to grant us the same amount of melee up-time on our opponents as the other melee DPS are privy to. That however would likely give us a ridiculously powerful defense, which would make us over-powered. The current PVP scene is unfair to Operatives because we just don't have the tools to deal with the myriad of slows, knock-backs, immobilizes, stuns, or incapacitates that all DPS are subject to.

 

Though I'm not a developer and I'm not privy to the tools they possess with which to gauge the performance of the

DPS classes in an accurate manner that is representative of the majority of the population of DPS Operatives, I still believe that Operative DPS are currently disadvantaged and use my experience playing an Operative DPS in both PVP and PVE to justify this belief. Providing us with a new ability that immediately closes the gap (I'm thinking of what Shadowstep is for Rogues in WoW), say on a 30~45 second cool-down, in addition to an increase in the range of Sever Tendon to 30 meters and making it irremovable by Cure or Toxin Scan, would dissolve that disadvantage.

[Tadus]

Pretty sure Stealth is the mother of all gap closers. If you get punted and are taking a beating, run behind a pillar or a wall. As of yet, I do not think any class has an ability that shoots through walls, though i suspect marauders will get that ability in 1.4

[MobiusZero]

Pretty sure Stealth is the mother of all gap closers. If you get punted and are taking a beating, run behind a pillar or a wall. As of yet, I do not think any class has an ability that shoots through walls, though i suspect marauders will get that ability in 1.4

 

I'm pretty sure the very definition of "gap closer" does not include stealth. A gap closer, is the ability to travel a medium or long distance instantly or very quickly. Stealth does not do that, and is therefore not a gap closer.

 

In fact, stealth actually slows down your run speed, so is the exact opposite of a gap closer!

[Trauglodyte]

I'm pretty sure the very definition of "gap closer" does not include stealth. A gap closer, is the ability to travel a medium or long distance instantly or very quickly. Stealth does not do that, and is therefore not a gap closer.

 

In fact, stealth actually slows down your run speed, so is the exact opposite of a gap closer!

 

Technically, a gap closer is any ability that moves you from point A to a place where you choose to initiate combat. The term "gap closer" has bee bastardized since WoW because Charge (there and here) was an instant teleport. The truth is that stealth is a gap closer in the sense that you can move practically unseen and then start combat at a point of time and in a location you desire.

 

The fact that stealth is so limited is the primary problem. Two ACs have access to completely see through our stealth and the weird lag and location desyncs cause a lot of people to see you when you shouldn't be seen. Add to that the -15% run speed (-30% before talents) and the fact that you've got to avoid random AoEs and people with sticky grenades or targets of grenades and you see the problem. Hell, we're a pure stealth class and yet we don't have a reduction talent for Sneak (Assassins/Shadows do, though).

 

We don't need a gap closer in the form of leap or pull. What we need is for Stealth to be fixed, a talent to prevent having stealth be broken by random AoE (or having it break 2s after you vanish - LOVELY use of a cool down), and the ability to avoid CC once we've broken stealth. We can get to who we want to get to, we just can't easily do it without going around God's elbow.

 

 

 

PS> As someone with a Jugg alt, I can tell you that it is annoying as Hell charging in only to get knocked off the legdes in HB. The problem with the lack of an easy gap closer is magnified by that map to the point of madness. There is a HUGE difference between waiting 15s to leap again but it is almost as maddening as when I get pushed on my Op.

[MobiusZero]

Technically, a gap closer is any ability that moves you from point A to a place where you choose to initiate combat. The term "gap closer" has bee bastardized since WoW because Charge (there and here) was an instant teleport. The truth is that stealth is a gap closer in the sense that you can move practically unseen and then start combat at a point of time and in a location you desire.

 

I disagree.

 

Stealth is as much of a gap closer as pressing the forward key. That is not what the term "gap closer" means.

 

Personally, I think it's crazy that Operatives don't have a sprint ability.

Edited July 12, 2012 by MobiusZero

[Fallenturtle]

I disagree.

 

Stealth is as much of a gap closer as pressing the forward key. That is not what the term "gap closer" means.

 

Personally, I think it's crazy that Operatives don't have a sprint ability.

 

The Final boss in denova is an excellent reason why we need a gap closer.

[Individual]

We have a viable gap closer already, it's called Sever Tendon.

[MobiusZero]

We have a viable gap closer already, it's called Sever Tendon.

 

No, a slow and/or root is also not a gap closer. I'm sick of people throwing out what they think is a gap closer.

 

A slow and/or root can be cleansed, and has nothing to do with your character covering a distance instantly or very quickly.

 

And as far as slows and roots are concerned, our class has one of the worst abilities to do so! A marauder, for example, can basically spam a slow at will, but also can force leap (gap closer) every 15 seconds. Sever Tendon, relatively speaking, is a pretty pathetic root/slow.

Edited July 13, 2012 by MobiusZero

[willyshoot]

No, a slow and/or root is also not a gap closer. I'm sick of people throwing out what they think is a gap closer.

 

A slow and/or root can be cleansed, and has nothing to do with your character covering a distance instantly or very quickly.

 

And as far as slows and roots are concerned, our class has one of the worst abilities to do so! A marauder, for example, can basically spam a slow at will, but also can force leap (gap closer) every 15 seconds. Sever Tendon, relatively speaking, is a pretty pathetic root/slow.

 

I am with you on that one.. people who spout out "we have sever tendon and stealth" clearly have no idea what the term gap CLOSER means. Its not rocket science ... when you click the ability the gap that was there should no longer be there... i.e. the gap is now closed!!

 

Why the f*** people think sever tendon will close a gap is beyond me.. why people think stealth is a gap closer is ridiculous.. if I go into stealth i will run slower.. it's even less effective than simply running forward!

[Trauglodyte]

I won't argue semantics here. You find Stealth to not be, some of us think that it is. Personally, I don't feel the need for a leap or pull and find both to be tools that don't fit the AC. The lack of a sprint is troubling and definitely wanted. The point that I'm trying to make, and one that everyone seems to gloss over, isn't that we need a gap CLOSER but rather tat we need the ability to get from point A to point B, in stealth, in a quicker fastion, in a way that will not screw us by having people see us or incidentally blow us out of stealth, and a means by which we can stay on our target once we break stealth.

 

Everyone wants a gap closer because it meets all three of those criteria. I'd take a grapple gun like Blizz has or like you see in the cut scene at the end of the IA story. But, if given the choice, I'd much rather have some talents that achieve the above rather than an additional ability. As it stands, we've got a talent hole in Energy Screen (we shouldn't be penalized with 6s of no healing when we use a defensive cool down and we don't ever dodge enough attacks to make the energy gain viable) and Pinned Down should be a baseline ability for a snare that is limited to 10m. Finally, Sever Tendon should be added onto Slip Away.

[MobiusZero]

I won't argue semantics here.

 

It's not a matter of semantics. You are arguing with the very definition of what a gap closer is. To say otherwise, is simply misusing the term.

 

The lack of a sprint is troubling and definitely wanted.

 

That's all people are trying to say. All this "stealth is a gap closer" nonsense, is simply working against this type of thing being introduced.

 

Simply put - If you truly feel that a lack of sprint is troubling, then stop trying to argue that stealth is a gap closer, because it's not helping.

[Rizael]

Coldin: Every class who fights primarily in melee range (Assassins, Warriors, Powertechs) gets some kind of ability they can use to close the distance outside of 30 meters. That is except for Operatives. What's the reasoning behind the Operative's apparent lack of ability to quickly get within range to deal their most powerful attacks?

 

Austin: In PvP, the short answer is a combination of stealth (including Cloaking Screen), the ability to self-cleanse, and the ability to self-heal. Operatives also benefit from a good deal of control with snares, Sleep Dart, Debilitate, and Flash Bang, with additional roots, snares, and knockdowns available in skill trees. However, those things don't offer much benefit in boss fights that demand a high level of mobility and target switching. The question for us becomes one of how to best introduce a "fix" for a few encounters without dramatically impacting gameplay in other game modes or environments. That's a much longer answer, and something of an ongoing discussion. High mobility fights and encounters with a lot of target switching are proving to be fun ways for our Operations designers to challenge players. So with that theme keeping up, this issue is quickly floating to the top of our priority list.

 

Source

 

Its okay guys heal is a gap closer! Its so nice that we have a heal that we should not use in PvE or PvP as it wastes far too much time and energy to cast. But it makes a convenient scape goat when someone needs a justification for missing abilities. In all honesty though I don't believe we need a gap closer at all, once I get on a target they are stuck with me, and not to mention the increase in base movement speed helps as well (which was failed to be mentioned in the question).

 

Also in there is them talking about the deception assassin as "does not play well with others", why is it then that almost every single dps class in the game (and most tanks) have no issues defeating deception sins in one on one conflicts, shouldn't a class that is a lone wolf dominate a "team friendly dps" character like the marauder? It just does not happen in reality though. My hope is when they finally introduce cross server queues they will look at statistics from the high rated players and realize that there is no place for a lone wolf class that is not an alpha.

 

Screw the ideal world metrics on hitting target dummies and get some statistics from good players for proper balancing.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Rizael
I ate a puppy

[Rassuro]

DPS Operatives want a gap closer? Just go into stealth so that you run slower, problem solved....

 

Throughout all of this, to me it has always seemed as though there have been different people involved in designing the classes who have had contradictory opinions, and it has led to the game contradicting itself a lot.

 

Based on the "no gap closer, you have stealth and heals instead" part, in my own opinion it does seem as though someone sometime in the design stage decided that Operatives should be the class which is slow to get to it's target, but then once they are at the target, they are deadly. It would then require the Operative to quickly burst down the target without letting it get away, and the target would need to try to neutralize the burst and then exploit the Operative's weaknesses. If the target gets away, the Operative has heals, re-stealth, and can try again later.

 

The problem is that this is not how it currently works because Operative burst and ability to control the target is no better than that of other classes.

 

On the other hand, the problem if it worked like that is that other classes would become frustrated if they can't facetank everything, and would lead to those classes not having fun instead...

[MobiusZero]

Also in there is them talking about the deception assassin as "does not play well with others", why is it then that almost every single dps class in the game (and most tanks) have no issues defeating deception sins in one on one conflicts, shouldn't a class that is a lone wolf dominate a "team friendly dps" character like the marauder? It just does not happen in reality though. My hope is when they finally introduce cross server queues they will look at statistics from the high rated players and realize that there is no place for a lone wolf class that is not an alpha.

 

Screw the ideal world metrics on hitting target dummies and get some statistics from good players for proper balancing.

 

Yeah, I'm sick of all their "metric" crap. They pretty much told all Deception Assasins that their issues are L2P issues. Sounds just like most of the idiots I have to argue with on the forums. As far as I'm concerned, they can take their precious metrics and shove them where the sun don't shine!

 

This last community blog just about ruined all my confidence in Bioware's ability to balance their game well.

 

I've never in my 16 years of playing MMOs, played a game that had such a huge disparity between classes played. The whole 20 to 1 Marauder to Operative ratio, in RWZ, just about slammed the nail in the coffin, as far as I'm concerned (Not that the game is dying - Though the game balance being dead is a start down that path.).

Edited July 15, 2012 by MobiusZero

[coldserpent]

I disagree.

 

Stealth is as much of a gap closer as pressing the forward key. That is not what the term "gap closer" means.

 

Personally, I think it's crazy that Operatives don't have a sprint ability.

 

I wouldn't mind having a sprint option, but the big questions are: How long should the sprint option last? How much of a speed boost should the sprint ability give? What about the cooldown duration? Doesn't the Operative get a speed boost(depending on spec) whether they are Medicine(Evasive Imperative), Concealment(Advanced Cloaking), or Lethality(via Debilitate)?

 

In LOTRO, the Champion class had a sprint ability, that at one point could last anywhere from 8 to 45 seconds(if the Champion was built right). Is a 5-10 second sprinting window too long? Of course at this duration suggestion, it wouldn't be as big of a movement boost as Force Speed.

[Trauglodyte]

It's not a matter of semantics. You are arguing with the very definition of what a gap closer is. To say otherwise, is simply misusing the term.

 

It is absolutely a matter of semantics. People are screaming for a leap kind of skill and we don't need it. The only map where that kind of gap closer is even remotely needed is Huttball and in that WZ, leaps are absolutely retarded OP because you get to avoid everything that makes the map problematic.

 

You arguing against whether stealth is or isn't a gap closer is an example of people not appreciating or acknowledging that power of stealth. Like leaps and pulls, it allows you to initiate combat how you choose thus providing you with an advantage. The limitation, and a horrible one in this game, is that you're slowed and susceptable to having it broken by random AE or seen through by stupid coding. But, I digress...

 

That's all people are trying to say. All this "stealth is a gap closer" nonsense, is simply working against this type of thing being introduced.

 

Simply put - If you truly feel that a lack of sprint is troubling, then stop trying to argue that stealth is a gap closer, because it's not helping.

 

....I'm not arguing agains the need for a sprint. I agreed with you earlier in the post (I think I did, anyway) and I'm agreeing with you now. We just not need whatever incarnation of SW stealth leap for which the masses are screaming. My biggest hinderance in PvP is that I spend so much damned time in stealth to get the advantage that I'm losing valuable combat time. That doesn't mean that I want to strap a jet pack to my butt or somehow defy the rules of physics. A sprint works quite well and I welcome it with open arms.

 

Now, to take the arguement a bit further. Beyond helping us get into combat, even if we get it, this really doesn't change things. We still lack the tools to stay on our target (in HB), lack the ability to avoid being broken out of stealth while getting to our target, or surviving once we get there. If we are the non-force equivalent "lone wolves" to the Deception Assassin, then yes we need the sprint. But all 4 of the pure stealth AC specs need help in what I just mentioned before we'll ever be able to a force beyond front loaded/back loaded burst.

[MobiusZero]

It is absolutely a matter of semantics.

 

The very definition of what a gap closer is, does not allow for stealth to be included. In fact, stealth is the reverse of a gap closer, since it actually reduces your run speed.

 

You arguing against whether stealth is or isn't a gap closer is an example of people not appreciating or acknowledging that power of stealth. Like leaps and pulls, it allows you to initiate combat how you choose thus providing you with an advantage.

 

I've been playing almost primarily stealth classes in every single game I have played since my first MUD in '96. I appreciate full well the value of stealth, and have pointed that out to people for years, in most games.

 

The problem, is that the dynamics of this game are far too different. Typically, ranged survivability in most games is far less than melee, thus making it an imperative for range classes to try their best to stay at range - If a ranged class tried to go toe to toe with melee, they'd get stomped. But then games started introducing all these silly gap closers, which then in turn forced them to have to beef up ranged classes either DPS or survivability wise.

 

In this game, the line between melee and range, and the balance between them, is far too fine. The sniper is about the only ranged class that actually goes by more traditional dynamics (because of their cover mechanics.), which is also why they fear stealth classes the most.

 

But when it comes to other classes, that fear is less than in other games, since a range class isn't so disadvantaged here, when a melee class gets the jump on them. Sure, there is still some value in it, but far far less than in most games I have played as a stealth class.

 

But all this aside, even if stealth were far more valuable, it would still not rightfully be considered a gap closer.

 

My biggest hinderance in PvP is that I spend so much damned time in stealth to get the advantage that I'm losing valuable combat time. That doesn't mean that I want to strap a jet pack to my butt or somehow defy the rules of physics. A sprint works quite well and I welcome it with open arms.

 

This was exactly the main reason I went Lethality early on, back in January. For me, stealth was merely a crutch when playing Concealment, and I never felt it was worth the time to set up, when I could do more damage just using snipe, or rifle shots, or explosive probe, etc., in that time I would have spent getting into melee range stealthed.

 

I probably, at most, spend 5% of my time stealthed in a WZ, as Lethality. Granted, some of that is due to DoT's keeping me in combat, but usually I prefer to not be stealthed, because I lose the +30% run speed. It's just not that valuable when your DPS isn't tied to it in any way.

Edited July 16, 2012 by MobiusZero

[Sangrar]

I have a Scoundrel which is the equivelent of an operative and you don't need a gap closer, you already get ranged abilities from your regular Imperial agent abilities and some of the operative training, so you can fight ranged and melee so you can adapt to any situation and still come out on top, reliance on one style or strategy can often get you killed in my experience.

[Recon_Grim]

I have a Scoundrel which is the equivelent of an operative and you don't need a gap closer, you already get ranged abilities from your regular Imperial agent abilities and some of the operative training, so you can fight ranged and melee so you can adapt to any situation and still come out on top, reliance on one style or strategy can often get you killed in my experience.

 

What level is your scoundrel, may I ask?

[Coldin]

The Final boss in denova is an excellent reason why we need a gap closer.

 

Pretty much. That fight is very annoying on a scoundrel. I get my sabatoge charge off, and maybe a thermal grenade....and then it's the long run to the mob while basic attacking. All the while, the rest of my team is beating on the next mob in melee already.

[Coldin]

Source

 

Its okay guys heal is a gap closer! Its so nice that we have a heal that we should not use in PvE or PvP as it wastes far too much time and energy to cast. But it makes a convenient scape goat when someone needs a justification for missing abilities. In all honesty though I don't believe we need a gap closer at all, once I get on a target they are stuck with me, and not to mention the increase in base movement speed helps as well (which was failed to be mentioned in the question).

 

Yeah. I forgot to mention the +15% move speed. Not what I'd consider a replacement for a gap closer though, since other classes get similar abilities. And while an Operative can kind of keep an opponent in melee range, there's not much an operative can do if they use a knockback or sprint against the operative.

 

Stealth...doesn't really function as a proper gap closer. It gives you the opportunity to surprise your opponent and get in the first attack, but it's not going to let you make up distance. Plus, Assassins have stealth, and still get a Sprint and a talented grapple.

[Kurokage]

It's not a matter of semantics. You are arguing with the very definition of what a gap closer is. To say otherwise, is simply misusing the term.

 

Semantics: (noun) The meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text.

 

It is definitely a matter of semantics. You're arguing over the meaning of a word.

 

Anyway, as someone who primarily plays an Operative, I honestly agree that, as they are now, Operatives aren't very good at closing the distance to melee range, especially in larger battles with lots of AoEs all over the place acting like a minefield to break stealth. Staying in melee range is also difficult. But I don't think we need a "gap closer" as MobiusZero would define it. Buffing stealth a bit would certainly help. Having some other penalty instead of a decreased run speed, or giving us a short-ranged sprint usable in combat and/or stealth, would help. Just having some way to quickly close the gap while remaining in stealth would be a godsend. It doesn't necessarily have to be something incredibly fast, but rather something that allows us to move faster than the stealth run speed with less risk of breaking stealth.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Kurokage

[AruthaWolf]

I'd like to state what i think a gap closer is:

You start a fight, they use a knockback to get you off their ledge, you use a gap closer to get you back into fight.

Stealth does not fit this description because you have to run all the way back to them by that time they have moved.