AP Better than Pyro for Ranked!

[dijskykiller]

Ive been playing Iron Fist, AP, an Pyro while levelling in PVP. Im not neatly as experienced as most of you guys with this class but I can say that Pyro has great burst and 1v1 damage, AP has more utility, AOE, and better heat management. Its a tradeoff, both are great specs, just different roles.

 

 

 

I have 2 questions:

What gear are you using?

Are you using NORSe or a build that does use RS?

 

As a fresh 50 any advice would be appreciated.

 

It's actually norse, the 12 sec rule is crucial in achieving overall dps. Of course, you also need to time PFT right and setting it up to hit the most number of targets without being stunned is key.

Edited July 15, 2012 by dijskykiller

[FeralPug]

If anyone can show me that AP can do well in ranked its you. Keep doing your thing bro. I've seen some amazingly fast kill times with two pyrotechs but I can definitely see where you're coming from on the guarded healer topic. Best of luck to you.

 

Don't get me wrong I am still skeptical and want to see your results, let me know how your ranked endeavors progress!

 

We'll see! I'll be the first to switch back to pyro if it doesn't benefit my ranked team.

[FeralPug]

Link to my build:

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/bounty_hunter/powertech/#::fef5ef5ef7e3fe7fe7fef16

 

I like railshot a lot. I'm routinely getting 3k with it after the 100% RS crit proc. Great distance move, and a great finisher on fleeing targets. Just don't waste it on a bubbled target.

[dijskykiller]

I'm currently running this ap/pyro hybrid now for rated and I think it's decent because you have both the feel of pyro's burst and ap's burst and utility. If some of you guys can do some testing on this spec in rateds too, I would gladly appreciate. I want to know if this build benefits the team more since there are situations that AP>Pyro or vice versa. Let me know what you think. You have a downgraded single-target burst (but it's there) with the ability to use HO and PFT for crowd control.

 

Extreme Prototype

Edited July 15, 2012 by dijskykiller

[Akfourtys]

As AP my fully stacked PTF ticks 4 times for 2600 if I get all four crits.

Slowly crawling to 2.6k ticks as well. Can u share your setup at http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character please?

[lolcthulhu]

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu294/FretlessFury/SWTOR/Screenshot_2012-07-14_09_34_31_928504.jpg

 

My stats for the match are at the very top. You can see my active cylinder, and the second hotkey in my main bar is Immolate.

 

I remember you saying something about the highest dps you had seen in a warzone was around 850 by a DPS assassin in one of your other posts. I dont normally screenshot my damage or dps in warzones but after noticing the number i figured i'd share it with you.

 

http://i49.tinypic.com/6sds8x.jpg

8/2/31 pyrotech

 

EDIT: Heres a ranked game I did earlier, pyrotechs so funny lol

http://i45.tinypic.com/5bv0pi.jpg

Edited July 18, 2012 by lolcthulhu

[Gnugthreeonefive]

The best ranked guilds bring 1-2 PT/Vang (in pyro) for the burst.

Actually, we bring 3. Sometimes we joke about bringing 8, but don't want to make ppl ragequit the game.

[dijskykiller]

After testing both AP, Pyro and AP/Pyro Hybrid. I'm gonna say that I now agree that pyro is definitely the way to go in rated warzones. Burst is really a key to getting the upper hand in any warzone, even huttball, with a different role of course. Focusing is pyro's edge since it boast up with its single-target burst in the least amount of time and it can drop a ball-carrier real fast with proper teamwork. The "demoralizing effect" is the most important part of it where the target panics after seeing his/her health reduced to <50% in seconds. And since soloing is easier with that frontload damage it brings, it's easier to ambush a door/node with quick results. AP is also viable but it is not as important as a pyro because its DPS relies on the number of targets available. So for me pyro is more flexible since you can go in a large group and deliver single-burst while ap has to always be in a large group to deliver its AoEs and burn multiple targets. Though I love to see how high my overall dps on the board every match because my AP's is better than my Pyro's. Killing targets fast is always > dealing high damage to targets but slowly killing them.

 

On the other hand, The AP/Pyro Hybrid (Extreme Prototype) is kind of enjoyable to use since you can apply both playstyles and on an appropriate situation. The burst is there, just downgraded and you got the 2 situational talents, PFT & HO.

[LordExozone]

I really want to like AP, but imho it's just lacking for PvP. Yes the added survivability Hydraulic brings is very nice, but since that speed buff is overwritten by sprint, the strength of the spec (mobility) is partially negated.

 

DPS is okey, but abilities do not have that nice synergy Pyro has. Retractable Blade hovers in the tree as an odd appendage (seriously, a no cooldown spammable ability, with a 15 second fairly poor dot that doesn't stack? Then a 6 second 30% slow if specced for it?...so you either use it every 15 second and only slow half the time, or use it every 6 seconds and throw away over half the damage...)

 

You also need to keep track of 3 different procs. First the stacks for prototype flamethrower. Then the proc for the free Rocket Punch. And finally proc for the auto-crit for railshot. It didn't feel intuitive for me.

 

Prototype Flamethrower even with the buffs is too situational. With the fairly long cooldown, it only takes a single short duration stun like our own carbon freeze aoe to severely neuter the AP's damage output. When you do manage to get it off, people are usually not standing still in a brawl so often you only get a single or maybe 2 ticks on players even with the 70% slow. I admit practice takes a big part in that, but it's still not worth the effort vs reward, as the damage it does even with the 5 stacks is not that amazing either.

 

Also, I find it odd that a tree called Advanced Prototype utilizes more fire attacks than the Pyrotech tree. Whilst the Pyrotech tree relies much more on railshots.

Edited July 22, 2012 by LordExozone

[lolcthulhu]

Also, I find it odd that a tree called Advanced Prototype utilizes more fire attacks than the Pyrotech tree. Whilst the Pyrotech tree relies much more on railshots.

 

Well, Pyro "tech" has a lot of of the incendiary tech weapons. Thermal Detonator is a bomb for instance, and incendiary missile is well, a missile, or Super Heated Rail. Its more focused on the "tech" aspect imo, makes sense in my head at least

Edited July 23, 2012 by lolcthulhu

[blet]

AP

Bonus damage = 950

Life = 19400

Crit = 32%

Surge = 79%

 

Immo = 4K2 crit

RS = 3K4

Flame Burst = 2K9 crit

Flame Thrower = 9K crit

Explosive Dart = 1K7

The heat dispell per second is completly awesome, you just can spam all the time

The spec is "faceroll" > IMMO/FB/FB/FB/FB/FB etc....

Do not forget to charge up you Flame Thrower while out of combat with Flame Sweep

Voidstar>Best spec

playing AP is "harder" than playing as Pyro because it's CAC mainly so you need to really think at where you are,

talking about gameplay AP is really easier than pyro, and whenever you are outnumbered AP Dps goes higher as you can burst several targets.

(Flame Thrower full crit/5stack on 3 enemy>9k)

Combined to AOE dps the burst is very strong

Edited July 23, 2012 by blet

[TheronFett]

I'll chime in as well. Been a Powertech since beta, and have extensively played all 3 specs, though AP by far the least. And there's a reason for that: it's still a sub-par spec.

 

As far as PvP goes, AP is a huge mistake if you solo queue most of your matches in my opinion. AP just doesn't have enough burst damage to stand on its own, and since no one is really going to help you focus targets or keep an eye on your health in a PUG, you're far better off with Pyro. That said...

 

AP is a good spec if you queue with friends/guildies, and is also viable for PvE. The added utility/mobility/survivabilty offered by AP in addition to Proto FT can make short work of PvE encounters. It's also a good "assist" spec for PvP. You can help Rage Juggs by setting up Proto FT and nuking down the same targets they are using their AoE Smash bomb on. You can also help Marauders with additional DPS/DoTs/utility. You can be another ball carrier in Huttball. I can see where AP would work well with ranked teams, but most are going to want Pyro instead.

 

AP seems a bit wonky to me. There just isn't a lot of synergy between skills, it just seems kind of thrown together.

[Invictusthetaru]

I have been leveling as full tactics since I started my vanguard. I am now lvl 42 and have to say this nonsense about no "synergy" in the build and "clunkiness" is absolutely mind boggling to me.

 

It's as fluid as the marauder I play, or the vigilance guardian that I play, probably the most fluid class in the game (vig guardian).

 

not a great 1v1 spec? What? Is this a joke? I have no problem taking on ANY melee, no matter what their level is. Start every fight w/ gut, if snaring is key keep it up every 6 seconds, use RS on proc, immolate, stockstrike, ion pulse, create ~7 m desperation and use pulse cannon.

 

There are visual cues when you get your procs so you don't need to watch for them on the bar. Stuns don't hurt as much in a 1v1 because you get the dmg mitigation, not to mention you can even be proactive with your stun and save it for pulse cannon.

 

All of that aside, you can always have 5 stacks up at the start of every fight by using your AOE move periodically by moving between destinations. This is massive AOE burst on demand the second you hit a node.

 

I understand the benefits of pyro > AP but don't make stuff up like the class isn't fluid, especially when there are people playing it that feel like it flows very well.

 

Here is an example of how the synergy is supposed to work and supposed to be played:

 

10 m > immolate (procs free stockstrike) > move in gut (snare) > stockstrike (free, while moving back to 10 m w/ target snared) > ion pulse > ion pulse > ion pulse > re snare if necessary or stun > immolate > pulse cannon at 7-9 meters.

 

Boom you have officially kept a melee target at 10 m after a free stock strike and snare because those are the only moves you need to hit at short range.

 

If their leap is up or they snare you at any point, hold the line and keep distance at 7-10 m.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Invictusthetaru

[TheronFett]

Just for giggles, I decided to respec to AP and give it a go again. 1st PvP match was Voidstar, and I cashed in 857k damage with 0 deaths in a PUG. That's coming from a former Shieldtech in gear that is still somewhat gimped. I'll run with AP for a week or so and see how it goes, if for no other reason than it's something different.

 

Immolate still cracks me up. Very cool animation and players always scatter when they see it because they think it's an AoE.

[TKMaster]

I used a hybrid build that really suited my playstyle while lvl'ing and in pre-50 pvp......finally gave in after reading this thread and went 31 deep in Pyro.......wow, im a pyromaniac now! Edited July 30, 2012 by TKMaster

[NoTomorrow]

Everytime i immolate, i giggle

[SneiK]

Sadly, this is not the case. As others have pointed out, PT Pyro is there just for the burst DPS, nothing more. And as AP, you are not bringing utility that others don't alrdy have, and will not bring the DPS as Pyro does.

 

We shall see once 1.4 hits. I hope they don't just focus nerfing pyro down, as AP still needs some love. Due to the server issues, PFT is not out there as a viable ability.

 

It deals dmg late, especially the snare, and especially to moving targets, making it easy to get out of. Needs an early slow/root before PFT full stacks to make it more viable (say, to Flame Sweep that would brake on dmg). Atm, PFT is only useable via graplle/carb combo, as you can make sure you get at least 2 in the blast (control), and will start dealing dmg to stationary targets -> server can handle it and applies the snare + dmg, or if your opponents play bad.

Edited August 24, 2012 by SneiK

[DacRycar]

Advanced Prototype/Tactics is certainly a fun and enjoyable tree; however, I feel the development team in charge of this class weren't sure of what to do with regards to a second DPS tree for the Powertech/Vanguard.

 

The middle tree offers many great talents in the high tiers, including HO/HtL. This ability alone is worth going up the tree for; however, Retractable Blade/Gut is, for many players, a skill only taken because "they have to" in order to gain the really useful talents. Some specs even spec around RB/Gut, avoiding it all together! It is widely disputed that the cost-to-damage ratio of the ability makes it a less than desirable talent.

 

Finally, what makes AP/Tactics the "red-headed stepchild" spec for Powertechs and Vanguards is the tree's lack of burst damage. Its already been said in previous posts in this thread, but this tree's lack of a One-Two Punch combo –*like Pyro's TB/RS –*gives this damage build more "sustained" damage rather than "burst" damage*–*and sustained damage is the "healer-friendly" kind for your opponent. In PvP, you don't want "healer-friendly" damage; you want to push the enemy's healer and force them to make a mistake. The best way to do that is by having burst damage.

 

I certainly hope the SWTOR developer team for Powertech and Vanguards are taking these threads as feedback and working to help improve both damage trees for the advanced class! I would certainly love to see the utility of AP/Tactics be a viable and wanted spec in Ranked Warzones, and I would certainly like to see Pyro/Assault maintain a niche as well.

[SneiK]

AP gets plenty of burst. It's just that you have to be pretty much 4m to get that DMG in, and that's not gona make you the top DPS of the match (because we have no leap). It's the 30m TD that's creating imbalance as Pyro can be a DMG dealing machine pretty much 24/7. It starts it's rotation 30m - while getting to that <10m range - and it continues to burst even then. And when the enemies try to run, they have their 30m CDs back.

 

Also, AP relies on PFT like Pyro relies on Railshot. But the server issues make PFT a luckbuster talent mostly. BW figures how to make PFT work, then AP will be good indeed.

 

All I'm hoping, is that BW don't go ape ****, and nerf Pyro like so it kills all other specs as well (that are alrdy pretty dead). I do agree that the Pyro needs some changes, I just hope they start with a small one first (TD 10m range).

Edited August 26, 2012 by SneiK

[FeralPug]

Hey folks,

 

Just chiming in here. I originally posted this thread, and have spent a lot of time behind an AP powertech in and out of ranked play. I managed to get a full combat tech suit with decent itemization, and have run AP with an excellent gear set.

 

While AP is by far my favorite spec to play, I think the main flaw is the flamethrower. The damage is good. The mechanics of building the 5 stacks is cool. Against good players it's simply too easily avoided/interrupted with stuns.

 

If I were to critique the spec, I would name three fatal flaws:

 

1. The flamethrower is easily stopped avoided by good players.

2. HO is simply not a great talent as stuns get through it. It either needs to be a faster movement increase, or enable you to be immune to immobilizations and stuns.

3. Retractable blade, and all the supporting talents that you spend points on, is simply not worth all of those points. The snare is very short, the direct damage is completely lackluster and the DoT is spread out over too much time to be of any use in bolstering DPS. Too bad because it's such a great animation/idea.

 

Again, this is from someone who far prefers playing AP to pyro. Hell, I'll go so far as to say that it really is the most fun spec that I've tried thus far including engineer sniper and carnage marauder. It's extremely rewarding to build the stack of 5 PFT and unleash on a group of opponents, the animations are superb (immolate and RB), the mobility makes for fast gameplay, and the energy management is so forgiving (coming from a pyro).

 

I've switched back to pyro full time for my ranked play. Pyro is simply too strong right now to justify spending time in AP.

 

Would love to see AP better tuned for ranked play. I'm sure BW is getting the metrics which will bear out our conclusions. In all my ranked games, I've yet to see a single other PT/VG running AP/Tactics. In unranked on my server there are maybe two other PT's who run AP, and I haven't seen either in maybe two weeks.

 

I still run it in unranked because it's just so much fun, but I've come to the conclusion that for ranked games my team needs me as a pyro.

[Suryi]

 

Pyro is simply too strong right now to justify spending time in AP.

 

 

Nice sum up of the situation.

 

I personally don't see why someone would go AP over Pyro unless bored of course. The only AP PT I've ever seen in ranked play worth mentioning on my server is Feta and while he can and has matched our teams Assault damage (me and another VG), it just feels that most of that is HO kiting (he's a pain to focus down and the bastard knows it ) thus staying alive + insane AoE damage. I remember an Alderaan Civil Bore that we played against Feta and his guild; the game lasted about 20 minutes and at the end Feta had done most damage but only had 16 kills as opposed to 41 for the Assaults on our team. This is obviously influenced by some other factors but it also shows how crucial Assaults burst is in high rated ranked play.

 

Only using Feta's results because like I said he's the only ap pt on my server worth mentioning in my books, not trying to be rude/cocky/etc; this one means no offense.

[Steele_dk]

I have a full combat tech geared AP pt and yes for ranked my opinion is burst>mobility so pyro>ap there.

 

in normal warzones i just love ap too much

 

it is just too much fun seing every sorc or merc use their knockback and *** Nothing happends?? lol

 

immolate is also by my opinion one of the coolest looking animation in the game, it just looks like someone has dropped a napalm bomb

 

oh and the extra speed is so addictive, whenever i am out of AP cylinder i just feel like i have a constant slow on me lol

 

but yea nothing beats the burst potentional of pyros TD+RS

[DacRycar]

it is just too much fun seing every sorc or merc use their knockback and *** Nothing happends?? lol

 

THIS! Completely THIS! Everytime I run AP (Tactics) I can almost imagine the looks on their faces IRL.

Perhaps it looks something like this: or maybe this

 

As to you, FeralPug, I appreciated reading this thread and your thoughts on AP versus Pyro and your ultimate conclusion to go back to Pyro for your team. I agree whole heartedly that AP is helluva lot of fun to play, but the burst and pure mayhem of Pyro right now trumps the sustained (read: enemy healer-friendly) and negated (read: stuns stopping Flamethrower) damage of AP.

 

Don't even get me started about the joke that Retractable Blade is though...

Edited September 5, 2012 by DacRycar

[FeralPug]

 

Don't even get me started about the joke that Retractable Blade is though...

 

Totally. And it's got to be one of the best animations/sounds in the game. It's such a missed opportunity.

 

What if instead of adding more snare/damage they added a damage debuff, accuracy debuff or a self-damage mitigation buff to RB? Or a chance to proc a buff to HO that would allow HO to give complete immunity to snares/stuns?

 

Just some off the cuff ideas that could make RB useful without making it OP...

[DacRycar]

Just some off the cuff ideas that could make RB useful without making it OP...

 

Following suit, here's an off the cuff idea of mine:

 

Retractable Blade/Gut (now with a cooldown) does heavy upfront damage with a DoT. The next Railshot/High Impact Bolt or Immolate/Flame Pulse has increased damage.