Can we, as a community, eliminate the "Grass" and "Snow" in Alderaan?

[Varicite]

The best idea is what Blizzard did in Strand of the Ancients. Color code everything. People respond much more quickly to visual cues than they do to any kind of stimulus that requires a logical processing (such as Left/Right or East/West).

 

If the nodes themselves were different colors on the map with the controlling faction's icon displayed it would be significantly simplified.

 

That could work, but they would need something other than faction icons, due to the same-faction WZ mechanics.

[Darth_Philar]

That could work, but they would need something other than faction icons, due to the same-faction WZ mechanics.

 

Red/Green circle around the icon showing hostile/friendly control.

[Varicite]

Red/Green circle around the icon showing hostile/friendly control.

 

Works for moi.

[olagaton]

Pretty much negates that entire paragraph, but thanks for trying.

I see, so you're saying that players can only face 3 ways? East, West, and either North or South (never towards their own Spawnpoint)? Gotcha.......should i even entertain anything else you have to say from this point on? You buried your credibility completely with that one.

 

Again, baseless assumption. Not even sure where you're getting this nonsense, really.

 

Do you often resort to personal insults when you don't have a valid point to make? Classy.

I'm just taking what you're telling me about yourself, so if you consider that a personal insult, then so be it, i guess. So far, you've inferred that you don't face anywhere other than East, West, and either North or South, based on which spawn point you are coming from. You also state that you don't look at the minimap as a reference point or bearing point to make the decision of whether you are going East or West.

 

So what anyone can gather from that information is that when you face North (away from your spawn point), you never attack players that go South of you, so that you can easily distinguish East from West. Because of this dysfunctional method of PvPing, I can infer that most teams who notice that you don't ever face South will go that direction and Cap the turret, which will in turn help them win the match, which will in turn lead to a drop in your rating.

 

So either you are lying when you say that you generally only look 3 out of the 4 directions, or you do use the minimap (or landmarks, perhaps) to gather your bearings to head either East or West. You've completely contradicted yourself repeatedly at this point. There is no need to get into personal attacks and insults when your argument itself opens up the path easily enough.

 

/shrug, perhaps you meant exactly what you said, but that wouldn't portray your argument any better for you.

Edited July 12, 2012 by olagaton

[Daiyukie]

I see, so you're saying that players can only face 3 ways? East, West, and either North or South (never towards their own Spawnpoint)? Gotcha.......should i even entertain anything else you have to say from this point on? You buried your credibility completely with that one.

 

If you're facing your own spawn while guarding a node, you're doing it wrong. You face your enemy's spawn at mid, you face mid at the side turrets. Not a difficult concept, but it does primarily include 3 directions. If you're sitting there spinning your camera, you're doing it wrong again.

[olagaton]

Tell that to the multi-million Mars rover that crashed because its designers were using different systems of measurement. Using multiple systems when only one is necessary seems as far from optimal as one can get.

If you're going to go that route, lets first realize what we're talking about first. We're talking about a game. NOTHING is "necessary". Winning, as a whole, isn't even necessary in SWTOR, lol, so lets try to keep things in perspective, please.

 

The only reason that I've heard people say that it is optimal is because they can see the landmarks, which as I have previously indicated is quite often not the case. I'm still waiting for someone to address this obvious flaw.

Read is all I can suggest. There are a lot more reasons within this thread than that. It's a burden typing it once hoping it will get across in the first place. It's a shame you'd have to ask for it to be repeated.

 

What other system is being used? I haven't seen one. I find it incredibly ironic that no one uses landmarks on Novare Coast when it's the only map where you can actually see all the landmarks from almost anywhere.

There are no noticeably different landmarks to use. Thus, E/W/S are the best options.

 

Again, it only seems easier because you are used to it. To anyone first learning the map, it is not. As I said previously, it's like the metric system, the only reason anyone uses anything else is because they got used to doing something else.

I guess it all comes down to importance of implementation. It's a game. Taking the time to learn East/West when there are other, quicker options to learn/retain, seemingly has very little to no value in the eyes of players. What good will it do them to spend more time deciphering East/West, and less time improving their PvP play? They already have a Snow/Grass system in play, which is much easier to learn and much easier to implement overall; why break something that works well.

 

Additionally, it's ironic that you mention the Metric system, because it's true -- people got used to using a different system, so the Metric system got tossed aside. As it stands today, Snow/Grass is still used very often in Alderaan, even after a relatively large amount of resistance and push to change to a new system. Sometimes change just doesn't happen to systems because the general population ends up not agreeing with the change. Such is the fate of Snow/Grass.

[olagaton]

If you're facing your own spawn while guarding a node, you're doing it wrong. You face your enemy's spawn at mid, you face mid at the side turrets. Not a difficult concept, but it does primarily include 3 directions. If you're sitting there spinning your camera, you're doing it wrong again.

I really hope you're not being serious. Has nobody on the forums played a skilled opponent that comes from behind them?

 

And besides, who said anything about "guarding" a node? Fights can take form in all directions. Why are people acting like SWTOR is a stick figure 2D Contra/Rush N Attack environment, where enemies can only come from one direction.

 

Try using UP UP DOWN DOWN LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT B A START next time. See if it helps your rank.

[Varicite]

I see, so you're saying that players can only face 3 ways? East, West, and either North or South (never towards their own Spawnpoint)? Gotcha.......should i even entertain anything else you have to say from this point on? You buried your credibility completely with that one.

 

No, I did not say that. You said that, just now, because you seem to have a nasty habit of trying to twist peoples' words to suit your own agenda instead of replying to what was written in its own context.

 

What I said was that I am generally facing the enemy spawn point. If I'm going to run off in a direction, I will orient myself by glancing at the spawn point (also because I don't want to be running off when there are enemies coming for the node). I'm going to assume for a moment that I don't need to explain to you what the word "generally" means, though judging by your responses, I may be doing you a disservice.

 

I know the map layout well enough to know that if I'm on the Empire side, then I run toward the right for West. That was a bit counter-intuitive when I was first learning it, I'll admit, because people aren't used to West being toward their right, but that little hiccup in normal logic is what really helped to seal that map in memory in the end.

 

It helped that same-faction WZs were not implemented for Civil War for a long time, and I leveled my first three lv50s almost exclusively through PvP. When they were implemented, it was an easy thing to remember that if I started on the Republic side, the sides were flipped.

 

I'm just taking what you're telling me about yourself, so if you consider that a personal insult, then so be it, i guess. So far, you've inferred that you don't face anywhere other than East, West, and either North or South, based on which spawn point you are coming from. You also state that you don't look at the minimap as a reference point or bearing point to make the decision of whether you are going East or West.

 

Again, no, that is what you inferred. And if you're curious as to why I don't look at the mini-map for reference when I need to run East or West in CW, you can see the above paragraphs.

 

I won't respond to the bulk of the rest of your post, as it is once again based entirely off of your own (very strange) misinterpretations of what most would consider a pretty easy-to-follow message.

 

/shrug, perhaps you meant exactly what you said, but that wouldn't portray your argument any better for you.

 

I did mean exactly what I wrote. It's a shame that you apparently read something entirely different and decided to respond to that instead. : P

Edited July 12, 2012 by Varicite

[Sock_Bramson]

Sorry guys, even if I was misguided enough to be in favor of left/right (please never do this outside of huttball), I'd have to call you out on doing an awful job of arguing with varicite. I even reread the past few pages to try to play devil's advocate, but you really didn't address any of his actual arguments. You did, however, misconstrue the living hell out of his words to try to counteract his reasonable points.

 

Seriously, how the hell do you come to the conclusion that he only faces three ways from him saying that he can stay oriented because he knows where he spawned and where the enemy spawned?

 

Why are you spending so much effort to (poorly) discredit him when he's taking a very open stance on the argument? He's said several times that he completely understands that people can use grass/snow because they are comfortable with it. Like me, though, he is questioning the need for another system when east/west works in all cases for all node-based WZs.

 

I've yet to see any of the too-long-to-type list of reasons that grass/snow is objectively better in this post. The only real attempt I've seen that isn't the subjective "I'm used to it so it's better" is it's supposedly superior visualization factor. East/west is just as easy to visualize for me, though, since I can visualize the entire map's layout. If I didn't know the map well, looking at the minimap is just as fast as looking at the ground; the latter is only useful if you're standing on one of the sides, while the former is useful no matter where you're standing.

 

I'm not trying to say that this discredits the visual aid grass/snow does, in fact, provide for the people that use it. I'm just saying that it doesn't have a leg-up over east/west in this case, since east/west is also easy to visualize for those who use it.

 

Ease of use is not the issue here. The universal applicability of east/west vs the one-WZ-only use of grass/snow is the main reason that things should be standardized.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[olagaton]

No, I did not say that. You said that, just now, because you seem to have a nasty habit of trying to twist peoples' words to suit your own agenda instead of replying to what was written in its own context.

 

What I said was that I am generally facing the enemy spawn point. If I'm going to run off in a direction, I will orient myself by glancing at the spawn point (also because I don't want to be running off when there are enemies coming for the node). I'm going to assume for a moment that I don't need to explain to you what the word "generally" means, though judging by your responses, I may be doing you a disservice.

YAY, after dozens of posts, Varicite finally admits that he uses Landmarks to orient himself to go either East or West, thus invalidating 1) his idea that East/West is much simpler than Landmarks, and 2) that he can head East or West without orienting himself either by looking at the minimap or by looking at some Landmark on the screen.

 

I know the map layout well enough to know that if I'm on the Empire side, then I run toward the right for West.

And yet you still admit that you need to orient yourself based on which direction you are facing. Granted I did twist your words (on purpose to finally get the truth out), you WILL face many different directions during PvP, which WILL DISORIENT you from your typical Left = West, Right = East directions. My point has always been that you need to orient yourself no matter which side you are on by looking at Landmarks or the Minimap, and Landmarks in the field of play will always be faster/more efficient than looking away from the field of play towards your minimap -- remember, car accidents happen because of that glance away. We don't want anyone being killed because they chose an inefficient way to check their spedometer, when it was clearly and transparently displayed on their windshield.

 

So I hope we can put this argument to rest, and agree that Landmarks that are directly in front of you (like the Spawn points or Snow/Grass) are much easier to orient yourself than looking down/up at the minimap, which is typically positioned out of the direct line of sight of the PvP action taking place.

 

Final Score

olagaton: 1

Varicite: 0

[Sock_Bramson]

The argument isn't about east/west being simpler than landmarks, it's about east/west being more useful than grass/snow. In his example, the landmarks in question (spawn points) are mainly visible from mid, and are a quick way for him to orient himself to N or S, and by extension E and W. Since he uses east/west (as do the people he plays with, most likely), the spawn points are landmarks that help him react to a call of east/west. If he was used to grass/snow, then they could help him orient that way as well. However, knowing which way grass/east are from mid requires an understanding of the maps orientation, i.e. you already know that grass is west and snow is east. For those of us that use east/west, it is quicker for us to skip the G=W/S=E step.

 

Snow/grass as landmarks are only useful when you're on the sides, while the spawn points as landmarks are only useful from the mid. Landmarks in general are useful when you've lost track of your where you are, but aren't needed when you've kept track of your orientation because the nodes themselves are the biggest landmarks. <-- Especially true when you have two points captured (both of which are exceedingly easy to see on your mini-map if need be), at which point the calling system used is moot.

 

He's already said that grass/snow is meaningful, i.e. there is nothing wrong with landmarks. You've done nothing to somehow disprove that east/west works for him. As I keep trying to get across, the main point here is that east/west is better because it can be use in all the node-based WZs. I also happen to think it's better for CW in general since it is meaningful no matter where you're standing, but it doesn't really need to be because of my last sentence.

 

olagaton: -1 (0, though a case could be made that you need to lose more points for poor argumentation earlier)

varicite: + 0 (we'll go with the 0 from your scoring system, although he's earned some points of his own already)

balanced discussion: + all the damn points

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

Edited July 12, 2012 by Sock_Bramson

[Esiqual]

This argument is pointless because at the end of the day it comes down to what terms work for your group rather then just yourself. As a group you should decide what terms you are going to use for the match and then stick to it. If you try to impose an east / west system that people arent comfortable with you end up with more problems then its worth.

 

If you are in a rated team you are all on voice chat anyway and should know each others positions and dont even need directions.

[Varicite]

I never said anything about landmarks not being useful. <.<

 

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to prove anymore, because it's certainly not against anything that I've been saying in this thread, man.

 

I've said that I find east and west personally easier to adjust to, because I am very used to having used those terms in the past.

 

It wasn't until transfers that I really encountered people using grass and snow, and had never bothered to pay attention to that prior.

 

PS) The thread isn't about "beating" me, man. <.<

Edited July 12, 2012 by Varicite

[olagaton]

The argument isn't about east/west being simpler than landmarks, it's about east/west being more useful than grass/snow.

Perhaps that is where you are misinformed.

 

The thread is about a multitude of things, including, but not limited to, what you've just mentioned.

 

My posts have proven, from a mechanical and practical and tested standpoint that Snow/Grass is much more efficient of a system than East and West. In fact, the entire argument I had with Varicite was to prove that while he may use East/West system, it's derived from and utilizes a Landmark system at it's root; thus proving that Landmark systems (like Grass/Snow) work much more efficient than East/West. He himself admitted to using Landmarks in order to orient himself for the East/West system. Essentially he, and anyone else using E/W, are voluntarily using a much more cumbersome system.

 

Think of it as the equivalent of two people describing a bowling ball. Person A says it's a ball used in bowling. Straight to the point. Person B uses a deeper, trickier description: "I get laid in an alley; I often end up in the middle of your split; When you slip your finger inside me, I am ready to roll." (thank you Dirty Minds Game) Both describe a bowling ball, but one is much quicker and straight to the point. One doesn't require you to think about it, and doesn't change meanings based on your minds orientation.

 

East/West requires use of the minimap to gather bearings, or use of Landmarks (Snow, Grass, Turrets, Spawnpoints, etc.) to gather bearings. If you already know which landmark is where, then you should already know which direction to head from that information alone. Why take extra processing time to try to associate West with Snow, and East with Grass? Just see the landmark, and go. You're potentially costing your team the game by acting needlessly slower or by making the directional system much more cumbersome than it has to be.

 

It's the equivalent of a Sith Assassin that can use Thrash any time he wants, but he makes a concerted effort to try to needlessly use Maul before it every time. It's a waste of time and energy (or force!).

[Sock_Bramson]

Where did your posts prove that grass/snow is "mechanically" better? You're saying it's better because they are easily visible landmarks. While it is very obvious to see when you either standing on a side or running into view of a given side, you don't always have this visual aid. As others who use grass/snow have said, they don't need to rely on actually seeing grass or snow because they know the map, which means they know how the map is oriented. It's only a matter of milliseconds, but their though process is "grass = thataway", where "thataway" = west. (i.e. grass/snow does work, as I have said, but is in no way more optimal when you can't see any landmarks)

 

I, on the other hand, do not hear a call for east and think "ah, east=snow, so I need to go to snow (which = thataway, which = east). I simply head east. East/west is not rooted in landmarks at all; it is rooted in an understanding in the map's orientation. Varicite was simply saying that he can apply landmarks to east/west as well IF NEED BE, i.e. only if he gets disoriented. If you find the mini-map cumbersome, that's fine. I find it incredibly easy to glance at and do so mainly to see the positions/health of my teammates/enemies; the orientation it provides is an added bonus.

 

Also, the bowling ball example isn't really doing you any favors. We're talking about 2 different directions on a map. Saying that "this ball is for bowling" is more akin to saying "this direction is east", while trying to describe a bowling ball by it's characteristics (it rolls on a lane, has finger holes, etc), is like describing a side of a map as "the side with snow on it." So, thanks for giving us a handy example of why east/west is actually not convoluted at all.

 

^This isn't to say that grass/snow is a bad system, it's just slightly less handy than east/west. You can still use it effectively, but you could use east/west a bit more effectively. Combined with the fact that east/west is used on novare and VS, there really isn't any reason to use grass/snow.

 

Now, I realize that all the insightful points in the world probably won't get anyone to switch systems when they're so ingrained at this point. I used to have a much more hard-line dislike of grass/snow, but I can deal with it now. (although I still think it sounds kinda silly) Conceptually, though, standardizing the use of east/west for all WZs would be ideal.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

Edited July 12, 2012 by Sock_Bramson

[Never_Hesitate]

Where did the idea come from that all the people will only use one term for the positions?

It will not happen your arguments just repeate themself.

Let this thread die, go play SWTOR and call it whatever you want. (even pewpew and qq if your team agrees )

[BlastingGravy]

If you're going to go that route, lets first realize what we're talking about first. We're talking about a game. NOTHING is "necessary". Winning, as a whole, isn't even necessary in SWTOR, lol, so lets try to keep things in perspective, please.

I'm fully aware that a warzone isn't as important as a NASA mission. If you wish to keep things in perspective, then please address the point of the analogy rather than attempting to insult my intelligence.

Read is all I can suggest. There are a lot more reasons within this thread than that. It's a burden typing it once hoping it will get across in the first place. It's a shame you'd have to ask for it to be repeated.

Again, you merely insult my intelligence instead of addressing the point. I have read the posts. The burden of proof lies upon you. If the reasons are as prevalent in this thread as you claim, then a simple copy and paste wouldn't be so hard. I find it interesting that you claim that I haven't read the posts, and yet I'm the one repeating myself to you in the following portions of this post.

I guess it all comes down to importance of implementation. It's a game. Taking the time to learn East/West when there are other, quicker options to learn/retain, seemingly has very little to no value in the eyes of players. What good will it do them to spend more time deciphering East/West, and less time improving their PvP play? They already have a Snow/Grass system in play, which is much easier to learn and much easier to implement overall; why break something that works well.

This argument is based on the assumption that people don't already know east from west. A majority of people know east and west before ever purchasing the game. Even if your assumption were true, don't you require them to learn it for Novare Coast anyway? How is learning two systems easier or faster than learning one? What about when new warzones come out, are you going to invent new systems for those as well?

Additionally, it's ironic that you mention the Metric system, because it's true -- people got used to using a different system, so the Metric system got tossed aside.

I really hope you're joking. The U.S. is pretty much the only modernized country in the world that does not use the metric system as its standard. A vast majority of the world had no problem switching. Even the U.S. uses the metric system for most important things, like science and engineering. Even TOR itself uses the metric system! So when you say "people," you actually mean "average Americans."

East/West requires use of the minimap to gather bearings, or use of Landmarks (Snow, Grass, Turrets, Spawnpoints, etc.) to gather bearings.

This is precisely why "east and west" is superior, you have two options. If you haven't memorized the map yet, you can use the minimap. If you have, you can use landmarks. "Grass and snow" has no option for when you haven't memorized the map.

Why take extra processing time to try to associate West with Snow, and East with Grass?

There is no processing time. I hear west, I go west. Why would the term "grass" ever enter my mind in any fashion? Yet again, you insult my intelligence by assuming that my brain doesn't function properly. By the way, you might want to get your own system straight. Grass is west and east is snow, not the other way around.

Just see the landmark, and go.

Once again we return to the obvious fact that you cannot see the landmarks from everywhere. Could you please stop avoiding this issue?

[Evangelist]

You say Grass or Snow you know EXACTLY where to go no matter what side you started from, you say East West that is going to change every match that you start on the other side. I would prefer knowing exactly where to go no matter where I start from and make it super easy.

 

Actually no it won't. If you treat the mini-map like most normal maps with "up" being north then left will always be West and right will always be East. So when you hear "East" you know to head towards the right hand side of your mini-map. CW is the only map where "up" is different dpending on the side you're on.

 

I don't have an issue with Grass and Snow at least not since they added same faction matches to CW. Reason being many people associated "East" with Snow and "West" with Grass (or vice vera if Imp) and when you get a same faction match that can often throw people off.

[Sock_Bramson]

Quoting myself to get this post on the new page. My arguments seem to either keep getting buried, or nobody has any rebuttals. Guess we'll see.

 

Oh, and a big-ol' bro-hoof, gravy, for another spot-on post.

 

Where did your posts prove that grass/snow is "mechanically" better? You're saying it's better because they are easily visible landmarks. While it is very obvious to see when you either standing on a side or running into view of a given side, you don't always have this visual aid. As others who use grass/snow have said, they don't need to rely on actually seeing grass or snow because they know the map, which means they know how the map is oriented. It's only a matter of milliseconds, but their though process is "grass = thataway", where "thataway" = west. (i.e. grass/snow does work, as I have said, but is in no way more optimal when you can't see any landmarks)

 

I, on the other hand, do not hear a call for east and think "ah, east=snow, so I need to go to snow (which = thataway, which = east). I simply head east. East/west is not rooted in landmarks at all; it is rooted in an understanding in the map's orientation. Varicite was simply saying that he can apply landmarks to east/west as well IF NEED BE, i.e. only if he gets disoriented. If you find the mini-map cumbersome, that's fine. I find it incredibly easy to glance at and do so mainly to see the positions/health of my teammates/enemies; the orientation it provides is an added bonus.

 

Also, the bowling ball example isn't really doing you any favors. We're talking about 2 different directions on a map. Saying that "this ball is for bowling" is more akin to saying "this direction is east", while trying to describe a bowling ball by it's characteristics (it rolls on a lane, has finger holes, etc), is like describing a side of a map as "the side with snow on it." So, thanks for giving us a handy example of why east/west is actually not convoluted at all.

 

^This isn't to say that grass/snow is a bad system, it's just slightly less handy than east/west. You can still use it effectively, but you could use east/west a bit more effectively. Combined with the fact that east/west is used on novare and VS, there really isn't any reason to use grass/snow.

 

Now, I realize that all the insightful points in the world probably won't get anyone to switch systems when they're so ingrained at this point. I used to have a much more hard-line dislike of grass/snow, but I can deal with it now. (although I still think it sounds kinda silly) Conceptually, though, standardizing the use of east/west for all WZs would be ideal.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[Never_Hesitate]

Quoting myself to get this post on the new page. My arguments seem to either keep getting buried, or nobody has any rebuttals. Guess we'll see.

 

Oh, and a big-ol' bro-hoof, gravy, for another spot-on post.

 

You failed with getting on a new page.

[Sock_Bramson]

Erm, nope, succeeded as planned. Original post popped up on page 59, then got buried by more posts. Now it's on page 60, i.e. the newest page.

[Never_Hesitate]

Erm, nope, succeeded as planned. Original post popped up on page 59, then got buried by more posts. Now it's on page 60, i.e. the newest page.

 

Aha I thought you wanted to get on page 61, sry

[Sock_Bramson]

Hehe, never doubt my attention-whoring prowess. (inc "east/west is for whores" posts)

[Never_Hesitate]

Hehe, never doubt my attention-whoring prowess. (inc "east/west is for whores" posts)

 

Do you think this thread will ever end?

[Darth_Philar]

Do you think this thread will ever end?

 

If BW takes the time to color code nodes making them ridiculously easy to distinguish, then yes, the thread will end.

 

If they don't color code the nodes then we will always have the debate between ease of use and accuracy.