Can we, as a community, eliminate the "Grass" and "Snow" in Alderaan?

[coldserpent]

I'll still use Grass/Mid/Snow for calling out orders/incomings for Civil War. I like using the landscape to call things out. Sure, I can use the minimap to call out incomings/orders, but Grass/Mid/Snow still works for me.

[Lord_Karsk]

Do like me, someone says snow/grass under attack i will go the other way.Leave you to die alone.

[Esiqual]

The orientation of west and east is confusing because the minimap changes orientation depending on where your character is facing at the time. This means that my east when i am facing you is not the same as your east. If the map didnt change orientation or had a true magnetic north point then i would agree that using east/west terminology would be more accurate in a warzone setting.

[Vaipyr]

because the minimap changes orientation

 

****....

 

The minimap doesn't bloody change anything. When you start the match the minimap is oriented. Up = north for you and your team. Period. It doesn't spin around. It doesn't do cartwheels, it doesn't move side to side, it doesn't do the bloody dinosaur and get on the floor.

[amnie]

The control points are visually distinct and require less brain-power to comprehend. Have you tried explaining to a PUG East vs. West on Voidstar? Even though the game tells you "East Door has been armed"?

 

As for the windows...???

 

if someone in my team doesn't understand east and west I know the match is lost already (unless we're lucky enough and the opposing team is even worse)

[Metalmac]

I have a few questions for those of you who use "grass" and "snow."

 

If you are at the middle point, and you can't see the side points, how do you know which direction "grass" and "snow" are?

 

What do you call the points on Novare Coast?

 

Again Left door or Right door or Far.

 

This works for either side of map. Left / Right / Far or Mid. So again it works best on any War Zone map.

[Metalmac]

if someone in my team doesn't understand east and west I know the match is lost already (unless we're lucky enough and the opposing team is even worse)

 

Using the Minimap Left (West) or Right (East) or Mid works all the time on any War Zone map. Standard set.

[olagaton]

There is snow in this warzone? I play it for over half a year and I never consciously noticed that one side has grass and one has snow. If I wouldn't have found this thread by chance and someone would have told me tomorrow to go to snow side, I would have thought, wth is this guy talking about. I have to have a proper look tomorrow. Unbelievable.

So you willingly admit that you are unobservant?

[olagaton]

People strongly advocating east/west are probably the type of stubborn players who lose a warzone because they refuse to adapt to the simplicity of snow/grass and feel that everyone else on their team caused them to fail because they wouldnt acknowledge east/west lol

[Never_Hesitate]

Just to repeate it:

 

It doesen't matter how much you discuss here, you will not be able to eliminate "Snow" and "Grass".

Go spend your energy on pvping

 

If anyone in your team doesn't know where snow and where grass is just explain it to them, they will know from that time on.

[Varicite]

So you willingly admit that you are unobservant?

 

I'll willingly admit that the grass and snow on the ground are absolutely mechanically unimportant to anything in the Alderaan Warzone, especially if you know your cardinal directions.

 

Are you one of those people that thinks a car goes faster because it has a pretty paint job?

[olagaton]

I'll willingly admit that the grass and snow on the ground are absolutely mechanically unimportant to anything in the Alderaan Warzone, especially if you know your cardinal directions.

Why should someone know their cardinal directions when that knowledge is irrelevant, and the implementation of them as the primary way to distinguish direction is more cumbersome than other methods, specifically in SWTOR?

 

Are you one of those people that thinks a car goes faster because it has a pretty paint job?[/color]

It sounds as though that's your way of thinking.

 

Players that advocate using the minimap for directions remind me of the tourists at Disneyland who clog up the walkways and miss all the fun/excitement because they keep having to look down at their tour guide brochure to find out which direction they need to go; instead of just looking up at the attractions and enjoying their surroundings/events/shows while still being able to navigate where they need to go using landmarks.

Edited July 9, 2012 by olagaton

[Varicite]

Why should someone know their cardinal directions when that knowledge is irrelevant, and the implementation of them as the primary way to distinguish direction is more cumbersome than other methods, specifically in SWTOR?

 

 

It sounds as though that's your way of thinking.

 

It's only more cumbersome if you don't actually already know your cardinal directions, but most of us have had them ingrained for quite some time.

 

In that case, whether or not pretty flowers are growing next to a node becomes pretty irrelevant.

 

PS) It sounds as though you had no actual rebuttal, so you have reverted to the ever-popular "NO U". Classy.

 

Your Disneyworld analogy doesn't really work, because you don't have to "look down" at anything; the mini-map is very clearly displayed in your line of vision at all times, with important features laid out and an ARROW indicating exactly which direction you are heading.

 

Most of us don't need to look at the mini-map to determine which way is East or West in a WZ as linear as Civil War, anyway. There's literally only 2 directions to go.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Varicite

[Degalian]

The problem is that if you're guarding mid, you have no idea which side has grass and which side has snow (because of the walls enclosing the area) without picking a random direction and running that way until you can see over the wall.

 

By guarding Mid I assume your team has mid, correct?

Well in 99% of my games we had either Mid and one side or both sides, but rarley all 3.

 

Now if someone calls for help when you are guarding mid, that is probably in the scenario where your team has mid and one side.

 

If you really need any kind of direction in that case, here is a hint, Press M, go to the green tower on the side. No matter what they call out.

 

And for all the grass/snow haters, when on the ship take a look out of the window, voilà you know where to go, no thinking required. If you have both sides and are standing at one side with someone calling for help, chances are you are either already at the right place, or you must go to the other side (because yours is quiet) or you're an idiot because you are somewhere else.

 

Therefore the east/west snow/grass issue is really only an issue for people who are not at the spawnpoint and don't know how to play the game because they are in some location where they are useless.

For those at the spawnpoint snow/grass is clearly superior once you figured out how to use your eyes.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Degalian
(sp)

[BlastingGravy]

"Grass and snow" and "east and west" are equally effective, but only if you've memorized the map. So the only difference in terms of practicality is that "east and west" are easier to learn for new players. Even someone who has never played a video game in their life knows east from west. It is also easier to learn because it is universal to all warzones. Even the "grass and snow" advocates admit to using "east and west" on Novare Coast.

 

Since this is the only difference in practicality, why go with the one that is unfriendly to new players?

 

Cue PvP elitist snob responses.

[Sinemetu]

The orientation of west and east is confusing because the minimap changes orientation depending on where your character is facing at the time. This means that my east when i am facing you is not the same as your east. If the map didnt change orientation or had a true magnetic north point then i would agree that using east/west terminology would be more accurate in a warzone setting.

 

East and west never change. Left and right do, but not east and west.

[bangkokbetty]

 

Cue PvP elitist snob responses.

 

Oh the irony of the east/west cult accusing others of elitism and snobbery! They continue to hammer the mistaken belief that the preference to Snow/Grass is based on an inability to read a compass as if they were intellectually superior while continuing to ignore the point that has been stated many times that Snow/Grass familiarity eliminates any need to read a map.

 

A weekend of pvping on Harbinger (Imp) and Fatman (Pubs) and not one mention of east/west. Sure its anecdotal, I'll concede that, but even one of the primary advocates of east/west has stated that once he left his origin rp-pvp server of 10 people that he encountered Grass/Snow with regularity.

Edited July 9, 2012 by bangkokbetty

[BlastingGravy]

Oh the irony of the east/west cult accusing others of elitism and snobbery! They continue to hammer the mistaken belief that the preference to Snow/Grass is based on an inability to read a compass as if they were intellectually superior...

This is a straw man, ad hoc argument, and thus has no relevance here.

...while continuing to ignore the point that has been stated many times that Snow/Grass familiarity eliminates any need to read a map.

Are you saying that memorizing the map is better than reading one?

A weekend of pvping on Harbinger (Imp) and Fatman (Pubs) and not one mention of east/west. Sure its anecdotal, I'll concede that, but even one of the primary advocates of east/west has stated that once he left his origin rp-pvp server of 10 people that he encountered Grass/Snow with regularity.

I play on the Harbinger, and it seems about 50/50 to me. If there was an overwhelming majority, I wouldn't bother making this argument.

[Foenixz]

WOW this thread is still going? East/West or Snow/Grass as long as someone knows which way to go it really doesn't matter. I will use snow and grass simply because I can get turned about sometimes and the visual cues are easier to use for me.

 

'nuff said

 

so let's do that let each person pick

Edited July 9, 2012 by Foenixz

[Sock_Bramson]

Wow, this thread is still alive? Guess I'll join on in again.

 

It's ironic that people on both sides are accusing each other of elitism. I like east/west, but that doesn't mean I somehow feel intellectually superior to those that use grass/snow. However, I do think that people who can't understand cardinal directions are a bit dumb. Fortunately, competent players who use grass/snow understand east/west because they use it on the other maps, which I think is the crux of this whole argument.

 

As others have continually pointed out: why use a different system for one map if you use the other system for the other wzs? So far, the only real counter-argument I've heard is "I'm used to it, so I use it," which doesn't really counter the argument at all. (especially when some people make the illogical jump to "I'm used to it, so it must be better")

 

All of the actual attempts at proving that grass/snow is objectively better in this thread (few as they are) really don't work either.

Grass/snow is somehow more useful now that the sides can flip? Nope, grass/snow flips, but east/west stays constant. (left/right flips, but that's a dumb system for everything besides calling for passes in huttball w/ a mic)

Grass/snow is more helpful visually? Naw, mini-map is just as easily visible, more so since you don't have to actually see snow or grass. (plus it shows teammate/enemy locations and their hp, i.e. it's more useful than staring at your feet)

 

And funnily enough, two different arguments:

Grass/snow is more friendly to new players. (not really: most know cardinal directions before they learn a new map)

Or...

Grass/snow is better once you know the map. (i.e. people have argued that it is NOT a system for newer players)

^People who use this argument have yet to counter my point that if you are familiar enough with a given map to intuitively know how it's laid out, you understand how it is oriented in terms of the cardinal directions. (i.e. east/west and grass/snow will make sense to you [at least they do to me]) Hell, people who know the maps that well are usually already on their way to the next hot-spot before the call even comes.

 

Basically, east/west and grass/snow are both viable systems, and anyone who is a competent pvper understands both. However, east/west is more universally helpful in CW itself and the other WZs (obviously), so why not streamline things and use the same system for all maps? This would help cut out any confusion for newer players and get them up to speed a bit faster. There will always be some people who will do poorly no matter what you call, unfortunately, but we'll just try to ignore them as best we can.

 

I guess the biggest questions I still have are: If you use east/west for the other maps, you still understand it for CW, right? Is there a real reason that you use grass/snow besides the fact that you're used to it? Do you think you wouldn't be able to switch to east/west for any particular reason?

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[Darth_Philar]

Grass and Snow works.

East and West works.

 

Let's focus on eliminating Left and Right.

[Daiyukie]

East and west never change. Left and right do, but not east and west.

 

No, they don't. When people call left or right, they don't mean "go to the left of where you're currently looking" they mean "go to the turret on the left side of the map". Considering you're always orientated from spawn, you simply have to envision looking out from spawn and you know which direction. You should also know which is your enemy's spawn if you're guarding mid and if you're guarding one of the sides, you should know which side you're on. So it's either "go to opposite turret from where I am now" or "go to the left turret of where I am because I am looking at enemy spawn".

 

If you're looking at your own spawn while guarding, you're doing it wrong and you fully deserve to run to the left side turret when someone calls right because you've got your rump facing the play.

[Sock_Bramson]

It doesn't matter if you understand left/right, it's not a good system to use, period. East/west eliminates any and all confusion. Hell, I've seen the people actually calling left/right mess up the perspective. (i.e. they're facing our spawn and basing left/right on that)

 

The only time you should ever use left/right is in huttball when you're paying attention to the ball-carrier's orientation.

 

-Hedley Melange <Physics>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[BlastingGravy]

When people call left or right, they don't mean "go to the left of where you're currently looking" they mean "go to the turret on the left side of the map".

 

This is false. People call left and right based on spawn orientation all the time, most often in Voidstar. People will even switch the orientation of left and right in Voidstar based on whether they are attacking or defending. I may not like grass and snow, but at least its meaning has consensus.

[Khanic]

Grass and snow seem to work better then anything else, at least in my games. Hell people don't listen half the time anyways so might as well try to direct. Granted Grass/Snow and EAST/WEST both work, its when someone goes left or right that screws everyone up.