Why TOR fails to get the No.1

[The_Muh]

For me personally its not so important if TOR is getting the reference on the market, simply because its not my firm nor my money. But on the other hand i´m a old school player since the days of D&D Tabletop and playing is my passion. The market especially in PC-Gaming changed several times considerable, and the question important for me is .. where are we going ?

Bioware gave an very good idea of what rpg can be, they evolved games that will be forever among the best games. So the next steep seems to be the big one ... to conquer WoW ....

For me the masterplan sounds like "Mix of bioware stoytelling with WoW´s MMO´s Features and we get it..". so why it fails ...

 

(1) The elementary point for me is that Blizzard (Especially WoW) never had an real answer why we are playing games. What is the sense for humans behavior to play thousands of hours just for an savegame?

They evolved standards in things like progaming, casual gaming and producing highprofitable games, but in one point they really failed.

Gaming is part of humans progression, we learn many things from good games. Not only to have a better reaction, much more, games are an important part of an proper mental processing. We play to train and learn social, intellectual or physical things. Blizzard only took adavantage of humans weaknesses to overreach the market with playpatterns like addiction for items with better stats or giving the intelectual handicapped mass the feeling of beeing an important part with vital characters and skills.

With is this a failure?

Because a lot are only driven to play, they don´t play cause they really want to nor they are real good gamers, they play because they only feel good while doing so. And that is totally the wrong way games should evolve. We dont need firms who are saying to us what is good or bad just because they have an efficient method of psychological market control.

One of the problems that came out of this is the overall seen phenomenon of Forum-Whiners. A lot are critizising before even thinking about it, just like an drug-victim loosing control cause the game does not do so like the user expected it.

 

My first advice .. Ignore the whiners totally! It is a real a bad idea to hear to an communtiy if it consists of "gamers" who thinks everything must be like WoW and are totally ignorant to thousands of other games who are partially much better.

My second opinion ... Ignore to delevop profit-oriented games. The best games are all games invented by people with an real passion or idea not of those who wants to make only the big money.

 

 

(2) EndGame Content:

I´m really wondering why the EndGame Outfits are so bad designed in comparison to the rest. If you copy the Blizzard driven gamepattern of "You MUSt have the endgame SET .. than it shoud lbe the best designed clothes in the game ... not just really weeird clothes ...

 

(3) Destroying the market:

Totally bad was the idea of putting things on market that destroyed the value of the hard earned things so far. A lot of players quitted because they feeled cheated of "working" hard for their equipment just to get it worthless with the next patch. I think this point has cost the most players so far and the ones who decided this at Bioware or EA should take the consequences about this desaster.

So my last opion .. never NEVER make inflationally changes on the market. When someone earns something valuable it should be nearly valuable in 2 years ... add new things and make them much harder to get .. thats ok .. but never reduce the value of the existing.

If some whines like "its to hard to get this" .. see my advice on point (1) and give them cheese ...

 

My 5cents!

Edited June 20, 2012 by The_Muh

[thomasmeadows]

all valid points, which will all probably all fall on deaf ears.

[Baphomet_x]

o.o

 

1. they should make a crafts system for more powerfull equip that they release,where you must destroy the previous endgame stuff to be able to make it

 

2.they need to improve the rather thin character customization system in char creation

[Bomyne]

Bioware gave an very good idea of what rpg can be, they evolved games that will be forever among the best games. So the next steep seems to be the big one ... to conquer WoW ....

 

Any MMO that tries to "Conquer WoW" is doomed to die a swift death, in my opinion. MMO companies need to stop trying to beat WoW and simply make their own MMO the best it can be.

[Baphomet_x]

the one achille`s heel that WoW has,the time period it takes place in,if people ever get tired of it,it will have problems

[Laris_Rai]

The only game that can sink WoW is Wow. They're going to have to pretty much screw WoW up enough that a lot of people drop it for it to stop being #1. I don't see that happening.

 

And BW would be dumb to pour their energy into that anyway. There's plenty of money to be made being the #2 game in the world. Besides, the only people who *really* care about "taking down WoW" and fan zealots who link their personal sense of self worth to the popularity of what they like. That's a silly way to think and we're all better off ignoring such people.

[Senatsu]

I don't think the end game sets are that horrible, to be fair (don't get me wrong, I think 90% of them look as ugly as all hell). I feel it's more of an acquaintance issue, where the designers just haven't fallen into their groove yet where the sets appeal to the players, patch, raid, and expansion. I wouldn't think too much of it yet, but if they haven't nailed in down within 6-7 months then it would be time to panic.

 

Overall the game is fantastic as an RPG, and now they are beginning to accommodate more for the MMO portion. When the group finder launches and server transfers fully opens up, then people will start to settle down, join guilds and do more content. Up until now the majority of the content has been the character leveling, playing through different stories and making your character into a persona in the game story, but now BW is finally aiding to introduce players to the expanding of your character and giving the players more fun stuff to do.

[amnie]

my No. 1 MMO is still FFXI so I don't care if TOR 'conquers' WoW. WoW is not what I want in a game.

[oakamp]

my No. 1 MMO is still FFXI so I don't care if TOR 'conquers' WoW. WoW is not what I want in a game.

 

who cares about wow,

i only play swtor and eq2 MMO,

and only pay for BW.

i dont even want to play skyrim,

who birds about wow or diablo.

[juleanden]

edit: wow got cencured Edited June 20, 2012 by juleanden

[MajikMyst]

I think the real answer here isn't the game at all..

 

I think the gaming community in general haven't been exactly fair to this game.. It has always been compared to WOW.. Which is fine.. But people compare it to WOW today.. Release + 3 expansions and of course 8 years or so..

 

Which isn't fair.. Not many folks remember WOW at release.. Not nearly as good as this one..

 

The other issue is that the community was all about the hype of this would be the wow killer.. I don't recall anyone from Bioware every saying that.. Not to mention, until now, no other MMO was any threat to WOW.. Rift did nothing.. Guildwars hasn't been much of a threat.. Does anyone play Skyrim at all??

 

SWTOR is still the only one ruffling the feathers over at WOW.. Some people aren't to fond of change.. Not to mention there are probably some loyalty issues.. For whatever reason.. There is bound to be some peeps that don't want to see this game succeed..

 

No,, This game is not perferct.. But no game is.. It has it's issues.. Like every other game does.. None of that makes this a bad game..

 

I just hope people would start giving game a fair shake in their assessments.. This is an awsome game.. The story element is great.. I can understand if some people don't like the story.. But Bioware talked about little else before launch.. So if people complain about story.. They only have themselves to blame..

 

This game is also new.. There are still a lot of changes to be made.. How much do you think WOW has changed over it's 8 years and expansions?? How about giving this game a chance to make some changes.. We all gave WOW that chance.. WOW didn't start out with over a million players.. It got there over time..

 

This game will too..

Edited June 20, 2012 by MajikMyst

[fptackle]

The only game that can sink WoW is Wow. They're going to have to pretty much screw WoW up enough that a lot of people drop it for it to stop being #1. I don't see that happening.

 

Pandas and Pokemon combat. Just saying...

 

With any MMO, the social aspect has to be strong. The games that seem to have the most longevity are the games that are the most group-centric, because players build relationships with other players and treat it as a social outlet.

 

Few people will choose sitting on the couch playing a video game or watching TV or whatever above spending time with friends whom they enjoy being around. By turning that video game into "time with friends", It keeps players engaged. Even when their own character starts exhausting content, there is always a friend that needs help. When you don't feel like actually playing, you still log in just to chat. When you feel bored and might have otherwise quit, you hang on a little longer because "your friends need you". Making it a social outlet, rather than simply a video game, is why players played Everquest and WoW for years upon years, while other games died after the first couple of months.

 

A new MMO shouldn't be trying to compete with WoW; it should be trying to compete with Facebook, making people want to sit mindlessly in front of the computer without having to provide them with any tangible content or entertainment beyond what they create for themselves in dealing with their friends.

 

No MMO has ever created content at a rate faster than their players could devour it. If you make a game with the idea that players will play up to the end, they will and then they will leave, having successfully "beat the game". If you make a social platform that encourages players to get together and play simple for the sake of being together, you have a longevity game.

[NRN_Hawk]

/sign to most of it if not all

 

I still remember games like XvT, Xwing Alliance or the Jedi Knight series, where you could just get a max ingame rank if you'd get something at all. Still there we're many people playing it for a long time because there was a thing called battlestats.org which gave the opportunity to actually set up tournaments and official clan vs. clan events (e. g. the Week of War event) which kept the fun for ages.

 

So actually you don't need levels or "endgame". Why increasing level cap with a patch if you'd just need new skills to obtain with an ongoing class story and just new gear (pvp or pve) with gaining valor and social points or something like that's already there?

 

The reason why most MMOs fail IMO is that they try to make you "waste time". If you know what I mean.

 

For me personally its not so important if TOR is getting the reference on the market, simply because its not my firm nor my money. But on the other hand i´m a old school player since the days of D&D Tabletop and playing is my passion. The market especially in PC-Gaming changed several times considerable, and the question important for me is .. where are we going ?

Bioware gave an very good idea of what rpg can be, they evolved games that will be forever among the best games. So the next steep seems to be the big one ... to conquer WoW ....

For me the masterplan sounds like "Mix of bioware stoytelling with WoW´s MMO´s Features and we get it..". so why it fails ...

 

(1) The elementary point for me is that Blizzard (Especially WoW) never had an real answer why we are playing games. What is the sense for humans behavior to play thousands of hours just for an savegame?

They evolved standards in things like progaming, casual gaming and producing highprofitable games, but in one point they really failed.

Gaming is part of humans progression, we learn many things from good games. Not only to have a better reaction, much more, games are an important part of an proper mental processing. We play to train and learn social, intellectual or physical things. Blizzard only took adavantage of humans weaknesses to overreach the market with playpatterns like addiction for items with better stats or giving the intelectual handicapped mass the feeling of beeing an important part with vital characters and skills.

With is this a failure?

Because a lot are only driven to play, they don´t play cause they really want to nor they are real good gamers, they play because they only feel good while doing so. And that is totally the wrong way games should evolve. We dont need firms who are saying to us what is good or bad just because they have an efficient method of psychological market control.

One of the problems that came out of this is the overall seen phenomenon of Forum-Whiners. A lot are critizising before even thinking about it, just like an drug-victim loosing control cause the game does not do so like the user expected it.

 

My first advice .. Ignore the whiners totally! It is a real a bad idea to hear to an communtiy if it consists of "gamers" who thinks everything must be like WoW and are totally ignorant to thousands of other games who are partially much better.

My second opinion ... Ignore to delevop profit-oriented games. The best games are all games invented by people with an real passion or idea not of those who wants to make only the big money.

 

 

(2) EndGame Content:

I´m really wondering why the EndGame Outfits are so bad designed in comparison to the rest. If you copy the Blizzard driven gamepattern of "You MUSt have the endgame SET .. than it shoud lbe the best designed clothes in the game ... not just really weeird clothes ...

 

(3) Destroying the market:

Totally bad was the idea of putting things on market that destroyed the value of the hard earned things so far. A lot of players quitted because they feeled cheated of "working" hard for their equipment just to get it worthless with the next patch. I think this point has cost the most players so far and the ones who decided this at Bioware or EA should take the consequences about this desaster.

So my last opion .. never NEVER make inflationally changes on the market. When someone earns something valuable it should be nearly valuable in 2 years ... add new things and make them much harder to get .. thats ok .. but never reduce the value of the existing.

If some whines like "its to hard to get this" .. see my advice on point (1) and give them cheese ...

 

My 5cents!

Edited June 20, 2012 by NRN_Hawk
typos

[Denyus]

Hell it's funny the people who are comparing TOR with WoW didn't play it when it first released.

 

Endgame armorsets looks freaking horrible thank god for 1.3 just that you need to farm social points like mad to get what you want and the crafted orange gear is also very limited. You guys really need to sit down and ask yourself is it Starwars we are designing for or some odd mix of DoD with Blasters and Lightsabers becuse that's what it looks like atm. Oh and please reduce the amount of credits to remove mods etc from Rakata and above 44k to remove one mod is to much.

 

Graphic is **** serioulsy and horrible shadow effects even with settings on highest it looks dull not to mention when you zoom out on your character the so called high textures they added in 1.2 fades out and readjusts after 1-1/2 second after you zoom back in. Lightsabers should have way more pixels if you ask me not a fan of the jedi/sith classes but some hilts just makes the sticks look awfull. Yes i whine alot obout the graphic becuse it's 2012 and i honestly expected more smooth worlds fog effects, rain etc to make it more alive not as sharp as it is now boring to look at.

 

All planets are linear and limited for exploration and doesn't allow much world PvP unless you wanna spend 20 minutes traveling with your bike and cross fingers that you find someone as you arrive to enemy territory.

 

Sound is awesome - when it's working hopefully they fix the cutting out in 1.3.

 

Cutscenes are allright some better and some less but still they are good and 1.3 have some tweaks in them as well.

 

Ops are okay for now still havn't finished Denova HM stuck on the tanks wiping on 5-10% so it's just a matter of time really and i am looking forward to the new stuffs later on.

 

Wishlist after 1.3 is released:

 

Time to go trough the talents on all classes give us more room to play with our points, atm there are 2-3 valid builds for each class in both PvP & PvE and you basicly exchange 3-5 points in one tree and you have a PvP build insteed. Also it might be time to adjust the amount of abilitys that some classes have talking about Consular & Scoundrel primary from experience they just have so many abilitys for both PvP & PvE so that you can't have all in the actionbars at once more with a decent hotkey for each ability. I have big hands and a G19 and i still can't macro/bind all abilitys i want to if i wanna do both PvP & PvE without having to exchange and remove abilitys in the actionbars to have room for em all.

 

Also Scoundrel PvE dps is quite shocking, you gain alot of burstdamage or DoT's but no substainal damage output like other classes, wouldn't expect 2 equal geared smugglers slinger/scoundrel would do the same amount of damage but Scoundrel itself could use some love the penetly of being behind to backblast, shoot first once a minute just doesn't seem fair to turret commandos who also have 2 roles but dish out 250% more damage.

 

Apologizes in advance for my not so awesome English skills.

 

Vince

[NasherUK]

The only game that can sink WoW is Wow. They're going to have to pretty much screw WoW up enough that a lot of people drop it for it to stop being #1. I don't see that happening.

 

But they screwed it up a long time ago. Wow has been declining since mid way through wotlk, they lost a LOT since the start of cataclysm and no new players are joining. The quality of new content in wow also took a noticable dive when it's experienced developers moved to other projects. The last nail in the coffin will be the kung-fu panda addon, which people throught was a joke when it was announced.

 

Making a game like wow is doomed to fail, because people are leaving wow in bus loads to find something new and better.

Edited June 20, 2012 by NasherUK

[macumba]

I also think it's clear that this game was made a lot by putting things together that supposedly "sell well"

if you want to beat wow you won't succeed by copying it, you need to offer fresh and new ideas of your own.

 

what we see now is:

 

raiding = not new

daily quests = not new

battleground pvp = not new

 

space combat = new but too little

companions (I think they are a great addition and work very well, but they are not relevant in endgame)

 

things that used to work well that wow did not copy like housing and sandbox elements that add flavor to the game would also help the game in getting more customers.

 

aiming at wow's customer base is hurting the game right now, because people who leave wow leave that game for a reason and finding the same reasons here will make them leave here again.

 

the open pvp failure is also a huge problem. a lot pf people had expectations in the ex-mythic team. expectations like them coming up with something brilliant like they did with daoc. Allowing killtrading on Ilum was one of the biggest mistakes aside from simply not delivering something remotely as brilliant as daoc pvp was.

 

factions need identity. the war between empire and republic should be lived in pvp. the player should want his team to succeed against the other, thus identifying with his faction (this is what roleplaying is about, you identify with the character you created and roleplay and anyone who thinks that roleplaying does not belong in an mmorpg should rethink if he's playing the right game.

with roleplaying I don't mean that kind of roleplaying you see on rp-servers everyone of us should be a roleplayer on a certain scale. so even when you apply the rule that everythin that's red needs to be dead (killing every player you see of the opposing faction) that's in fact roleplay.

 

listening to (the right) player

 

simple said. too much metrics too few player interaction. also overprotecting the casual player from their own failure's is not contributing to creating an interesting game.

 

also listening to the player turned out to be an empty phrase thats just that. its been only blabla in the past with no meaning (just a marketing phrase)

 

yes I know I am no game creator and maybe I (like many others should) shut up but one thing bioware maybe should have copied was getting someone from the player base to work with them similar to jeffrey kaplan, then maybe they would not have designed a game that they think works (which it did not as well as they thought) but one that actually delivers.

 

really it would be terribly easy to fix swtor its just all too obvious.

[Ellenor]

I played WoW from vanilla and enjoyed it. I hit level 60 and occupied myself with raiding till Burning Crusade came out. I was half way through WotLK when we moved house and there was no internet. 2 years later we moved again and I picked up from where I left off but I found that I basically couldn't be arsed with it anymore. I'd simply lost the fun aspect of it.

So I set off in search of another MMO to play from DDO, WO, LotRO and even back to EQ. Finally I signed up for Rift and really enjoyed it. There were plenty of doomsayers on the forums and comparisions to WoW but the game is still going strong with about 1 million players, (I could be out there though.) I now play SW and am enjoying it faults and all, however I'll no doubt stop playing when it's no longer fun for me.

 

Non of us know where this game will be in a years time but I'm willing to keep paying till the fun stops.

[metalgearyoda]

(2) EndGame Content:

I´m really wondering why the EndGame Outfits are so bad designed in comparison to the rest. If you copy the Blizzard driven gamepattern of "You MUSt have the endgame SET .. than it shoud lbe the best designed clothes in the game ... not just really weeird clothes ...

 

 

My 5cents!

 

Just so everyone here knows... You don't have to wear endgame sets. In fact, its subpar statwise at the moment to.

 

Right now, wearing a level 19 augmented moddables will result in better gear than t2 because you strip the t2 of its mods and set bonus and place them in the level 19 gear and then put in an epic augment.

 

So... Complaining about end game gear is very pointless. Since you aren't suppose to use it.

Edited June 20, 2012 by metalgearyoda

[Diktat]

I also think it's clear that this game was made a lot by putting things together that supposedly "sell well"

if you want to beat wow you won't succeed by copying it, you need to offer fresh and new ideas of your own.

 

what we see now is:

 

raiding = not new

daily quests = not new

battleground pvp = not new

 

space combat = new but too little

companions (I think they are a great addition and work very well, but they are not relevant in endgame)

Space WHAT?!

Please be serious, it is an arcade, nothing more.

And companions certainly are not new. Guild Wars had them from start: henches, upgraded to Heroes in an expansion and the final addition was Mercenaries which is use your own alts as companions.

[jgelling]

SWTOR fails to "get the No.1" because it doesn't change human nature and how the game industry operates, has bad fashion design, and has MMO inflation?

 

Now, I'll grant you the overall bad fashion design, but the rest.. Really?

Edited June 20, 2012 by jgelling

[ippollite]

i just watched a few swifty v mercader fights for pandacraft the other day. Its pretty easy to see that wows combat, no matter whether it was a lucky piece of code or an act of genius, is still super fast, super responsive, super awesome. Since swtor i havent even looked at the game because it bores me to tears after what, nearly 8 years now 0_o??? But my god, when you see people who are genuinely awesome at their class capable of countering you at the speed youd counter in street fighter, then theres a part of that game that will be pretty much eternally amazing. Its pretty easy to fault the raids, the questing, and lmost everything else, but the pvp still looks freaking amazing (when you watch people who can play do it. Mercader is just a joy to watch, it reminds me of watching happyminti back in the day destroying BRS). Edited June 20, 2012 by ippollite

[Suromir]

well you're wrong at least about one thing. it's called progression. there must always be something to strive for. You'll lose more people (even a lot of those that say they hate raid stuff being out-done by expansions/patches) if you don't set the bar higher....most aren't going to raid for that new piece of shiny gear if it's no better than what they have..they MAY do the new stuff once or twice..but that's it. MORE WILL LEAVE.

 

progression is a way of the MMO...they release something..with a set "end-game" set to strive for....later on with an expansion or large content patch it's out-dated and you now (if you want the good-stuff) need to work for it.

 

if they eliminate that and have what you get in OPs now just as good (or even remotely close) as something released 5 years from now....well there won't be many players around to work for it.

 

the problem is how easy stuff is to get and the minimal ways of getting it. I miss the "good ol" days of EQ..sure I HATED WITH A PASSION camping week-spawn rare mobs that were highly contested..but when you got that item you needed to get your piece (I love you still Water Sprinkler of Nem'Ankh) you felt a sense of accomplishment.

 

that's GONE in MMO's post WoW.

 

tl'dr - no you're wrong about something valuable now needing to be valuable in 2 years..if it is..then there's no point to it all.

 

That said...the problems with this game are many

 

1 - insulting and downright amateurish bugs that are STILL not fixed (i.e. the touted "fully voiced" mmo that has sound cutting out during class quests so you don't hear a damn thing, or only half of it..STILL NOT FIXED) there's many MANY more

 

2 - Too Linear a path; for a game promoting alts with the legacy system (see point 3) they offer far too linear a path..class stories are different sure...but the BULK of what you're having to do is the same damn straight line you've done...how many times??

 

3 - Poorly thought out Legacy System; good in THEORY...crap implementation....Items that cost far too much that will only be useful for a couple levels....items like the custom orange armors that REQUIRE you to make an alt OF THE SAME CLASS (and in the case of the JK not even a different AC) but then they limit your character slots so badly per server.....most, if not all, of the legacy unlocks are about worthless...the only good being the multiple class buffs. There's much more wrong with it but that'll suffice.

 

4 - Shortcuts - no day/night cycles..that crap floats in a single player RPG..but not in an MMO..you have to feel IMMERSED in an online world...and static worlds are just stupid. ti's pure laziness. Canned responses in dialogue...way over-used alien gibberish on some NPCs where it makes no sense...etc.

 

this post is long enough but I'll stop there...there's several more points as to why this game hasn't even come close to competing with WoW (and yes they DID state they were aiming to take WoW down during the development interviews...and no I'm not digging it up)

 

it boils down to laziness unfortunately...and too many cut corners.

[Kyllum]

SWTOR fails on many things...

 

PVE is a complete joke in this game... COMPLETE JOKE 1, it was buggy as hell and 2 when it wasnt buggy the pve was insanely easy... talking about clearing all content nightmare in a very short time and then what are we left with?

 

Crafting system sucks the pvp system sucks and imbalanced with pyros 3 shotting people and marauders that have more tank abilities then tanks, a crap legacy system that id trade for a complete game...

 

this game just fails on basically everything and they tried copying wow in the style and failed in that, if i wanted to play wow id play wow but wow blows...

 

GW2 here i come

[NRN_Hawk]

Marauders are so tanky that I solo them.

 

I think the PVE is quite funny, I'm no hardcore raider (operator! xD) tho, from what you see in forums like this, every PVE content is either qq too easy or qq too hard

a lot of classes need fixing tho > reroll prior 1.2 when swtor was still balanced because it's not

Only thing that gets annoying sometimes is the grinding.

 

still I already got more SWTOR hours of gaming than I ever had in World of Boredom.

I'm just missing some SW in TOR right now...

 

SWTOR fails on many things...

 

PVE is a complete joke in this game... COMPLETE JOKE 1, it was buggy as hell and 2 when it wasnt buggy the pve was insanely easy... talking about clearing all content nightmare in a very short time and then what are we left with?

 

Crafting system sucks the pvp system sucks and imbalanced with pyros 3 shotting people and marauders that have more tank abilities then tanks, a crap legacy system that id trade for a complete game...

 

this game just fails on basically everything and they tried copying wow in the style and failed in that, if i wanted to play wow id play wow but wow blows...

 

GW2 here i come

[johnyangelo]

Because it's not 2004 and market with MMOs is COMPLETELY different.