Honest opinion- do you think the game is in trouble?

[Liquidacid]

When I think of trinity, I think of it having to be done by diff people. 1 for heals, 1 for tank, 1 for damage. I think most do, though I could be wrong. Hence, no more trinity.

 

How would one make a game where you didnt take or recieve damage?

 

see that is the problem... for any given game there are some things that need to be done... now you can make up tons of ways to "tank" mitigation, dodging, absorption, high armor or whatnot... but at the end of the day it's all same... you are still performing the "tank" job... now you may be a hybrid and also do another job, something like GW2 where they "eliminated" healers by just making everyone do the role... it's not really eliminated it's still there just distributed differently the role is still there and that part of the trinity is still being filled

 

the only real games that have no trinity are ones where everyone does everything (like single player games where you are a lone hero) and even then it's semantics because IT is still there but you can't really call it the trinity because it's all being done by one person.. all the trinity really is is taking the "jobs" that need to be done in a videogame and splitting them up between a group

 

on topic tho... this game is doing fine... not as good as they had hoped for sure... but better than a lot of others and more than good enough to keep going

Edited June 20, 2012 by Liquidacid

[The-Vortex]

You have to be trolling. There is no way you are that willfully ignorant. There is no damage mit role..... there is no healing role.....everybody does damage, and heals themselves...... boss mobs just bounce agro around most the time, so no tanks. Like I said, have to be trolling, nobody is that special.

 

 

 

 

edit.. oops, sorry. caught your edit in my quote. edit faster!

 

On paper this is all well and good, and for PvP its awsome. I played the first weekend and for the first time in ages I enjoyed PvP, however I don't play mmo's for PvP, I'm in it for the raiding (not the loot or gear treadmill, I enjoy the tactical side of it and getting together with 8/16 friends and just laying waste to some bosses for a few hours, which guild wars 2 doesn't even have, but that's another can of worms for another time, and no - a handful of 5-man dungeons is not an endgame, not to me at least).

 

Now the problem with this system is that all fights just degenerate into a clusterf***k of people spamming abilites and then shouting to be picked up when they didn't move out of the fire, just as I feared it would. I know this because I witnessed this happening 3 times during multiple instances of the same 'dynamic' event (I could rant for hours on how deceptive this term is, but I won't) in the norn starting area (Hoelbrak I think?) where you have to kill the cult leader on the icy lake. Yes there was a ton of people but everyone was just nuking the boss then screaming to be picked up when they didn't move from the ice patches or the tornado, it was a complete mess. With this non-trinity I honestly don't think you can have any form of sophisticated PvE encounters because you just don't have the mechanics to deal with it. Boss damage will either be far too high and the self heals won't be able to cope, or be so laughably low that you just spam that on cooldown, and without a proper threat mechanic that comes with tanking the casters will end up getting nuked within seconds and if their personal heal is on cooldown, how the hell are they supposed to survive? Someone can taunt off them... oh wait.

 

I'm sure some people like that sort of thing, but I don't. I'd much rather have a system that admittedly is a dated concept but has proven it can work very well in PvE. I don't think guild wars 2 will be the second coming as people claim it is, it will fill its niche, like guild wars 1 and hell even this game before it but nothing more. it will just be another casuallty of the hype train like so many mmo's before it. Mark my words, their forums will be pretty much identical to these 6 months after that game releases, complaining about a lack of content, about how theres nobody around to do 'dynamic' events with at lower levels, about how "this game suxor and 'insert mmo here' will be the final nail in the coffin". Its a sad reality.

 

OT: Before the server transfers I would probably be siding with those claiming the game is dead etc etc, however I think with the transfers they may be on the track to turning things around and with 1.3 coming soon bring some pretty cool and arguably needed features this game will probably end up being fine.

[MaximusRex]

Hi OP:

 

Yes, the game is in trouble.

 

I doubt we will even hear any more subscriber numbers.

 

SWTOR'll be F2P, relatively soon, my guess is before the end of 2012.

 

I'll come back and check it out when it does go to that model.

 

 

 

 

Hi, the rest of you:

 

F2P can't or won't happen here, you say?

 

Yes it can, and here's my eerily-similar example of another hugely-overhyped MMO with a very strong IP doing exactly the same thing, in 2011.... DCUO (DC Universe Online)

 

I can't be the only person here who watched DCUO go down, in exactly the same way, can I?

 

The chatter on the DCUO forums was amazingly similar, as well, heh heh.

 

I'm not so sure that going F2P in of itself is an indication of a game failing as it might be that the market is shifting away from Pay to Play. Its very difficult for any studio to pump out content faster then all but the most casual player can consume it, and those players are less likely to feel that the $15/mo is worth while if they don't play much. Games that had stable numbers and went F2P have usually wound up doing better. The downside is there isn't a for sure revenue stream, so there is a bit more risk, and I think that is why we haven't yet seen a Western MMO launch with a Hybrid F2P model, instead they have all converted.

[Soluss]

yes i did, you linked something about galaxies. not a clue what that has todo with gw2. And the article i linked you states, gems and gold can be traded visa versa, you can buy gems with cash you trade gems for gold, you buy or boost your way through the game.

 

What you keep glossing over is the only thing gems can buy are cosmetic features.... you cant boost yourself with cosmetic items. How many times does that need to be said?

 

My swg link was to retort your supposed claim that swg held 300k subs throughout many years when it did nowhere near do so.

[BeeblesTV]

What are you looking forward to the most from what we have been given sneak info for, can include space project ?

 

Group finder honestly. I don't have time to run a guild or join one, it will be nice to experience the content without needing a regular team.

[Shingara]

Group finder honestly. I don't have time to run a guild or join one, it will be nice to experience the content without needing a regular team.

 

ye that is a nice touch, with the sound of its going to increase your access to content immensly.

[jarjarloves]

 

 

 

Hi, the rest of you:

 

F2P can't or won't happen here, you say?

 

Yes it can, and here's my eerily-similar example of another hugely-overhyped MMO with a very strong IP doing exactly the same thing, in 2011.... DCUO (DC Universe Online)

 

I can't be the only person here who watched DCUO go down, in exactly the same way, can I?

 

The chatter on the DCUO forums was amazingly similar, as well, heh heh.

 

well clearlly you weren't watching.

 

DCUO had a really strong start and then dropped a bit. Then Sony was hacked and all their customers personal information was stolen. Sony shut DCUO down for 2 months.

 

Now can you guess how many people logged on or even resubscribed to DCUO after it was shut down for 2 months and all their customers credit card information was stolen?

 

Less then 5k. That's across Playstation and PC.

 

So for the next 6 months they didn't do any updates and just prepared the game to go F2P and essentially relaunch their game.

 

When they relaunched it the game did amazingingly well and is now quite succesful.

 

So yeah unless you are planning to hack Bioware and EA the idea that the same thing is happening to SWTOR is just completely stupid. You ARE the only one seeing the same thing happening because it is not happening.

Edited June 20, 2012 by jarjarloves

[TheSeventhJedi]

Is it in trouble in the way that SWG was in trouble at the end of last year? No.

 

Is it doing as well as anyone who matters was hoping for? Probably not.

[Soluss]

Btw ... Holy Trinity was pretty much coined in the original Everquest. It stands for Tank, Healer, CC.

[Karquile]

But the key quote in Dan's old blog post is this:

Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we ****ed it up to the point of having 200k subs.

That is what LucasArts believes, and that is what its game partners duly quote back to them and try to live up to. There's just no evidence that it's true in the MMO market. Pick some other market - say, bedroom furnishings for boys aged 5-8 - and you can make a strong case that STAR WARS is the premium brand. Console SPG's - a top seller, mostly thanks to LEGO STAR WARS. But in MMO's? An honorable minor player. You can't spend your way around it, you can't NGE your way around it, you probably can't even F2P your way around it. EA is a champion box seller, but they're not making their nut back on this one.

 

Fortunately, because everyone is so worshipful of the IP, there's a lot of prestige on the line, so I imagine we will have this game around for a while, and if they're lucky enough to hold on to their developer core, there'll be lots of fun play in the future.

[GalacticKegger]

It's very hard to ignore the various harbingers of doom that have popped up over the months. Since my own rp server (Lord Kalypho) has turned into a ghost fleet, i abandoned my IA and went to a better populated server. This is within 6 months of playing. Something I never thought that I would have been doing in the first year.

 

I have defended swtor tooth and nail since day one, but even i had a bit of "oh dear...maybe I have been wrong" as I was re-rolling another character last night.

 

So being honest, are any of the die hard defenders of the game starting to feel the same way?

Not here OP. I personally could not care less whether TOR becomes the defacto MMO or not. And I sure won't care how it compares to other games unless Bioware sends me a survey requesting me to. Judging by all the ZOMG reactions to having such huge server populations to interact with now, players are finally getting to play the game as intended - and for the most part they seem to like it. So I would hazard a guess that the game is not in trouble. Edited June 20, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Moroder]

Great discussionn guys. I have to say my new server home is treating me well so this is definitely a good upswing for me. I am also finding the re roll refreshing. so the game still has me for the forseeable future anyway

[fptackle]

Nah. Not worried.

 

MMOs have a natural progression. There is an initial boom of players who try it when it's new and shiney. They bounce from game to game. Their departure from this game is no differant, and does not reflect poorly on SWTOR or it's development.

 

At launch, that huge population of try-it players requires additional servers. After the first few months, the population tapers off to the players who will actually stick with it. Personally, I would have preferred Mergers to Transfers, but the end result is the same: get all the real players in the same place to face the future of the game.

 

Free To Play 1-15 does not even warrant a raised eyebrow. How is it honestly any differant than the 7 day free trials we were able to give our friends. It's just enough to get new people exposed to the great story and let them sample the combat, but then require subscription before they can really join the rest of us. I'm not concerned with a huge number of Freeplay Trolls swarming Coruscant; they won't really amount to more than a speedbump for a paying customer's progression of an alt.

 

There will be changes, yes, but I think most of these changes were probably anticipated before the game even launched to address the natural flow of things. I see nothing differant here than I do in any number of other games. We'll be fine for quite a while.

[thomasmeadows]

If anything kills this game, it will be because it is too catered to casual players. It borderlines a mmo and a single player game w/ multi-player features. Edited June 20, 2012 by thomasmeadows

[Littlegem]

Honest opinion - do you think the game is in trouble?

 

No.

It is was it is. It will always have a reasonable following. There are ways to make it turn a profit or cost less to develop if it comes to it.

 

However, I do think that the days of people playing the same MMO for years are probably over on the whole.

People dont have the time or the patients to invest years into a game and no development team would ever be able to keep up with the speed new content and features is demanded.

 

So long term massive player bases are a thing of the past imo. Consolidated servers and new subs is key to ongoing success for the game. A fact that is mirrored in game with guilds trying to survive at the current time. You only need look at the spam on the fleets atm, to witness the consolidation process going on in full force.

 

Thats why 1-15 FOC is a good idea imo. And I expect this is not news to the bigwigs at EA and I would expect to see lots of other ideas to attract new players as the months go on.

 

Accepting that WoW is a freak to this model and should be discounted as such.

[Revan-the-knight]

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/172482/BioWare_looking_at_freetoplay_for_Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic.php

 

Bioware "EA" is thinking about making it free to play so 100% yes.

 

That is refferring to the free to play until lvl 15 that starts in July, Every Game has a Trial Nowadays, industry Standards, besides, EA would never make it Free to Play

[samht]

If this game dies, you can pretty much say goodbye to MMOS. I mean if you can't have BW (one of the greatest game designers) and Star Wars IP ( a huge IP) succeed at making an MMO + subs than who can? If SWTOR dies so well sub MMOS plain and simple, no publisher will ever devote money to it, unless the developer's name starts with B and ends with D.

[samht]

lol, Ive been in beta too. For a while. You are not special..... I dont group, but I spend more time playing with other people than I ever have before, because I dont need to be grouped to share in all rewards. Another thing that is evolving. People help you out more on that game than Ive ever seen. There is no race for a node or a mob. I also play a melee dps that needs absolutely zero healing from another player. And there are no tanks.... odd. I guess there is not a trinity after all? If you play beta and think you need heals, then you are just not playing right, and need to learn the new style. You cant stand still and spam anymore.

 

I dont buy spin, I play and make my own opinions. Sorry mine differ from yours, I guess that means Im just ignorant.

 

what i got from playing guild wars 2 is that you still need healers and tanks for hard dungeons. They have said as much, but more class can do that thou some will do it better than others. I just don't like the long cds on guild wars 2 and the responsiveness of combat. they need to add some base or something to make it feel more responsive. That seems to be the number one complain on the fourms too. The game is also buggy but its beta. FYI: already prepurchased it and can't wait. 3 mmos here i come (wow gw2 and swtor)

[Woetoo]

Yes.

 

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[Goretzu]

If this game dies, you can pretty much say goodbye to MMOS. I mean if you can't have BW (one of the greatest game designers) and Star Wars IP ( a huge IP) succeed at making an MMO + subs than who can? If SWTOR dies so well sub MMOS plain and simple, no publisher will ever devote money to it, unless the developer's name starts with B and ends with D.

 

Blizzard (maybe).

 

Or someone that actually innovates and moved the MMORPG forward and doesn't basically try to rehash Everquest (1999).

[Kalfear]

If this game dies, you can pretty much say goodbye to MMOS. I mean if you can't have BW (one of the greatest game designers) and Star Wars IP ( a huge IP) succeed at making an MMO + subs than who can? If SWTOR dies so well sub MMOS plain and simple, no publisher will ever devote money to it, unless the developer's name starts with B and ends with D.

 

LOL overly dramatic

 

Im hoping this is the last of the easy fast and sloppy design WOW introduced

 

But MMOs will continue on, the dev just need to get their heads around the fact that if you make the games to easy and to fast to level in, you end up with no subscribers a month after release!

 

Someone will get the message EA and Trion (Rift) refused to understand and will eventually make a MMO that makes sence.

 

Some of TORs concepts will even be used in it as not everything TOR did was bad.

Some of Rifts concepts will also be used as not everything Rift did was bad.

 

But mostly look at concepts and ideals that came before WOW, not after, to become the staple again and MMOs to be developed for the long term base rather then the short term turn over.

 

I dont actually hate TOR and even been having some fun now transfered to a busier server. But the problems that caused the mass subscription losses still remain and if TOR keeps losing subs at the rate it has been for first 6 months. DAoC, a game that was designed for well under 1 million players (and budget to suit that design) will end up haveing a larger paying subscriber base after their first year then TOR will have after their first year.

 

That pretty much drives the message home that fast, easy, sloppy design doesnt work in the MMORPG genre. The players that design attracts do not commit for 12-24-36 months like players did to the older MMORPG titles prior to WOW (WOW got the numbers using the fast, easy, sloppy design but no one after them did).

 

MMOs not dead, Developers just need to pay attention to the ENTIRE history of the genre.

 

IF this game released as the players (not the SWG ones as they were told immediately this was not a sandbox game) posted they were looking forward to in Oct 08, this game would still be going super strong with I dare say a 80%+ retention rate on subscriptions, rather then below 50% as it stands now.

 

Anyways, this will not be the death of MMOs.

Might be the Death of Star Wars MMOs as no one seems to be able to put out what the people want.

But not the death of MMOs.

[Kayin]

If this game dies, you can pretty much say goodbye to MMOS. I mean if you can't have BW (one of the greatest game designers) and Star Wars IP ( a huge IP) succeed at making an MMO + subs than who can? If SWTOR dies so well sub MMOS plain and simple, no publisher will ever devote money to it, unless the developer's name starts with B and ends with D.

 

Agreed. I have not lost hope on the games, but I have lost hope on the players.

[Goretzu]

Agreed. I have not lost hope on the games, but I have lost hope on the players.

 

That's a bit daft, if SWTOR had launched with the best bits of SWTOR and the best bits of SWG, the game would have been amazing.

 

Instead SWTOR launched with some very real strengths, but equally with some very real flaws.

 

 

Fit for purpose RvR all by itself might have held another 200,000+ subs.

[DarthMaulUK]

When you read any publication, consider a few things. Gaming media is simply too scared to tell the truth when it comes to large publishers. Look at all the high review scores SWTOR had and frankly, how can a game missing so many basic elements score 8 and 9/10?

 

The reason - advertising. Its all about money. Now, any triple A MMO that loses 700k players inside its first 6 months must be doing something wrong. Only a handful of MMOs have actually grown in the pay2play arena, even before F2P was the buzz.

 

Unless massive changes are made to improve the game, especially endgame, then it will only continue to decline, no matter how much EA try to juggle their words with 'active subs'.

 

From a community point of view, the current team have until recently been nothing more than over paid forum moderators. Outside of the guild chat, we havent seen a single actual community event - or live event in game. There is so much more they could and should be doing but for whatever reason, are not.

 

MMOs are all about community but yet you visit the dreadful community page here and its just forums. Where is the fan site love, where are community wallpapers and community 'love' - there isnt any. Active communities help fuel growth. Maybe it was Stephen Reids fault for not having the vision, or maybe his hands were tied by a Management so out of touch, it hurts. We will never know.

[Valkirus]

If this game dies, you can pretty much say goodbye to MMOS. I mean if you can't have BW (one of the greatest game designers) and Star Wars IP ( a huge IP) succeed at making an MMO + subs than who can? If SWTOR dies so well sub MMOS plain and simple, no publisher will ever devote money to it, unless the developer's name starts with B and ends with D.

 

TOR is not going to die. No more than Rift did. They closed down SWG because Lucas Arts would not renew thier contract with Sony, instead wanting to devote thier resources to TOR or even it would still be up and running. TOR will get down to maybe 300 - 500K subs and then stablize with the fans who are devoted to the game keeping it profitable.

 

The only MMO which will overtake WoW is Blizzard's own new MMO coming...Titan. Because Blizzard understands one thing about thier games...the great majority of thier MMO is made up of casual gamers. Those who play a couple hrs a day at most and want to have fun and a feeling of accomplishment without having to marry thier computers.