NuSeC Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 OK guys I have to say it... I am a jugg tank and am asking Bioware to please not nerf Ops anymore... The reason I am saying it is simple... we have been nerfing them because of people that need to L2P. People popping their CC breaker after the first stun... etc. They have nerfed them into a position that makes them nearly laughable in pvp and after burst is gone they cant sustain in PVE. I understand that the healing is awesome but for damage it's too hard to do anything after they use their initial burst. People see that initial burst and freak out and pop a cc breaker just to get locked and killed... because they need to L2P. Please L2P and stop asking for nerfs... there are a couple classes that may need a nerf or adjustment but OPs are not one of them. And now after 1.3 is out, Biochem is getting a nerf so you will see a slight drop in burst damage. TL;DR L2P, OPs have already been nerfed to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kif_kif Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Oh, God, thank you, thank you for these words! Will you marry me? Seriously speaking, DPS Ops need some serious buff. (I guess I'm gonna be tortured for saying that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xienive Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Oh, God, thank you, thank you for these words! Will you marry me? Seriously speaking, DPS Ops need some serious buff. (I guess I'm gonna be tortured for saying that) Reported for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kif_kif Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Reported for this. I knew it would end badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSeC Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Oh, God, thank you, thank you for these words! Will you marry me? Seriously speaking, DPS Ops need some serious buff. (I guess I'm gonna be tortured for saying that) I believe.... and correct me if I am wrong But I think you guys need a little more sustained damage. After burst it really makes me sad to even fight an OP because the challenge to it is not there anymore. There was a time when I would be in a death race with an OP... that just does not happen much anymore. I want to feel a threat from every encounter with any other class. "same gear/skill" Otherwise... whats the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kif_kif Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Low sustained DPS is only the tip of the iceberg... There re much more, IMO, problems which I won't talk about. In our case, there re 2 possible solutions (my personal opinion, hope yu won't judge it too hard): a) Increasing sustained dps by giving more Armor Penetration (up to 50% from 30%) and reducing the CD of several abilities (Explosive probe, Backstab maybe) OR b) allowing us to restalth more often thus giving us the ability to increase our DPS from time to time. In this case, our DPS would look like more a cardiogram. This is just an idea (maybe a bad one), nothing more. It could be done by reducing the CD of Cloaking Screen to 30 secs or smth like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi-joachim Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Finally, one other class thinking the same as us Operatives. Thank you for sharing your opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kif_kif Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 People see that initial burst and freak out and pop a cc breaker just to get locked and killed... because they need to L2P. Although I'm not completely agree with you. I ve been playing my Ops since the very start and I m truly convinced that before January 31st Ops was OP due to those stacking adrenals etc. But then it was overnerfed due to QQ issues, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giladd Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 NERF DPS OPERATIVES NAO. THEY ARE TOO OP FOR THEIR OWN GOOD. They stunlock people's computers so they can't even type for help on turrets =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daiyukie Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Make our class skill Smuggle exactly like the Marauder cloak and the class is fixed. Perhaps a 2 second trip/knockdown as well but stunlocking is bad (only Shadow/Sin is allowed to do that just like only BH are allowed to laugh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSeC Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Although I'm not completely agree with you. I ve been playing my Ops since the very start and I m truly convinced that before January 31st Ops was OP due to those stacking adrenals etc. But then it was overnerfed due to QQ issues, yes. Correct, I am talking about QQ babies crying for nerfs and not reviewing classes and understanding them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuchitus Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Correct, I am talking about QQ babies crying for nerfs and not reviewing classes and understanding them. The "Hardcore" pvpers are the most whinners, they keep making threads about QQ babies all the time... they are worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laforet Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) They arent that good at the moment and they are going down very hard with the adrenal nerf. There are some good players that play scrapper its going to be tought for them. What i find amusing is that they had no shame to (totally overdone) nerf scrapper dps patch after patch. Now they think that their game has a burst dps problem, it does have. The burst dps problem is caused by relic / adrenal stacking, YES BUT JUST PARTIALLY. The core of the burst dps problem is how some classes interact with gear, especially gear scaling. This problem is caused mainly by 2 classes, which are marauders and pyrotechs. These 2 classes actually rule over all other dps classes in the game, be them ranged or melee. When it comes to raw dps + pressure + healer killing, no one gets the job done as good as these two. And as an icing on the cake, pyrotech dps does not require much thinking from its players (not saying there arent good and respected pyrotechs out there, there are) but even a mediocre player can put out an incredible amount of damage juggling with 3 buttons and a proc while keeping their targets snared 90% of the time and (almost) never running out of resources. So instead of fixing the FOTM they created (pyro/mara), they nerf a mechanic that is going to affect all dps classes of the game, ESPECIALLY SCRAPPER/CONCEALMENT. Will the adrenal nerf hit pyrotechs and marauder? IT WILL. But they will still be monster dpsers even after it. Will the adrenal nerf hit scrapper/operative? IT WILL RENDER THEM TOTALLY USELESS, they are taking away the little output that your class have. Im baffled by this kind of decision. It is just shocking that 1.3 patchnotes leave some classes untouched. Its not the adrenal fault, the adrenals just shed light into the class unbalance. They are actually taking away the spotlight, but the problem is still there. If you roll PvP and you want to DPS, theres no other class to roll except pyrotech or marauder. If you roll pvp and want to heal, theres no other class to play except sawbones/medic. Any smart non-biased player can see that. Scrapper Scoundrel was one of the most meaningful class in the game, its fun to play with, its fun to fight against, it has a good skill cap. And they just destroying it to favor a dumb class to play with, a crap class to play against with very low skill cap. Congratulations, this game had so much potential. If you want a picture of the future of swtor pvp, imagine a rail shot stamping on a sages face- forever. Edited June 19, 2012 by Laforet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
netskink Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Low sustained DPS is only the tip of the iceberg... There re much more, IMO, problems which I won't talk about. In our case, there re 2 possible solutions (my personal opinion, hope yu won't judge it too hard): a) Increasing sustained dps by giving more Armor Penetration (up to 50% from 30%) and reducing the CD of several abilities (Explosive probe, Backstab maybe) OR b) allowing us to restalth more often thus giving us the ability to increase our DPS from time to time. In this case, our DPS would look like more a cardiogram. This is just an idea (maybe a bad one), nothing more. It could be done by reducing the CD of Cloaking Screen to 30 secs or smth like that. You don't know the half of it. Many times I've respawned in the lobby "in combat". Seriously. I've also fought a guy retreated healed myself and then sit wondering when I am going to end combat so I can stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuey Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If you really want something to be done about it roll an Op/Scoundrel and convert it to your main. So long as we're that underplayed class we'll never have the pull subscription number wise to get any fixes. Be as naive as you want, but they ain't gonna waste their resources for so little gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trauglodyte Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The problem with DPS Ops/Scrappers is really two fold: - Conc Ops/Scrappers are heavy front loaded in DPS. Once you get past the initial 3s of combat, you're in the clear and only being marginally annoyed. With the changes to Back Stab/Back Blast, the next big hit is 12s away. Lethality/Dirty Fighting suffer more because the tree is so energy heavy (40 energy spent to put up two DoTs) and TA generation is limited because you're forced to use the Energy builder to compensate for the heavy energy costs, thus reducing the use of Cull. - DPS Ops/Scoundrels suffer from a serious lack of survivability. While everyong, except for Juggs/Marauders say this, the Ops/Scoundrels have it the hardest. Stealth, while powerful, is extremely fragile and broken by actions made against people around you (thank you AoE) and broken by anyone with an anti-stealth sight talent (damned near everyone). Once broken, you can't re-enter stealth without the use of a long cool down (over 2x the cool down of Force Camo when talented) and even that is broken on damage done afterwards. After stealth, we have a Dodge talent (lasts 3s) which only works against melee and ranged attacks. But, because of its overall uselessness and the fact that it naturally removes DoTs of all types, its put on reserve for when we Vanish. The other defensive cool down is a Shield that is 1/2 as strong as that of a Trooper/BH but on half the cool down which means we shrug off half the damage but twice as often. That's great if we could live long enough where double the up time is beneficial. But we can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LancelotOC Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Easy fix. Give Marauders ability to use Master Strike from stealth and give PTs a 95% to proc a second Rail Shot off Rail shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHotter Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 As someone who plays many classes, the thing that the DPS operative was missing for me was a way to help a team win beyond DPS. After too many times watching the enemy walk away when I knew my knight, shadow, or powertech could have saved a score or survived long enough for help to get there. The stealth part comes in handy, but I could be just as good at stealth DPS if I spec my shadow for DPS. Then of course I could also just make the shadow better by specing for tank/dps. Now that most of us have had time to level more than one character I'd imagine the only people who think that the operative/scoundrel are ok in PvP are those who never rolled any other class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malchoir Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 They need to fix the re-stealth.... OPs initial burst comes from being in stealth. It shouldnt take me 30 seconds of standing around just to get out of combat and back into stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I believe.... and correct me if I am wrong But I think you guys need a little more sustained damage. After burst it really makes me sad to even fight an OP because the challenge to it is not there anymore. Pretty much. If Ops/Scoundrel fails to crit out of stealth, it's pretty much lights out for them. With the removal of Adrenals from WZs in 1.3, things will be even more difficult for them. They do need some love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavory Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Pretty much. If Ops/Scoundrel fails to crit out of stealth, it's pretty much lights out for them. With the removal of Adrenals from WZs in 1.3, things will be even more difficult for them. They do need some love. My biggest issue right now is non-burst burst: That is, 1900-2100 non crit openers which seem to happen 50% of the time. Giving Hidden Strike a 75-90% crit chance would go a long way to help the concealment woes right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 My biggest issue right now is non-burst burst: That is, 1900-2100 non crit openers which seem to happen 50% of the time. Giving Hidden Strike a 75-90% crit chance would go a long way to help the concealment woes right now. Yeah. I'll tell you...getting 1900-2000 hit on my opener....after popping adrenals and relics...is downright depressing. Even more depressing when the backblast right after crits for 3500. Why even bother having a special stealth specific skill, when the out of stealth can hit for nearly as hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seravis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) OK guys I have to say it... I am a jugg tank and am asking Bioware to please not nerf Ops anymore... The reason I am saying it is simple... we have been nerfing them because of people that need to L2P. People popping their CC breaker after the first stun... etc. They have nerfed them into a position that makes them nearly laughable in pvp and after burst is gone they cant sustain in PVE. I understand that the healing is awesome but for damage it's too hard to do anything after they use their initial burst. People see that initial burst and freak out and pop a cc breaker just to get locked and killed... because they need to L2P. Please L2P and stop asking for nerfs... there are a couple classes that may need a nerf or adjustment but OPs are not one of them. And now after 1.3 is out, Biochem is getting a nerf so you will see a slight drop in burst damage. TL;DR L2P, OPs have already been nerfed to death. Gotta love that there is a class that can stun longer than Operatives and have higher Burst, ignores ALL armor as well, on top of it. To make matter worse they can PULL their target into their team before they begin said stunlock. But nah Bioware keep nerfing those scumbag Operatives! There are still teams of them stunlocking people to death. Edited June 19, 2012 by Seravis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fayme Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Man, and I enjoyed playing my operative, but after reading all this, I feel like re-rolling..again. Or switch to heals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kif_kif Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Will the adrenal nerf hit scrapper/operative? IT WILL RENDER THEM TOTALLY USELESS, they are taking away the little output that your class have. [/b] I think it's too early to say things like that. We do rely on our relic/adrenal burst dps, yes. But according to the posts I've seen, the new relics won't be, IMO, less powerful than the previous ones. Each 1.3 WH power relic gives + 113 power permanently, so it is + 226 in all. Now the WH relic gives +405 for 20 secs. So, if we compare them, I think things aren't that bad. All I say is that things aren't that obvious (personally I would choose +226 perma power than +405 for 20 secs on 1 min CD, but maybe yu will disagree) and that we have too see those relics in action and we should do some parsing before making such conclusions. You don't know the half of it. Many times I've respawned in the lobby "in combat". Seriously. I've also fought a guy retreated healed myself and then sit wondering when I am going to end combat so I can stealth. Oh, believe me, I do know about 'em after 7 months of playing Ops. ) Although I see this bug at least 1 time per WZ (haven't reported it, good job if you did!), I think it's a minor issue comparing to our other problems... a) With the changes to Back Stab/Back Blast, the next big hit is 12s away. b) After stealth, we have a Dodge talent (lasts 3s) which only works against melee and ranged attacks. The other defensive cool down is a Shield that is 1/2 as strong as that of a Trooper/BH but on half the cool down which means we shrug off half the damage but twice as often. Stealth, while powerful, is extremely fragile and broken by actions made against people around you. Once broken, you can't re-enter stealth without the use of a long cool down (over 2x the cool down of Force Camo when talented) and even that is broken on damage done afterwards. a) Just what I m saying - reduce the CDs of several abilities... Although, actually, we have an Explosive Probe. And after using it Shiv is again not that far.) b) Completely agree, those are serious issues. Dodge/Evasion is garbage. I think it should give some serious protection - be it an ability to evade from all incoming attacks for 3 - 5 secs or, maybe, + 60-70% resistance to all damage types (more realistic, I think). Same with Shield - Melee class with lowest survaivabilty has the worst shield ability. Really logical, huh? They need to fix the re-stealth.... OPs initial burst comes from being in stealth. It shouldnt take me 30 seconds of standing around just to get out of combat and back into stealth. Well, it usually takes 8 secs of not making ANY hostile action to restealth, man. My biggest issue right now is non-burst burst: That is, 1900-2100 non crit openers which seem to happen 50% of the time. Giving Hidden Strike a 75-90% crit chance would go a long way to help the concealment woes right now. Good idea, btw! /bump Although it would certainly arise some "OP NERF EM NAAAAW QQing"... Edited June 20, 2012 by kif_kif quoted the wrong post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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