Same gender relationships clarifications?

[losdia]

Okay, this may end up getting deleted, but I've been biting my tongue to keep from posting this for about a week now and the conversation going on over in General Discussion finally tipped me over the edge. Why the hell do we always say "We're not saying this should be a priority"? Hell yes SGR should be a priority! I don't know about anyone else, but if they decided that they had to cut SGR from 1.5 for "higher priority content" like that damn droid I would go out of my freakin' mind with rage.

 

Look, I'm not saying bug fixes shouldn't be top priority. I would really love to be able to play a marathon session without having a system crash from the new shadow effects, but why do we cede the ground that "more popular content" should be considered a higher priority? The various incarnations of this thread has had more than a half million views at this point and I've seen at least two dozen players announce here that they're quitting TOR over the lack of SGR. To me that sounds like this is important to a fair chunk of the playerbase.

 

Ignoring that though, why do we accept the premise that PVP and group content should be a higher priority than SGR and general story content? Everytime some anti-SGR naysayer says "We need better endgame content!" we act like that is a valid argument. Since we've been waiting for SGR there have been four major game updates which are mostly focused on endgame content! They literally just got a new one and half the forums are going MOAR! I know there are genuine problems that need fixing, but why is pvp balance always regarded as an acceptable priority over story? This isn't a democracy, the most popular content doesn't win, and I reject the idea that what "The Majority Of Players Want" is more raids. I think most players either want impossible pipe dream content or general improvements to the overall game. General improvements doesn't translate to endgame, it makes fixing all of the minor problems in the game (like the lack of SGR)!

 

I know that the "priorities" argument is mostly thinly veiled homophobia, but so what? It sounds reasonable enough to someone stupid enough to buy into the golden mean fallacy.

 

Okay, rant over. I'm off to actually play the game for a while.

Edited September 29, 2012 by losdia

[tolaf]

Okay, this may end up getting deleted, but I've been biting my tongue to keep from posting this for about a week now and the conversation going on over in General Discussion finally tipped me over the edge. Why the hell do we always say "We're not saying this should be a priority"? Hell yes SGR should be a priority! I don't know about anyone else, but if they decided that they had to cut SGR from 1.5 for "higher priority content" like that damn droid I would go out of my freakin' mind with rage.

 

Look, I'm not saying bug fixes shouldn't be top priority. I would really love to be able to play a marathon session without having a system crash from the new shadow effects, but why do we seed the ground that "more popular content" should be considered a higher priority? The various incarnations of this thread has had more than a half million views at this point and I've seen at least two dozen players announce here that they're quitting TOR over the lack of SGR. To me that sounds like this is important to a fair chunk of the playerbase.

 

Ignoring that though, why do we accept the premise that PVP and group content should be a higher priority than SGR and general story content? Everytime some anti-SGR naysayer says "We need better endgame content!" we act like that is a valid argument. Since we've been waiting for SGR there have been four major game updates which are mostly focused on endgame content! They literally just got a new one and half the forums are going MOAR! I know there are genuine problems that need fixing, but why is pvp balance always regarded as an acceptable priority over story? This isn't a democracy, the most popular content doesn't win, and I reject the idea that what "The Majority Of Players Want" is more raids. I think most players either want impossible pipe dream content or general improvements to the overall game. General improvements doesn't translate to endgame, it makes fixing all of the minor problems in the game (like the lack of SGR)!

 

I know that the "priorities" argument is mostly thinly veiled homophobia, but so what? It sounds reasonable enough to someone stupid enough to buy into the golden mean fallacy.

 

Okay, rant over. I'm off to actually play the game for a while.

 

People just want larger content that everybody can enjoy, they aren't saying SGR's are at the bottom of the list just that they are not the top priority.

[losdia]

People just want larger content that everybody can enjoy, they aren't saying SGR's are at the bottom of the list just that they are not the top priority.

 

Okay, so let us break this down. Prioritize it for me. What exactly do you think BW's priority list should look like and where exactly does SGR fit on it?

[tolaf]

Okay, so let us break this down. Prioritize it for me. What exactly do you think BW's priority list should look like and where exactly does SGR fit on it?

Well if i had to make a list right now it should be:

1) Fixing 1.4 bugs

2) Makeb

3) HK-51

4) Cathar species

5) SGR's

 

So i wouldn't put it that far down.

[odericko]

Well if i had to make a list right now it should be:

1) Fixing 1.4 bugs

2) Makeb

3) HK-51

4) Cathar species

5) SGR's

 

So i wouldn't put it that far down.

 

Thankfully all those seem to be near completion or already done and waiting for a structured (every 6 week) launch.

[tolaf]

Thankfully all those seem to be near completion or already done and waiting for a structured (every 6 week) launch.

 

Yes hopefully they will start/continue working on SGR's once the projects in progress are done.

[losdia]

Yes hopefully they will start/continue working on SGR's once the projects in progress are done.

 

. . . SGR is done! Well, done-ish. Hence the head of PVP talking about it being part of 1.5.

[Kioma]

Well if i had to make a list right now it should be:

1) Fixing 1.4 bugs

2) Makeb

3) HK-51

4) Cathar species

5) SGR's

 

So i wouldn't put it that far down.

 

But you DID put it at the bottom, which rather contradicts your earlier statement.

 

Mine would be, out of those options:

 

1) Fixing major (gameplay-breaking) 1.4 bugs

2) SGRAs

3) Cathar species

4) Makeb

5) Fixing minor (mostly cosmetic) 1.4 bugs

6) HK-51

 

I'd do it like that because major bugs DO need addressing, and EVERYONE should wait for it - SGRA, PvP, PvE, operations, the whole lot. You can't play a game that's broken. After that, SGRAs should be a relatively smooth and easy implementation. Same with the Cathar (it's really just another model - which is already extant considering there's Cathar everywhere in-game - with different textures and one single social emote, it's not like it needs new vocal acting done or anything), so they may as well go in while harder stuff is being implemented. Those wouldn't take too much time away from implementing Makeb. I'd make HK-51 wait because it'd be nice if they fixed up the existing companions before ADDING MORE IN. Yeesh.

[tolaf]

. . . SGR is done! Well, done-ish. Hence the head of PVP talking about it being part of 1.5.

 

I hadn't heard, this is very welcome news! (If true)

[tolaf]

But you DID put it at the bottom, which rather contradicts your earlier statement.

 

Mine would be, out of those options:

 

1) Fixing major (gameplay-breaking) 1.4 bugs

2) SGRAs

3) Cathar species

4) Makeb

5) Fixing minor (mostly cosmetic) 1.4 bugs

6) HK-51

 

I'd do it like that because major bugs DO need addressing, and EVERYONE should wait for it - SGRA, PvP, PvE, operations, the whole lot. You can't play a game that's broken. After that, SGRAs should be a relatively smooth and easy implementation. Same with the Cathar (it's really just another model - which is already extant considering there's Cathar everywhere in-game - with different textures and one single social emote, it's not like it needs new vocal acting done or anything), so they may as well go in while harder stuff is being implemented. Those wouldn't take too much time away from implementing Makeb. I'd make HK-51 wait because it'd be nice if they fixed up the existing companions before ADDING MORE IN. Yeesh.

 

Sorry, i was hoping no one would say anything, but 5. is technically not the bottom i just didn't want to go into the lesser known topics and and have to decide their importance.

Everything under SGR's just weren't included, had they been they would not have been near the bottom. (Also this list was mostly made about the major content we know will be in the game.)

[Kioma]

Sorry, i was hoping no one would say anything, but 5. is technically not the bottom i just didn't want to go into the lesser known topics and and have to decide their importance.

Everything under SGR's just weren't included, had they been they would not have been near the bottom. (Also this list was mostly made about the major content we know will be in the game.)

 

Ah, I see. That makes sense, then.

[Palar]

Good points, from both sides - I just don't get the argument, since the different departments will be working on different things. I'm not sure I'd want writers doing code, either.

 

I hadn't heard, this is very welcome news! (If true)

 

It is. Sort of. The below quote:

Omg he answered!

 

Hall Hood ‏@hallhood

(1 of 2) To all the folks who have been expressing interest in SGRs, here is the official word from Gabe Amatangelo:

…

 

(2 of 2) When I can share more information, I will let you know. Writing romances is one of my favorite things about working on SWTOR. :-)

 

the vid is the same one we saw before

 

is from earlier in the week - Tweet 1 of 2 vanished into the ether, so it may not be official after all. It's a year on, and things are still as clear as mud.

[Uluain]

Okay, this may end up getting deleted, but I've been biting my tongue to keep from posting this for about a week now and the conversation going on over in General Discussion finally tipped me over the edge. Why the hell do we always say "We're not saying this should be a priority"? Hell yes SGR should be a priority! I don't know about anyone else, but if they decided that they had to cut SGR from 1.5 for "higher priority content" like that damn droid I would go out of my freakin' mind with rage.

 

My objection is to others who truck out the priority argument as a means of really saying "this is something I don't want, therefore you shouldn't have it."

 

Or who accuse me of claiming that what I want is more important than what they want. I do feel that this content is important. It certainly is, to me. But I have never said that because it is important to me that it should take priority over content others will enjoy. That's not my call to make. That is not any player's call to make because players want different things. Balancing those desires is the unenviable job of the game developers.

 

I also disclaim putting my wants ahead of those of others specifically to show how their demands are in fact selfish. "Most people want this, not that." Who really knows that? I don't. They don't. I have done market research – it is incredibly tedious and difficult. And yet it is trucked out as a reason why SGRs shouldn't matter. Really, it is just a way of saying "Me first! Me first!" – something that I was taught as inappropriate when I was in kindergarten.

 

I have been looking at threads that do demand content should be given top priority right now. At most, I see mild responses of "I know this is looked forward to, but I don't think it needs to be immediate." Those threads aren't attacked. SGR ones aren't. What is it that distinguishes threads about same-gender content from these? Only that they relate to same-gender orientation.

 

So when someone attacks a thread that is not proposing that SGRs should be in before anything else now, now, now! of course I object. Should SGRs be in the game? Hell yes! And NPC [Flirt] prompts, too. I want them a lot more than I want a new Warzone, or chat bubbles, or swoop racing, or even paid character transfers – but I don't attack other players for wanting those things. Not even for saying they want them first.

 

I have never, ever seen a proponent of same-gender content say that we should have them before bug fixes, or even before expanded end-game content. Yet we are consistently attacked for doing so. And this content tends to be singled out for this in ways other content isn't. I'll let you draw your own conclusions of the actual motives of those opposed. It seems pretty plain to me.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Uluain

[losdia]

Good points, from both sides - I just don't get the argument, since the different departments will be working on different things. I'm not sure I'd want writers doing code, either.

 

I mostly agree, and that is an argument I've made more than once myself. The thing is that at this point if SGR is coming in 1.5 the story team is done with it and it is probably going through QA testing. I don't know the particulars of BWs organizational structure, but in general there are two distinct teams that deal with fixing bugs. QA who's job it is to find bugs before a new content is added and a Live Team who deal with bugs that slipped by the QA guys into the released product. Since 1.4 was so buggy, it isn't outside the realm of possibilities that they are diverting QA guys to help out the Live Team. that means they might end up cutting down on new content in 1.5 if they are more worried about making a deadline than releasing all the content they want. I'm just saying, this is not the moment to be going "Oh, we're fine, we can wait."

[Kioma]

I'm just saying, this is not the moment to be going "Oh, we're fine, we can wait."

 

I absolutely agree. It's not the time to be saying that.

 

However, BW:A has shown a great propensity for ignoring what people are saying they want in favour of how they want to do things (a trait that can be, of course, both good and bad).

[Uluain]

I think I have read that QA is generally lent to the Live Team after a major content patch, though I may be mistaken. But if this is a general practice, it must be taken into account in the release schedule. QA will have a lot on its plate aside from SGRs of course. We have been told since march that same-gender content is being worked on in conjunction with broader story content – as it should be, if it had to be included post-launch, in my opinion – that is, it is seen and more importantly being treated not as something extraneous, but as an integral part of SWTOR content. And that is reassuring.

 

Whether or not Hall Hood has or has not confirmed it, from what we have been told of plans regarding SGRs coming with story content, with what we have been told of story continuing with Makeb and with Gabe Amatangelo's remarks (which were generously given without any apparent condescension in spite of it not being germane to his work or even to the rest of his interview), I think we can be reasonably safe in thinking that SGRs will come with Makeb.

 

That should clear up the notion of priority as far as those two are concerned. It isn't either / or. It's Makeb, which itself embodies the extension of story elements in the game, and SGR as part of what has always been intended to be included within the story aspects of the game. In that regards, I think the soonest we can reasonably expect any major details of SGRs is whenever they begin to seriously promote Makeb.

 

It seems likely that Free to Play is the next big step. That may coincide with new content released as well - perhaps Ancient Hypergates, offering the brand new Warzone that subscribers get full access to where free players find their access limited. It would be smart to showcase the advantages of membership with content free players can at least see, rather than with an Operation which would necessarily exclude them. They might well plan to drop HK-51 as well, with the quest unlock available to free players through the cash shop.

 

Those of you who don't have pagan friends are not only missing out on free homebrewed mead but also may lack a handy notion of what a 6-week release schedule looks like, but it amounts to eight a year, and they began it pretty darn close to the Autumn Equinox. Next 6 week point is around the start of November. After that is the Winter Solstice, AKA the holiday season. Then about February 1, then March 22 or so, then May 1 and so on.

 

Speculation, based on what little we know, connecting the dots. Since March, we have been told "this year" - not "this summer" or "this fall". So, if we are still on track for "new story coming this year", that would probably put Makeb at the holidays. SGRs for Christmas/Hanukkah/Yule/Kwanza/Winter Break? I'll take it.

[losdia]

My background in QA is pretty limited (one summer during college subcontracting doing QA on DDR of all thing), but I have enough experience coding to safely say the one thing you never ever do is integrate a large amount of new code into a program when you're bug testing. New code is best tested in the smallest discrete blocks you can manage to add to a stable build. Just adding a large lump of new code makes it nearly impossible to track down conflicts. Eventually everything does have to be integrated for testing of a new build, but that is only done after you've already worked on all the subsets of the upgrade.

 

My point is I doubt there is a big file sitting on a computer somewhere called "new story." I would assume BW probably works with about one scene of new content at a time, which has to be tested to destruction on about a dozen different hardware configurations. It is probably about a days work for a single team to fully test a single cutscene. So yeah, I think QA having to divert resources to help fix issues in the live client is probably going to slow them down a lot. Planed or not, the new graphics bugs seem like they have gotten away from BW a bit, and I do worry they will screw up the release schedule. I don't know if it will matter, but if there is a time crunch in QA I could easily see SGR being cut as "lower priority content" since BW has never officially confirmed that it will be in that release. I don't really think us talking about SGR as not being the highest priority will factor in such a decision, but let's not give them any ideas, k?

Edited September 29, 2012 by losdia

[Captain_Zone]

1.5 for SGRs??? If so, it won't be too long before my little blue Jedi Knight girl is in Kira's lovin' arms and getting some sweet sweet Kira Kisses.

[Kioma]

1.5 for SGRs??? If so, it won't be too long before my little blue Jedi Knight girl is in Kira's lovin' arms and getting some sweet sweet Kira Kisses.

 

If Kira is SGRA-enabled, yes (and gets a little JediKnight Inside sticker). We still don't know who will or won't be SGRA-enabled.

[Captain_Zone]

If Kira is SGRA-enabled, yes (and gets a little JediKnight Inside sticker). We still don't know who will or won't be SGRA-enabled.

 

"Stop with the negative waves, Moriarty!" - Oddball

 

+1 if you get the movie reference.

[Palar]

If Kira is SGRA-enabled, yes (and gets a little JediKnight Inside sticker). We still don't know who will or won't be SGRA-enabled.

 

If it's 1.5, there's not exactly a wide range - unless there's something about Satele or T7 they haven't told us.

[Rabenschwinge]

Kira is he only female Jedi Knight companion... If same gender romances were introduced and Kira was not an option there remain therefor only very limited possibilities:

 

• Same gender romances are generally included, but not for female Jedi Knight characters, if you want a gay Jedi Knight, you have to play a male one
  
• A new companion is introduced for all Jedi Knights
  
• There is a lesbian romance option with an existing, recurring Jedi Knight character, e.g. Master Kiwiiks, the story part involving that character would have to be extended and something other than the usual influence mechanism used.
  

 

Personally I would of course prefer if they build in more romances with non-companion characters anyway - some (well at least one) of them do exist, however tiny in scope. A romance with a character that you expected and is planned feel about as exciting as picking up datacrons using a guide. Of course that's a lot more work to first produce and then implement, it would require new mechanics and a lot more new dialogues.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Rabenschwinge

[Palar]

Kira is he only female Jedi Knight companion... If same gender romances were introduced and Kira was not an option there remain therefor only very limited possibilities:

 

• Same gender romances are generally included, but not for female Jedi Knight characters, if you want a gay Jedi Knight, you have to play a male one
  
• A new companion is introduced for all Jedi Knights
  
• There is a lesbian romance option with an existing, recurring Jedi Knight character, e.g. Master Kiwiiks, the story part involving that character would have to be extended and something other than the usual influence mechanism used.
  

 

Personally I would of course prefer if they build in more romances with non-companion characters anyway - some (well at least one) of them do exist, however tiny in scope. A romance with a character that you expected and is planned feel about as exciting as picking up datacrons using a guide. Of course that's a lot more work to first produce and then implement, it would require new mechanics and a lot more new dialogues.

 

Something like an expanded version of the 'fake-out LI' on Coruscant, if you play a male Trooper? That could be interesting.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Palar

[Uluain]

Something that has never been actually stated, ever, is that there will be same-gender romances available to all classes nor, within classes that do have them, romances for both genders.

 

I think that is the unresolved question I have been trying to remember to add to my list. : |

 

What if it's "Republic female SGR option is Elara Dorne. Empire female SGR option is Mako. Republic male SGR option is Theran Cedrax. Empire male SGR option is Dr. Eckard Lokin."

 

Now, I hope they don't do this. I hope they know that there will be a thousand rainbow pitchforks and torches marching down Esperanza Crossing if they do this. But until they tell us what they have in store, I live in dread of this degree of disappointment.

[Kioma]

What if it's "Republic female SGR option is Elara Dorne. Empire female SGR option is Mako. Republic male SGR option is Theran Cedrax. Empire male SGR option is Dr. Eckard Lokin."

 

It would be precisely the same as if they'd said, 'Oh, only Troopers and Sith Warriors can PvP.'

 

In short: unacceptable.