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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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Well, from the statements we got last spring it would appear that rather than "rewriting" the existing romance arcs they're going to write entirely new ones. Because they had the idea that switching pronouns is lazy and unprofessional, despite that being more or less what's done in those other two BioWare franchises.

 

I still find that comment funny since that's what they did in the entire game with male vs. female dialog.

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Pondering an idea? The poster indicated that "[They'd] like to see representation...".
Well, "I'd like to see representation of" doesn't equal "I want it in the game and you better make it tomorrow, Bioware.".

 

I know it's hard to grasp, since most often when people utter the words "I'd like to see xyz" on these boards it often enough means "I want it in now and don't care about anything or anyone else". Not in this case though.

 

As much as I'd like to delve into the topic of implementation of transgender themes or chars into SWTOR, as it would be a topic I'm certainly interested in, this would be for another thread, not this one. This is for SGR, and while we were pondering an idea and exchanging a few thoughts on that matter, it doesn't mean this should be the thread where it's gonna be discussed.

 

Feel free to open one, and I'll glady join you in discussion there.

Edited by Lent_San
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Well, from the statements we got last spring it would appear that rather than "rewriting" the existing romance arcs they're going to write entirely new ones. Because they had the idea that switching pronouns is lazy and unprofessional, despite that being more or less what's done in those other two BioWare franchises.

 

But, again, the writing shouldn't be the problem. The biggest hurdle should be paying all those voice actors to come back. That needs to happen even if they're just switching out some pronouns and most of the new dialogue is done with the core 16 voice actors. (Keep that in mind: to get one SGRA per class and gender, they'd need to work with a minimum of 32 voice actors.)

Past Bioware games do not simply switch pronouns. Usually you have different dialog/cutscenes matching the gender of the player.

If this thread is true, even the straight romances are coded rather poorly with no way to exit a once started romance arc. So it all romances are in dire need of rework.

I don´t think that the voice acting is that much of an issue. Since there is plenty of other dialog that needs to be recorded too so it would not be like bringing a voice actor back just for 15 minutes of dialog.

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I haven't posted much lately, but I have been reading.

 

I can tell you from my personal experience that a player can end the current romance. I did it with Quinn without issues ("You are no longer welcome in my bedchamber" was the basic dialog.) There was two more conversations with the [Flirt] dialog option included later, but he never treated my SW like his lady after that. That ended that arc, I'm happy to say. I didn't like the companion for several reasons.

 

Trust me, if I had been forced to stay in a relationship with Quinn, I would have cancelled my sub last March. ;)

 

I'll be posting more later. I've finished my second DA2 playthrough and I have some ideas about where the future of SGRAs could be going in ToR based upon my experiences with the Dragon Age series and the romances involved. I'm not sure when at this point. Still taking a break from a lot of this.

 

I just found out I'm gonna be an auntie again, only from my own bloodline this time. :D

 

Take care guys.

Edited by natashina
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Perhaps they're currently looking at that stage, wondering if it's too hard or not? It's a little depressing to think that they'll drop the idea of SGRA's with current companions (whether applicable retroactively or post 50) in favour of another speeder - of course continuation of current romances post 50 is going to happen with updated class stories anyway, but apparently the OGRA's were easier in the first place (and cheaper somehow? I'd really like to see the logic behind that.)

 

The logic? More lines equal more time. More time equals more money. Different lines may require different cutscenes (not sure on this one, but it's a possibility).

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Pondering an idea? The poster indicated that "[They'd] like to see representation...". I'm VERY interested in what they mean by that statement in terms of execution. Are we talking about a completely new gender class? Are we talking about removing the gender class and clothing restrictions? Are we talking about simple verbal/text acknowledgements of the existence of these groups and allowing each player to use their imagination with respect to their own (and other) characters?

 

I lack hostility on such matters, and I'm not going to apologize to anyone for jumping from pondering an idea to pondering an execution.

 

I wasn't asking for Bioware to do it in this game, as to me to do it properly one would require three stages of basic character creation, which would require an over-haul of the current system, which would not be feasible of Star Wars: The Old Republic, nor something necessarily warranted.

 

As to execution? Isn't good I have such an active imagination?

 

First Stage:

Biological Sex - Female, Male or Intersex

 

Second Stage:

Gender - Female, Male, Agender or Bigender (and perhaps Gender-fluid, but I've not done any reading on Queer Theory or Gender Studies to be able to define gender-fluid adequately)

 

Third Stage:

Gender Presentation - This is where the idea becomes more nuanced and would require more research on my part, but would cover what clothes you wear and which pronouns you prefer to be called, if that's not part of the Second Stage)

 

 

Also, gender class restrictions? There aren't any in this game - each gender can be each class. Gender clothing restrictions (and presentations) should be loosened anyway - I like the bandage effect of some of the robes that male characters get to wear, but on female characters these bandages are mysteriously absent.

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Maybe you should actually read what we were talking about. We weren't asking for anything, merely pondering an idea.

 

I also love how everybody is so worried about Bioware's 'ressources' all the time, but only when it comes to LGBT stuff.

:rolleyes:

 

That's because judging from ME3, male and male pairing was so underused by the playerbase. Do you think the majority of the playerbase want them to focus on adding it for what is basically a very small percentage of the player bases desire, when there are other things a bigger majority of the player base would use?

 

I forgot the exact percentage, but for ME3, 82-87% of the players chose male Shepard.

 

I'd love LOVE for them to add a more femine/bishi looking male body type as an option, and I'd love for them to add cross dressing for me to use along with it, but I know I'm in the minority of the playerbase for that, and while I want it, I can be honest with myself and say it'd likely be an underused option. :(

 

And I'm all for more options. Make SGR an option! I want my MMO to have so many options I can't use them all! As someone who makes characters based on actual concepts and not "It has to be me in real life or nothing" I want this!

 

But I go back to statistics and realize it's not always going to be cost effective.

 

That said, they're adding them anyways, and it's up to those in this forum to show them if it's cost effective to go back and make those changes. So play the hell out of Makeb and choose those SGR options! Get all your friends to choose them. Prove to them (playerbase and BW/EA) that it will be so worth their time and effort and will indeed show a big payoff. What would also likely help, is if those who do choose SGR options show themselves to be the biggest spendors on the Cartel Market. So do that too!

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That's because judging from ME3, male and male pairing was so underused by the playerbase. Do you think the majority of the playerbase want them to focus on adding it for what is basically a very small percentage of the player bases desire, when there are other things a bigger majority of the player base would use?
I would love to read your statistics on that.

 

But that takes us back to the chicken and egg situation. Games that are targeted at the male straight gamer will most likely have the male straight gamer as their key fanbase. As David Gaider has put it so eloquently: "Game companies should stop treating 47% of players as an added bonus".

 

I kind of dig the man.

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I would love to read your statistics on that.

 

But that takes us back to the chicken and egg situation. Games that are targeted at the male straight gamer will most likely have the male straight gamer as their key fanbase. As David Gaider has put it so eloquently: "Game companies should stop treating 47% of players as an added bonus".

 

I kind of dig the man.

 

That's the thing, if you concentrate on the "majority" because they're your typical buyers (because they've always been your typical buyers) then of course the minority isn't going to get anything and of course they'll stay the minority and eventually disappear, because they'll stop buying your product and you aren't catering to them.

 

If straight, white cis-men are the largest audience and you only target straight, white cis-men then of course only straight white cis-men are going to buy the game and everyone is a minority.

 

It's stupid to say you want a product everyone can enjoy, then only target a very narrow group.

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It's stupid to say you want a product everyone can enjoy, then only target a very narrow group.

<jumping in real quick> I'd also say that if a company wants to expand their customer base (and what company doesn't want that?) then it would behoove them to include elements that would appeal to people outside their traditional market. It makes sense, from a business perspective, to do this. Providing equal treatment in the romance options (in terms of numbers and quality) for straight female gamers and LBGTQ gamers is not just about equality, or good marketing, but also about expanding the customer base, which can have significant impacts on the bottom line.

 

I think it's very unfortunate that BW decided not to take this route to begin with. Missed a massive opportunity.

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I think it's very unfortunate that BW decided not to take this route to begin with. Missed a massive opportunity.

 

I know, right? I work in a clothing store that is fairly obviously targeted at women (our biggest department is women's clothing and there are separate departments for accessories, whereas men's and children's stuff is lumped together), but it still sells clothing for men because it's profitable.

 

It wouldn't make much sense to open a clothing store, only stock clothing for women and then wonder why men aren't shopping there. So why make a game for everyone and only target one group?

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I think I have a problem.

 

I created my (female) Sith Sorcerer with the intention of playing her as an asexual character. Then, once I'd left Korriban, I started basically roleplaying that she is in love with Lord Zash, but doesn't know how to express it. I figured betrayal is inevitable, so that could be pretty interesting. That works.

 

But now I just picked up Andronikos, and he's fantastic. (And he's Wolverine.) And... the urge to flirt with him is overwhelming. '-'

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I think I have a problem.

 

I created my (female) Sith Sorcerer with the intention of playing her as an asexual character. Then, once I'd left Korriban, I started basically roleplaying that she is in love with Lord Zash, but doesn't know how to express it. I figured betrayal is inevitable, so that could be pretty interesting. That works.

 

But now I just picked up Andronikos, and he's fantastic. (And he's Wolverine.) And... the urge to flirt with him is overwhelming. '-'

 

Nothing wrong with that - Andronikos fulfills needs that your Sorcerer has that she can't get from Lord Zash and she's just using him until something better comes along. Or is that a bit cynical of me?

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I know, right? I work in a clothing store that is fairly obviously targeted at women (our biggest department is women's clothing and there are separate departments for accessories, whereas men's and children's stuff is lumped together), but it still sells clothing for men because it's profitable.

 

It wouldn't make much sense to open a clothing store, only stock clothing for women and then wonder why men aren't shopping there. So why make a game for everyone and only target one group?

 

Using that logic. What makes you think the clothing stores that only sell women clothing are wondering "Why don't men shop here?" They don't.

 

So what makes you think the games companies are wondering the same thing?

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I think I have a problem.

 

I created my (female) Sith Sorcerer with the intention of playing her as an asexual character. Then, once I'd left Korriban, I started basically roleplaying that she is in love with Lord Zash, but doesn't know how to express it. I figured betrayal is inevitable, so that could be pretty interesting. That works.

 

But now I just picked up Andronikos, and he's fantastic. (And he's Wolverine.) And... the urge to flirt with him is overwhelming. '-'

 

She has her eyes on Zash, then Andronikus comes around, and he's so yummy and fantastic, that maybe she's wanting to see where this goes (if anywhere) untill she either decides Andronikus is the one, or that no, she'll wait untill she has the nerve (ie...it's implemented in game) or to say something or Zash (again when it's implemented in game) says something.

 

But now your post makes me want to have them make Zash become a future possible companion, even tho I think my SI is happy with Androkinus, cause I'd just like the option in there now.

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I would love to read your statistics on that.

 

But that takes us back to the chicken and egg situation. Games that are targeted at the male straight gamer will most likely have the male straight gamer as their key fanbase. As David Gaider has put it so eloquently: "Game companies should stop treating 47% of players as an added bonus".

 

I kind of dig the man.

 

ME 1 and 2 had male/female and female/female relationship option. M3 had that and male/male relationship option.

 

So, ME 1 and 2 at the least targeted every demographic for romances except gay males (untill ME3), and the player base was still 82% picking male shepard.

 

Now, if they can determine how many people selected male shepard over a female Shepard, one would think they could find out the romance options selected just as easily, and if male/male option was high on the romance option, don't you think they'd blink, go OMG, and then start cramming more of it into the game, purely for the sake of more money (which many agree the point of the cartel market is them wanting more money).

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Using that logic. What makes you think the clothing stores that only sell women clothing are wondering "Why don't men shop here?" They don't.

 

So what makes you think the games companies are wondering the same thing?

#5 on this list: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/182954/The_5_trends_that_defined_the_game_industry_in_2012.php

also

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/185157/Video_Gender_in_game_storytelling__writing_the_unsung_experiences.php

plus when I look at the lists of workshops and presentations at game developer conferences, a large number of them are about marketing to women and other minorities in the gaming community. Gaming companies are realizing that there is money to be made by including people other than the straight white male.

 

When (I'm being optimistic today) SGRAs are added, it will not just be good for equality (enough of a reason in my book anyway) but also from a business standpoint.

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#5 on this list: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/182954/The_5_trends_that_defined_the_game_industry_in_2012.php

also

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/185157/Video_Gender_in_game_storytelling__writing_the_unsung_experiences.php

plus when I look at the lists of workshops and presentations at game developer conferences, a large number of them are about marketing to women and other minorities in the gaming community. Gaming companies are realizing that there is money to be made by including people other than the straight white male.

 

When (I'm being optimistic today) SGRAs are added, it will not just be good for equality (enough of a reason in my book anyway) but also from a business standpoint.

 

Interresting read. Sorry, didn't watch the video one yet (will watch it later). But note it says "consumers speaking up with their wallets"

 

Which is something I have suggested, and posters didn't like the idea of.

 

I did the walking away from TOR when I couldn't make a Chiss Force User unless I rolled up a class I didn't want to play and get it to 50 first, I left. When all I had to do was get to level 10 to make it, I came back. So it's not like I don't take my own suggestion.

 

And I never said females weren't a majority of game players, and never said companies shouldn't do things which may be niche. But if money is a factor (which they said it was), I can understand the cut.

 

Also, it points to kick starters, I'm interrested in seeing how those projects end up in the long run. Though for big companies like BW, I'm under the impression, 3 million is considered small profits.

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I did the walking away from TOR when I couldn't make a Chiss Force User unless I rolled up a class I didn't want to play and get it to 50 first, I left. When all I had to do was get to level 10 to make it, I came back. So it's not like I don't take my own suggestion.

 

That was a mistake - I implore you, play an Imperial Agent. Of course it's a matter of taste, but the Imperial Agent storyline is considered to be by far the best, not only by myself, but many players as votes on the topic indicate.

 

Technically you can of course unlock the class by other means. I have exactly three level 50 characters - Twi'lek Consular (Infiltration Shadow), Chiss Imperial Agent (Marksmanship Sniper), Chiss Jedi Knight (Combat Sentinel).

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That was a mistake - I implore you, play an Imperial Agent. Of course it's a matter of taste, but the Imperial Agent storyline is considered to be by far the best, not only by myself, but many players as votes on the topic indicate.

 

Technically you can of course unlock the class by other means. I have exactly three level 50 characters - Twi'lek Consular (Infiltration Shadow), Chiss Imperial Agent (Marksmanship Sniper), Chiss Jedi Knight (Combat Sentinel).

 

Oh, I've started one, the leveling is extremely slow, as I've been busy with other classes. It had nothing to do with the storyline however, and more to with "This is Star Wars! I need a lightsaber! I need force powers!" :) I'm finding I don't care much for the duck and cover mechanic, but suffer through it with my Gunslinger. So, going to try Lethality Operative on my Agent. :)

 

The funny thing, after all this, so far my favorite class playstyle wise (though I quite enjoyed the storyline myself) is the Bounty Hunter.

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Greetings everyone!

 

Since this thread has reached our posting threshold and because a new title is needed for the discussion of same gender relationships we have closed it and recreated it HERE for you to continue this discussion. Please make sure to note our reminder for posting prior to replying.

 

Thank you!

Edited by JovethGonzalez
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