Same gender relationships clarifications?

[natashina]

If it was coming they would be talking about. Additionally, I'm not sure how much worse the BW-Austin group could look at this point. They might be figuring as long as they have already hit rock bottom might as well stay there.

 

Please cheer up some. I know, it's so damned hard it's not even funny. I was at that point too. That's why I'm doing the email campaign. At least we can show the world what they pulled on us. Accountability is not too much to ask at this point and that's a goal I know we'll accomplish.

 

I'm still not going to throw in the towel. There is momentum going and I see no harm in being positive with our efforts. I am still convinced that it is coming with Makeb. I still think that they are being chicken about this. I still think we're going to get an answer by just after the New Year.

 

How much worse?

 

Oooh, a lot worse. Remember, they've just angered the one player base that they were using the most to shore up their bad PR. This thing is still coming to a head, so please don't be such a naysayer. Good thoughts right now, please!

Edited December 20, 2012 by natashina

[DarthRamette]

First, great blog Joshi!

 

Evening Darth. I hope everything is going well.

 

It's because we don't have to justify why there is PvP. I don't ask why PvP should be in the game. They are for a minority of the player base but that player base considers it invaluable. As with end game PvE and the current romance options. We shouldn't have to have a justification for SGRs. There is no good reason why that they should be excluded. It should have been in from the start. It was expected of a BioWare game by that point, just as much as end-game PvE or PvP is for a MMO.

 

There is statistics that clearly state that a minority of any given MMO player base plays end-game content. Same with PvP; most often, PvP servers and content are some of the lowest pop.

 

We don't know how much of the player base would use SGRs, so that isn't fair to say a minority wants this or not. The minority is the only one that knows about this for the most part. We can safely all agree that the story is the main reason to play. So there is no way to tell who/how many players would use this content, unless BioWare quits messing around. Besides, content for the minority happens all the time, so this should be no different.

 

There are even poorer reasons why they should remain silent with Makeb coming. I don't think it's too much to ask to know if this content is even still coming at all. We know about the overall arching storyline for Makeb, so there is no excuse for BW-Austin silent at this point. If anything, the silence is making them look worse and worse.

 

Fair enough just wondering, icy flipping cold and snowy here.

[Nozybidaj]

 

Oooh, a lot worse. Remember, they've just angered the one player base that they were using the most to shore up their bad PR. This thing is still coming to a head, so please don't be such a naysayer. Good thoughts right now, please!

 

You're right, and I do hope your efforts come to some sort of conclusion, I just don't think that conclusion is going to be satisfying for anyone here. Anyway, I'll bow out now since I honestly don't have anything nice to say about it anymore. And we all know what to do when your run out of nice things to say.

[Quetzhal]

I'm going to ask this is in all seriousness but why if someone does not want a SGR in this game do they have to explain why? That person's reason are their own, you don't have to agree with them just like if you hate PvP like I do, that is all I need to say. Every person has their own area which they hate (for me PvP) and others they like (killing Pubs in every way possible). You want SGR fine and others do not. I don't get why those opposed have to say why.

 

Because it would make an absolutely pointless comment otherwise. It's like walking into a room with a bunch of people talking about football, loudly stating "I don't like football, and I think it should be banned. I won't tell you why, though." and then walking right back out.

 

All that happens is that everyone in the room stares awkwardly at the door, then shrugging and going back to talking about football.

 

...the analogy is a bit off, but the point is that there's no point making the comment at all if you don't want to state why. That's what polls are for.

[DarthRamette]

Because it would make an absolutely pointless comment otherwise. It's like walking into a room with a bunch of people talking about football, loudly stating "I don't like football, and I think it should be banned. I won't tell you why, though." and then walking right back out.

 

All that happens is that everyone in the room stares awkwardly at the door, then shrugging and going back to talking about football.

 

...the analogy is a bit off, but the point is that there's no point making the comment at all if you don't want to state why. That's what polls are for.

 

Has anyone made a poll, even an informal one here on the forums?

[natashina]

That one I can answer.

 

We tried, several times. The reaction was the more or less the same as starting a new thread is now. Locked and redirected and usually deleted. Only in the last week or so did they realize that deleting all the SGR threads outside of this one and Did I hear this right? looked awful. So they started merging threads instead.

 

If you notice, we can't even keep the suggestion for the Community Round-Up to stay on there. The first attempt was at about 11am central time. The poster that put up the suggestion for the SGRA thread was matter of fact. Nothing preachy or rude.

 

edit: I had to do some careful editing there. Beware of David Copperfield!

 

A poll would have no shot at all. Anyone feel like a woeful giggle and want to give it a go?

 

Good idea though. And yeah, Draco is here in the Rockies too. It quit snowing, but it's well below freezing and should drop to negative temps tonight.

Edited December 20, 2012 by natashina

[Kioma]

Has anyone made a poll, even an informal one here on the forums?

 

I believe polls were made back in the previous forum structure, but they got deleted (presumably because this is such a hotly-contested subject. And the current forum structure doesn't support polls.

[natashina]

I believe polls were made back in the previous forum structure, but they got deleted (presumably because this is such a hotly-contested subject. And the current forum structure doesn't support polls.

Didn't know about the new rules, but I know it had been tried before with those kinds of results. Well, there's another bit of SGRA history there folks

[Kioma]

Didn't know about the new rules, but I know it had been tried before with those kinds of results. Well, there's another bit of SGRA history there folks

 

I might be wrong but I do recall people mentioning it in the original iteration of this thread. <shrugs>

[techwitch]

Yes. I saw at least two polls go up, then fall in short order.

[natashina]

Hmm, it does look we can, actually. Unless I am overlooking something, there is nothing in the forum rules that says we can't.

Forum Guidelines

 

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Okay, I'll admit. Not brave enough to go into General tonight. Doup is working from home and would rather I not venture in there. A simple poll might do it.

 

 

• Yes
  
• No
  
• Indifferent
  

 

Then see if we can't keep this somewhat constructive. If you guys want to throw in your support, please don't just say, "SGRs!" Let them know why you want this content; because you are LGBT, because you're a roleplayer, ect.

 

And yes, for those straight male allies that want to see two girls kiss, that counts as roleplaying.

 

However, be prepared for a ton of flaming and for it to vanish. Save your posts and try to get screenshots of the thread. I figure it's worth a shot.

Edited December 20, 2012 by natashina

[Joushigun]

First, great blog Joshi!

 

 

Thank you. I will continue to build the pressure through my blog until we have an answer.

[Kioma]

Then see if we can't keep this somewhat constructive.

 

Honestly, no, it won't remain constructive; trolls will descend upon it like flies on the proverbial dog-dung. I don't think it'd even remain. I'm certain the mods would chop it off at the knees in short order.

[fabiyun]

Why would you want a poll? BW made a promise, it's up to them to keep it. And I'm not interested in the masses' answers. This is a matter of equality and inclusion, people don't have a vote on that.

[natashina]

Honestly, no, it won't remain constructive; trolls will descend upon it like flies on the proverbial dog-dung. I don't think it'd even remain. I'm certain the mods would chop it off at the knees in short order.

 

That was part of my idea though. We, as in this community, can remain civil and constructive. I'm not naive; I know the trolls won't behave. My idea was to start this thread and start grabbing screenshots. Since I do plan on continuing to contact the press, I want evidence that we are being censored. That we are being reasonable and within the forum rules and it's BW-Austin that is shutting us down. We'd also need evidence that other polls on different subjects are allowed to exist while this one was removed.

 

Direct proof would work well in our favor at this point.

[natashina]

While I'm still thinking about it, I meant to address this sooner. My apologies.

Hey everyone,

 

<trimmed for length, not for quality>

 

Reason #1: They don't want to reveal anything that they believe is a story spoiler, and they have a different definition of what a story spoiler is than we do. It's possible they have a great big manual of company policy that is difficult to change without cutting through a great deal of red tape, and that manual has a strict definition of "story spoiler" that isn't based on common sense.

 

That would make a bit of sense, but myself and others consider the so-called "Avengers" style story arc to be an even bigger spoiler than SGRs. Nevermind the details; we're still waiting on any sort of public and official announcement not buried in a PvP video that the posters had to find. That BW-Austin didn't even bother to acknowledge.

 

This next part I'm chopping up so I can address it point by point.

 

Reason #2: They want to wait until the last minute to reveal SGRA content, because they want to avoid taking preemptive flak from bigoted activist groups; it's possible they're keeping SGRA content secret until the last minute specifically to protect SGRAs - imagine if hate groups found a way to influence EA's stock price, causing investors to put pressure on EA's top management to scrap anything "controversial" - I think such a basic issue of human rights shouldn't be controversial in the first place, but EA investors might consider anything that affects stock prices to be "controversial."

 

First, they've stood up to hate groups earlier this year. Here's a link. That is just one of many articles that talk about standing their ground firmly in the face of such groups.

 

Hate groups wouldn't be able to affect EA's stock, unless they somehow became majority stockholders. EA/BW's history has had a lot of cases of being unwavering of their stance in light of such groups. Oh and those groups really tried to.

 

 

If my last sentence is true, then EA's top management is simply doing the best they can to make sure SGRAs make it into the game before EA gets targeted by hate groups. EA's top management must know that once they add SGRAs into the game, they can't remove them without taking even more flak from reasonable people, so they want to get SGRAs into the game, because they know it's the right thing to do, and they want to do it "under the radar" so the investors can't cry for their removal in the event that hate groups find a way to target EA financially.

 

There is an article published on October 15th that runs contrary to that. This was after it was known that ToR was going F2P.

 

This is from the SGRA FAQ:

 

5) Has EA's investors pressured the company to drop SGRs?

 

 

 

This is a concern that has come up from time to time in the thread. As a reponse, here's an article from October 15th explaining why this isn't so. The interview is from Ginger Maseda, EA's Global Talent Acquisition and Inclusion Leader.

 

"There have been no questions, comments or concerns raised from our investors with regards to support for LGBT initiatives in the community or having LGBT characters in our games," Maseda said, casting a net beyond DOMA and into the company's decisions to celebrate Pride Month and allow gay player characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic. "Essentially, it's been a non-issue from an investor perspective."

 

 

 

I can also tell you that more and more people are getting really angry at BW-Austin for all of this. It'll look much worse if they don't include the content at this rate. Especially with how much they love talking about their enjoyment of the inclusion of LGBT content.

 

 

If my reasoning holds true, then SGRAs are coming, and we can all rest easy about this issue. But, as I said before, I could be missing something big, and there are a bunch of posters who are active in this thread who seem to be very well versed on the details of this issue, so please correct me if I'm wrong about anything.

 

There will be no resting easy for us now that Makeb is available for pre-order. I'm personally sure they are going to be there, but there is no reason why they can't tell us if it is even coming or not. Since they expect us to buy their story update (*cough sound like something from the Guild Summit?) without knowing, I'm not going to take silence for an answer. With the change ups and realignment of BW-Austin management, the deleted Tweet, the fact that we have to take an unofficial maybe as any sort of conclusive answer, it has gone on long enough. I'm not going to bank on hope nor the word of BW-Austin from 9 months ago.

 

They want our money? We want our answer.

Edited December 20, 2012 by natashina

[HellbirdIV]

Then see if we can't keep this somewhat constructive. If you guys want to throw in your support, please don't just say, "SGRs!" Let them know why you want this content; because you are LGBT, because you're a roleplayer, ect.

 

And yes, for those straight male allies that want to see two girls kiss, that counts as roleplaying.

 

(Roleplaying reason) All the male companion characters who are romanceable by female characters are awful. Just awful. Aside from that, some characters just fit better romancing a certain companion regardless of gender.

 

(LGBT reason) I'm not LGBT but I have friends who are. The "We'll put it in, really! You know. The thing. That we won't talk about. You know. The content for those people."-type awkward silence and heavy censorship on the forum feels like an insult to them. I have a very short temper when people insult my friends, 's all.

 

Blogosphere

 

... Please never use that word again. Think of the children.

Edited December 20, 2012 by HellbirdIV

[Palar]

That would make a bit of sense, but myself and others consider the so-called "Avengers" style story arc to be an even bigger spoiler than SGRs. Nevermind the details; we're still waiting on any sort of public and official announcement not buried in a PvP video that the posters had to find. That BW-Austin didn't even bother to acknowledge.

 

Never mind anything that might be spoiled, story-wise. "Will we have to re-roll, abandon levelling characters when we hit level 10-ish and start meeting companions, or what? How will it work? Will conversations/romances be reset for people who gave up waiting and levelled to 50? Are all classes getting SGR options? Existing or future companions?"

 

As I mentioned in my (never answered) PM to Joveth and Alison, we'd be fine waiting - if we knew how to. "Refrain, Reset, or Reroll?" You'd think they could at least let us know the mechanics involved, but nothing.

 

It just leaves me hollow, seeing the incredible patience and co-operation herein getting shafted. Even without knowing that the "Y U no have 1> planet?" thread and the like will get thought-out responses to quell the moaning. We get handed off to months-old indecision from ex-employees and Gabe's video.

 

... Please never use that word again. Think of the children.

Agreed.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Palar

[Likomg]

I personally have no interest in seeing SGRs implemented; I am not, however, against it. As I would not partake of the content, it makes no difference to me whether it is implemented or not. This does not mean it should not come, as it had been said to be intended at release -- the fact that it hasn't been is unfortunate. I have a hard time believing there had been any good reason it has been bumped so long, partially due to the fact of the several companions that gain affection from courting gifts from same sex players. Malavi Quinn, for example, gains affection from courting gifts given by male players -- I suspect he had been designed bisexual from the get-go, but BW removed these storylines prior to release, for whatever reason. If this is the case, then SGRs should have been available on day 1.

 

If I am wrong in my previous statement, then I would hope that they do not waste any resources on creating them. This is not due to any offense at SGRs, but more concern about the limited development resources this game has been left with; I would rather *new* story content (specifically class story content) be developed for *all* players rather than SGR story content for the likely few players (in comparison). I'm not intending to get the Makeb "expansion" simply due to the fact that class storylines aren't continued -- let's be honest, it is the only aspect of this game (beyond the license, itself) that is really strong. While I enjoy the gameplay and such, the mmo aspects feel tacked on rather than an integral part of the game.

 

Getting frustrated over the lack of response is understandable, as well, but overreacting (claims that deleted posts are harrassment, bad analogies to the lack of SGRs being the same as a lack of multiplayer in a 1st person shooter that is known primarily for its multiplayers component, etc) do more harm than good, imo. I suspect polls will continue to be deleted, as many MMOs seem to dislike player made polls in their forums; I don't doubt that BW would argue it is politcal (or sexual, though LGBT is more than just about sex, despite what some individuals might try to argue), which the code of conduct that was posted claims is not allowed.Keep a level head; Natashina, yours has been particularly admirable

 

There is absolutely no excuse for the lack of a response from BW and for much of their behavior regarding the subject. I fear, at this point, that the pressure doesn't bother them so much; they figure the game has been sliding downhill so quickly that bad press won't have any real impact on this game's continued profitability and they will just ride it out.

 

Good luck, if nothing else, I do hope they at least acknowledge your concerns with an actual answer, whether positive or not

Edited December 20, 2012 by Likomg

[natashina]

(Roleplaying reason) All the male companion characters who are romanceable by female characters are awful. Just awful.

 

(LGBT reason) I'm not LGBT but I have friends who are. The "We'll put it in, really! You know. The thing. That we won't talk about. You know. The content for those people."-type awkward silence and heavy censorship on the forum feels like an insult to them. I have a very short temper when people insult my friends, 's all.

 

I was thinking if anyone was daring enough to try that in General forums. Start a poll, since it isn't against the forum rules. Make sure that we get screenshots of saying things just like that and before the thread is deleted. Discrimination has finally showed the ugly face we've gotten to see for awhile.

 

 

 

... Please never use that word again. Think of the children.

 

Hey, don't look at me! Joshi used it first and she is an experienced blogger.

 

She also did a couple of excellent pieces about this whole SGR debacle. They are well worth the gander.

 

Her first one, talking about the thread and our treatment by EA/BW

 

Here's the other one mentioning that we've gone to GLAAD.

 

 

So that's why I used the word Blogosphere. When it comes to this game, there is no thinking about the children. It's a T for Teen game.

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist being a wise guy there.

Edited December 20, 2012 by natashina

[Palar]

I personally have no interest in seeing SGRs implemented; I am not, however, against it. As I would not partake of the content, it makes no difference to me whether it is implemented or not. This does not mean it should not come, as it had been said to be intended at release -- the fact that it hasn't been is unfortunate. I have a hard time believing there had been any good reason it has been bumped so long, partially due to the fact of the several companions that gain affection from courting gifts from same sex players. Malavi Quinn, for example, gains affection from courting gifts given by male players -- I suspect he had been designed bisexual from the get-go, but BW removed these storylines prior to release, for whatever reason. If this is the case, then SGRs should have been available on day 1.

 

"In for a penny, in for a pound", ultimately. Especially since the pound has been gathering interest, and dust, in some forgotten piggy-bank at Austin.

 

If I am wrong in my previous statement, then I would hope that they do not waste any resources on creating them. This is not due to any offense at SGRs, but more concern about the limited development resources this game has been left with; I would rather *new* story content (specifically class story content) be developed for *all* players rather than SGR story content for the likely few players (in comparison).

 

Fair enough - certain things need prioritising... they should at least keep us in the loop. We've heard nothing, not even a "oops, 'This year' was unable to be met. We're still working on it, though. Hang in there."

 

Good luck, if nothing else, I do hope they at least acknowledge your concerns with an actual answer, whether positive or not

 

Thanks... I'd certainly appreciate one, regardless of what it is.

[Joushigun]

... Please never use that word again. Think of the children.

 

I know you're joking, kind of, but that really is what the thing is called.

[natashina]

I'm going to say this. This isn't meant to offend anyone that enjoys other forms of contet, but I do have some points.

 

Edit: I mean a sincere thank you for the support, no matter what!!! I need to make that very clear. None of us could do what we do without all kinds of support. I apologize if I seem rude or attacking anyone. I assure you all it is not my goal.

 

This is what happens when a LS Sith gets grumpy. After the podcast, apparently this is a sore spot for me.

 

Heart of a Jedi, passions and temper of a Sith.

 

 

It's not so much anyone in this thread at all, including the supporters saying hello, but I'm tired of hearing the words, "wasting resources" floating about freaking everywhere as an excuse to exclude this content.

 

The use of the word "you" is a general term.

 

Show me where I said it should come before game breaking bug fixes. Show me where anyone in this community said this. Myself and others have stated time and time again that we want bug fixes to happen. Link the post please; I'm not going to go by a quote on this one.

 

Links or it didn't happen.

 

Show me where it is stated that the writing team, the PvP team, the animation team and the bug fix team happen to all share team members and they can't work on multiple things at once.

 

I'll start this just from a feature perspective alone:

 

A minority amount of players use end-game PvE. So I guess that's resources wasted, right? I mean after all, not a lot of people want this content, right? I enjoy Ops, but that doesn't make me a majority.

 

A minority amount of players play PvP right? So I guess that's resources wasted too. After, most of a MMO playerbase does not PvP. Oh and PvP servers are a waste too, right? Most MMOs lowest population servers are PvP, so no point there?

 

I don't go into a thread and tell them that they are wasting their time developing this content. That is rude.

 

I hope you're mad that they are using precious resources for chat bubbles. Or that they are using resources to work on hood toggles.

 

So the majority vs minority argument really has no weight.

 

If anyone honestly thinks that they deliberately wasted writing on Makeb just because of SGRs, then I think they are very mistaken. I don't think a continuation of class story was intended at any point for this story update. SGRs or not. To imply as such seems quite erroneous.

 

If they want us to pre-order Makeb...you know, the story update...then they need to come clean. This isn't overreaching at this point. We have a right to know if this is coming. They want our money? We want an answer.

 

Edit #2: Rant about some of the thread here. Took it down to cover my butt.

 

Any and all threads are shut down and redirected to only one of two places.

 

Please don't even try to invoke the "no multiple threads," nonsense. Read the General forums anytime, and you'll see a bunch of multiple threads on all kinds of other topics. The hottest one of which is a lot of the Life Day/Cartel Shop items. Go count the number of threads that are not locked and redirected to only two areas.

 

For the record, I do think some of the Cartel Shop problem is just that: a legitimate problem. So I'm not saying our content is better, but it is as game breaking for some of the players in the LGBTQ community.

 

Why is that okay? Why is the rules not enforced for everyone, for every thread? How should this be any different?

 

So that is some of the reasons why this email campaign took place. They talk publicly about how much they love giving the LGBT community game content. EA straight up let the idea that ToR already had SGRs in it get published. Go look at the linked October 15th article and take a look at that correction notice at the bottom. Actually read the whole article if you really want to know what EA claims to think about this content.

 

We had to write to the editor to get a big assumption changed.

 

They had a picture of ToR that said very clearly, "Same gender romances are a staple of EA games such as Star Wars: The Old Republic." They took that down and replaced it with a shot from ME3 after we wrote in, using slightly different font.

 

So if EA/BW wants to claim they find it worth their time, then it obviously isn't a waste to them. They need to quit doing pro LGBTQ articles if they think it's a waste of time. We went to GLAAD because that article hit, then they ignored us at the Livestream, and now they are not enforcing certain forum rules for everyone. Just us.

Edited December 20, 2012 by natashina

[Likomg]

Assuming that was directed at me, Nat, I was not saying that all resources are bundled together in one team or that you, or anyone else, said that SGRs should come before bug fixes, etc. All I was saying is that if, and only if, they have not already done the SGR storyline (and I assume they likely have and they should be implemented sooner, rather than later), then they should not have the storywriting team (which I would assume to include the same devs / writers of both SGR and class content) begin work on SGR story content over new class story content, as the latter would benefit everyone that enjoys the game primarily for the story. Not arguing for pvp, raids, bugfixes, etc over SGRs.

 

Not sure what I said that would give you the idea that I said that or cause such anger in response to my post.

 

Regardless, good luck getting an answer from them, either way. As sad a state as their CS is in, the likelihood of such a courtesy seems unlikely to come from them.

[natashina]

PS: One final thought and then I'm off to go play DA: O

 

You is still a general term, but I am venting some.

 

You're okay Lik, I'm just a little worn out from this well meaning meaning side of things.

 

I don't still see why it's considered that the writing team is "wasting" time on SGRs by working on them. That is still pretty wrong to me. It's a waste to write for the LGBT community?

 

I'm betting they are already working on new class content for quite some time, we just haven't seen it yet. At least they were smart enough not to talk about it in advance this time.

 

Why can't they work on both SGRs and class expansions at the same time? Just because Makeb isn't coming with them, it doesn't mean that they excluded class story expansions for this. I'll say again that I don't think at any point in time was Makeb going to have expansions for class stories, whether SGRs are coming or not.

 

Why would they just have to focus on one aspect of the story at once?

 

Why would they only work on one thing at a time storywise????

 

Makes no sense if you want anything resembling a lead time.

 

I know what some of you are thinking. "But but...PvP and end game PvE are expected of a MMO."

 

Same gender romance was expected of a BioWare game as well.

 

Is it because PvE and PvP are more mainstream?

 

Lest we forget, EA/BW promised us this content. If they want to take it out, then they should just say so and be done with it once and for all. If it is coming in, then the LGBT player base would like to know before they spend their money.

 

A direct, public, concrete answer acknowledged at this point is what we ask. Personally, I'd like it coming right out of Hickman's mouth, but I will take a high level current employee talking openly about it too.

 

Let's put aside GLAAD for a second. The members of the press did not have any idea that GLAAD had been contacted when I sent out those letters. I wanted the press to take a look at the facts at hand without any outside influences tainting their views.

 

If no one likes it, thinks we're wasting our time/their time, or just are flat out anti-SGR, go on ahead and write to news sites why you think it's a waste. Make sure you provide 9 months of community research to back up your point. Stuff that is easily checked by an fact checker, with trust worthy links.

 

Be pro-active like we did. Oh and yes, that FAQ has got several months of research behind it.

 

Also, make sure you take the time to write a well thought out letter too. And send it off to several websites. Also, make sure the other people that don't want this content do their part.

 

I'll bet you won't. I bet you wouldn't even think of such a thing. Most people would just sit in the forums, complain and not try to do something.

 

GLAAD got involved as it became apparent that not only was EA/BW being two faced, but some of their forum rules applied to only us and not others.

 

I consider talking about loving a minority loudly in the press while ignoring a part of that minority to be very wrong. As far as I'm considered, that's just lying.

 

If they "love" including this content so much, they should have no shame in telling the players.

 

Again, I'm not directing this towards anyone. I'm venting after weeks of reading that. Please don't take it personally!

Edited December 20, 2012 by natashina