1.3: Nerf -6% all melee damage for Guardians pvp tanks... why?

[sauerkraut]

I agree with this change.

 

There are a ton of Juggs on my server who run full rage spec but stay in soresu form all the time, to get the 50% + damage reduction. These guys can still drop 6k smashes, while keeping tank survivability.

 

Just as the Carolina parakeet was nerfed, and the darkness madness hybrid, I believe that you shouldnt be able so so easily get tank damage reduction while in a dps build.

 

Just my 2 cents/

 

Another clueless reb, Soresu form gives you +60% armor RATING, not damage reduction. HUGE different.

[azelmkII]

In soresu form you get 50 - 55% passive mitigation.

 

That's 30% more than medium armor.

 

30% is not a small difference.

 

You need 5k armor + command talent to get 53% mitigation, and medium armor with same armor rating gets 25~27% mitigation.

So the max difference is 26~28%, and there is focus penalty of soresu...

 

A hybrid/full vig Guardian suffer full penalty, dps is reduced.

A full defense Guardian has lower mitigation (-4%)and lowest dps (will go lower in 1.3).

 

Well I think switching from Shien to Soresu already lost a lot dps, but devs don't think so, obviously.

[kweassa]

i keep my healers alive just fine with my firebug (pyropt) just taunt and nuke them down faster then any tank can

and im getting tired of those 41984091094+012 tanks running around every match doing 200k less dmg then me and dont get any freaking protection points

 

And that's exactly the reason why the damage is being nerfed.

 

Thank you for clarifying the point to everyone.

[kweassa]

Another clueless reb, Soresu form gives you +60% armor RATING, not damage reduction. HUGE different.

 

Soresu gives you a flat 6% damage mitigation to all attacks. It's the only source of protection against elemental/internal damage a defense guardian can get before going tier6 into Defense tree (requiring a total of 27points invested into the tree)... and for that you get a bloody 4% increase.

 

With Commanding Awe, a Vigilance Guardian with infinitely higher DPS capacity gets 15% flat mitigation against all damage increase upon activation. A marauder/sentinel, usually has around 20~28% lower mitigation than a defense guardian. Upon the activation of CoP/Rebuke, the difference is practically gone, and they have twice the mitigation against elemental/internal.

 

 

So yes, we who use a skill tree named "Defense", actually do not have much defense except a bit higher defense/shield rating. So unless these specific stats start meaning something, we remain an endangered species.

 

That's the reason I'm supporting these changes - despite it makes us even weaker in damage, we still hope that the changes to the relics (2 x +113 Defense Rating), changes to Single Saber Mastery(permanent +3% increase in our defense rating), a new skill that lowers accuracy (presumably by another 5%)... would work a long way to help our investments into defense actually matter.

 

I've got a lot of extra gear puchased, and just waiting to pull out defense rating mod/enhancements. If 1.3 actually helps defense, then I'm willing to start switching those components to achieve at least 40% defense chance.

Edited June 15, 2012 by kweassa

[Meltheran]

And that's exactly the reason why the damage is being nerfed.

 

Thank you for clarifying the point to everyone.

 

Firebug damage is not being affected by the tank changes. The only change that will hurt them is the change to relics and adrenals.

 

The problem with these changes is that tanks will not be putting any pressure on the opposing team. Meaning all we will be is health batteries for our guard targets. That may seem fine to some folks, but I think it is going to be insanely boring.

[karnyboy]

Soon you will see no one guardian, who will save your healer alive under guard...

 

You can still play defense.....why does everyone have to be the blender that chews up the player, guard your healer, and leave the DPS to the actual DPS....In the end you both come out winners (winning a WZ)

 

 

Man, everyone wants the spotlight, they need to implement roles again into PvP.

[FalcoLombardi]

If you think about it, 6% isn't a whole lot. Every 100 damage you lose 6. So instead of hitting for 1000 your hit for 940. Though the damage nerf to Crushing Blow is probably gonna hurt, but it's an AoE now and will be even better for PvE too.

 

So instead of a 6% damage boost we get a permanent 3% defense chance boost, and it's easier to maintain Blade Barricade

[Zbus]

You can still play defense.....why does everyone have to be the blender that chews up the player, guard your healer, and leave the DPS to the actual DPS....In the end you both come out winners (winning a WZ)

 

 

Man, everyone wants the spotlight, they need to implement roles again into PvP.

 

Cool that means we can look forward to other classes getting the defensive CD's removed we can start with Mara/Sent's because they are DPS and really shouldnt have tank damage reduction ablities. In other words leave the tanking to the tank class.

[Philosomanic]

^ This.

Was +6% damage by 3 points for all forms. Tier 1 Vigilance tree.

 

 

 

^ and this. Before 1.3 it was 2% for each point. Tier 3 Defence tree.

 

So, for pure PVP tanks under Soresu, and for Soresu/Vigilance hybrids (like my 16/25/0) with these changes we still have our +6% defence with Riposte, but we loss +6% damage from Tier 1 Vigilance tree. Its -6% nerf to all melee damage.

 

Why, Bioware? Why? Our crappy low damage now will be laughable crap in PVP. Oh, wait, all that changes with increasing threat generation probably pretty good for PVE, but for PVP Guardian tanks -6% of all melee damage looks strong nerf.

 

Bioware, why you so hate classic looks single-lightsaber jedi knights?

 

 

All tanks are getting nerfed hard for PvP.

 

Vanguards are losing 14% crit chance and 30% crit multiplier on a skill that makes up 25-33% of our damage. With a lucky proc, we could use that skill back-to-back, so this is really hurting our single-target and burst damage. Our sustained single target is down 4-5% (by my math), but our burst has been cut way down.

 

Shadows are keeping their damage, but losing a ton of defenses. Their passive armor increase is going from +150% to +115%, and they're losing roughly 40% of their self-healing.

 

I'm not exactly happy about these changes either (I'm a VG Tank), but I kinda have to admit that it's necessary. My role should be support, and that's how I play it. However, I could win many 1v1s pretty easily, especially against Marauders, Juggernauts, and Snipers. Shields are ultra-powerful against them. On the other hand, it looks like VG and Guardian tanks are getting much more AoE damage and debuff ability, so though we'll be weaker in 1v1s we'll be better at applying pressure and supporting our team.

[RUDI]

All tanks are getting nerfed hard for PvP.

 

Vanguards are losing 14% crit chance and 30% crit multiplier on a skill that makes up 25-33% of our damage. With a lucky proc, we could use that skill back-to-back, so this is really hurting our single-target and burst damage. Our sustained single target is down 4-5% (by my math), but our burst has been cut way down.

 

Shadows are keeping their damage, but losing a ton of defenses. Their passive armor increase is going from +150% to +115%, and they're losing roughly 40% of their self-healing.

 

I'm not exactly happy about these changes either (I'm a VG Tank), but I kinda have to admit that it's necessary. My role should be support, and that's how I play it. However, I could win many 1v1s pretty easily, especially against Marauders, Juggernauts, and Snipers. Shields are ultra-powerful against them. On the other hand, it looks like VG and Guardian tanks are getting much more AoE damage and debuff ability, so though we'll be weaker in 1v1s we'll be better at applying pressure and supporting our team.

 

The problem is that guardian defensive stance give us debuff on resource generation on top of lowest tank damage. Vanguards dont have debuff, but even damage proc, sins got debuff 5% melee damage which is not critical, because most damage is done via force skills and damage + healing proc.

[Zbus]

All tanks are getting nerfed hard for PvP.

 

Vanguards are losing 14% crit chance and 30% crit multiplier on a skill that makes up 25-33% of our damage. With a lucky proc, we could use that skill back-to-back, so this is really hurting our single-target and burst damage. Our sustained single target is down 4-5% (by my math), but our burst has been cut way down.

 

Shadows are keeping their damage, but losing a ton of defenses. Their passive armor increase is going from +150% to +115%, and they're losing roughly 40% of their self-healing.

 

I'm not exactly happy about these changes either (I'm a VG Tank), but I kinda have to admit that it's necessary. My role should be support, and that's how I play it. However, I could win many 1v1s pretty easily, especially against Marauders, Juggernauts, and Snipers. Shields are ultra-powerful against them. On the other hand, it looks like VG and Guardian tanks are getting much more AoE damage and debuff ability, so though we'll be weaker in 1v1s we'll be better at applying pressure and supporting our team.

 

Umm no you will have a higher end game damage output on scoreboard but your overall effectiveness when trying to pressure any single target while peeling will go down. Simple rule for PVP is that single target dps trumps AOE anything. The word focus fire comes from this concept.

 

Funny part is this will not hurt the DPS tanks it will hurt the super commando guys whos damage is poor anyway. The DPS guys will go tactics or assault with ion cell loaded and because the damage to those specs dont rely on SS/RP they will be just as effective plus they already have the gear for it. /shrug BW did nothing with this nerf they didnt correct the tanks stats/shield/armor mitigation issue and they didnt kill DPS tanks cause the guys will just change specs and then run ion cell and end end up with even more damage.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Zbus

[Siorac]

Slightly unrelated but a lot of people here say that they are full Vengeance/Vigilance, running in Soresu... how?

 

That's basically gimping your damage for a bit higher survivability against some attack and damage types. I once tried to offtank the Heavy Fabricator in KP in Soresu form, it was brutal, I had to spam Strike all the time to squeeze out some Focus... in the end I just asked the healers to pay extra attention to me when it's my turn to taunt the droid and switched back to Shien form. We could also beat the enrage timer that way because, y'know, I was actually doing damage.

 

I tried PvP in Soresu form but I hit like a wet noodle with a relatively insignificant increase in survivability. Soresu gimps Focus generation; all the main abilities of Vigilance eat up Focus.

[QuiQuaeQuod]

Whilst I welcome more defence % for Soresu (which is what Soresu is all about in SW), the overall nerf is annoying.

 

+3% deflect, +3% damage would have been agreeable. Totally slashing all the damage is just crazy, Guardian Tanks hardly put out too much damage in PvP.

 

Nerfing the riposte bonus is also completely out of order; makes this no actual increase in defence and a pure slash, just slightly easier to maintain the defence in return for a complete damage slash.

 

 

Terrible decision.

Edited June 15, 2012 by QuiQuaeQuod

[stringcat]

Not solely CD's, but marksmen get 'siege bunker' to reduce AOE damage by 60%

 

I've never known a sniper to take it, AND you have to be entrenched, which IS a cooldown, in fact.

 

 

, and engineers can talent to both significantly boost their shield probe's power and reduce its CD instantly upon activation of EMP discharge, as well as talenting a flat damage reduction when in cover and reducing the CD of ballistic shields (an amazing AOE defensive CD).

 

Which gets you focused to nothing flat in PvP. Shield Probe absorbs 1k damage or so at lvl 50. Oooh, engineers spec it to 1300! Big whoop.

[AKfourtyseven]

Slightly unrelated but a lot of people here say that they are full Vengeance/Vigilance, running in Soresu... how?

 

That's basically gimping your damage for a bit higher survivability against some attack and damage types. I once tried to offtank the Heavy Fabricator in KP in Soresu form, it was brutal, I had to spam Strike all the time to squeeze out some Focus... in the end I just asked the healers to pay extra attention to me when it's my turn to taunt the droid and switched back to Shien form. We could also beat the enrage timer that way because, y'know, I was actually doing damage.

 

I tried PvP in Soresu form but I hit like a wet noodle with a relatively insignificant increase in survivability. Soresu gimps Focus generation; all the main abilities of Vigilance eat up Focus.

 

You must be undergeared.

 

Im full Vig and run in tank stance. I have never, ever had focus issues in PvP and my damage is far from gimped, I can hit 5k crits with my single target abilities (but on full geared people it tends to be 4.8/4.9k). The increase in survival is huge jumping from 35% to 53% armour and the damage reduction is rather small considering what it offers:

 

Yeah you may drop from 400k damage to 300k in a wz but you are gaining 150-200k protection potential which when added together makes you more valuable.

[Philosomanic]

The problem is that guardian defensive stance give us debuff on resource generation on top of lowest tank damage. Vanguards dont have debuff, but even damage proc, sins got debuff 5% melee damage which is not critical, because most damage is done via force skills and damage + healing proc.

 

We don't get debuffed resource regen, but the end result is the same. Our DPS specs rely on their stances for resource regen, and as tanks we don't get those bonuses. You start out with good regen, and tank stance lowers it. We start out with bad regen, and tank stance doesn't raise it.

 

Additionally. a large part of our resource regeneration (21.7%) is reliant on shielding attacks, which really hurts for PvP. Shadows just get a straight regeneration rate, and you get resources from attacking. This means that resource regeneration is 100% under your control for Shadows/Guardians, but Vanguards have to shield an attack every 6s to be at their peak performance.

 

Also, Vanguards are balanced around us always having a stance on. One DPS stance gives a proc for 1k elemental damage, and the other gives +8% internal/elemental damage. Our tank stance proc is ~200 energy damage, with another 200 over 9s, and it procs every 5s or so. Clearly the worst of the three stances for us.

[Siorac]

You must be undergeared.

 

Im full Vig and run in tank stance. I have never, ever had focus issues in PvP and my damage is far from gimped, I can hit 5k crits with my single target abilities (but on full geared people it tends to be 4.8/4.9k). The increase in survival is huge jumping from 35% to 53% armour and the damage reduction is rather small considering what it offers:

 

Yeah you may drop from 400k damage to 300k in a wz but you are gaining 150-200k protection potential which when added together makes you more valuable.

 

Focus issues have nothing to do with gear. And because of them it's simply pure frustration to play Vig Guardian in Soresu, there's nothing even remotely fun about it.

 

Blade Storm costs 4 Focus, Overhead Slash costs 4 Focus, Plasma Brand costs 5! With Soresu's Focus generation these numbers are just way too high; Vigilance DPS is very much reliant on Shien generating Focus like a nuclear reactor. I hate spamming Strike and though the Vindicator set bonus (with the reduction of Saber Throw's minimum range) alleviates some of the problem, it's still a very real one.

 

Dunno, I guess I like being a pure DPS in Warzones and don't want to be a hybrid who's OK at tanking and OK at DPSing.