More Gunnery nerfs on Test...

[Yurie]

Havent played for a couple of months but have been viewing the forums from time to time

 

This patch will put the nail in the coffin for the few gunnery commandos left

 

1. Still no change to survivability against melee, no change to constantly beeing interupted, or otherwise getting your skills chain interupted by other kinds of cc.

 

2. Still no escape abilities to get away from melee, once you get a melee player on your, their on you until either one of you are dead, 90% of the time its you.

 

3. You dont have to use as many GR now to use HiB and Demo round? sounds nice, only that HiB and Demo costs alot of ammo and youll run out of ammo fast if you use it more often, most player used 3 attacks anyways.

 

4. Burst was the only way to kill anything as a Gunnery commando in PvP, with the nerfs to adrenals and artifacts, well have even less chance to kill someone.

 

5. No nerfs at all to marauders, powertechs, game over

 

This, pretty much. Exept part 3, 3 gravity rounds allready give you 5 stack of gravity vortex for demo round but after 1.3 you dont need to shoot another 2 GR to get charged barrel/barrier to 5 stack.

 

Sentinels and vanguards will still do more damage than us and we still cant kill any other classes than non-healer sorcs.

[Fhrosty]

Exept part 3, 3 gravity rounds allready give you 5 stack of gravity vortex for demo round but after 1.3 you dont need to shoot another 2 GR to get charged barrel/barrier to 5 stack.

 

What he said, plus HiB doesn't cost that much. In fact, with certain talents/gear, it costs nothing.

 

Granted, I'm not defending all the changes; just clarifying this one point.

[Boxer]

Lets say Grav Round takes you 1.4 seconds to shoot.

That means when your 3 second time is up, on avg you are .7 seconds left before your next shot.

Also assume a 66% crit rate on grav round. So, 1/3rd of the time you have to wait at least another 1.4 seconds, and you may not crit then either..

So skipping the exact math on missing several crits, you get one ammo back every 4.4 seconds, and that's just spamming grav round. Of course, if you did just spam grav round you'd spend 6.3 ammo in that time, and your normal regen would not make up for that even with the +1 every 4.3 seconds.

 

Mixing in the slower Full Auto, the less likely to crit Demo Round, HiB that can't regen ammo, any AoE skill, any movement, any hammer shot due to low ammo, and I would think the mean time to ammo regen would easily be more than 1 per 6 seconds.

 

I think this a debuff to people who look at the best case, short term situation but a nice buff to reality.

[DarkSideTOR]

I'd like to test the Cell Charger changes first. All these changes seem to heavily favor PVE over PVP. More reliable ammo regen, I still think crits from rounds giving ammo back is better, but like I said I haven't tested it yet.

 

Increased armor penetration from Assault Specialist is nice, but they still did not address the vulnerability to interrupts in Gunnery... this spec requires you to be a turret for most of your heavy attacks and yet we have no interrupt protection. Having played a Sniper alt I'm shocked to see how much BASELINE protection they have against this.

 

Snipers are meant to be stationary dps machines so they have interrupt immunities, knockbacks, interrupts, roots, chance of making channeled attacks instant, guaranteed crits on demand, protection from CCs, jumps, etc. Basically all the abilities you need to give increased survivability to a stationary target. Gunnery commandos are meant to be played in a similar style and yet we have far fewer abilities to allow us to do so.

Edited June 7, 2012 by DarkSideTOR

[Boxer]

I think that Cell Charger changes are a nerf to burst output since under burst conditions you would gain back more ammo and be able to burst a little longer, but does allow you to burst more safely because if you do burst, it should allow you to regen your ammo significantly more quickly since the lower regen and reduced skill activation doesn't decrease the regen.

 

I think for PvP, it probably ends up being a good thing when you're sniping, being able to recover from a burst more quickly, but bad if you're being attacked because recovery speed doesn't mean anything if you're dead.

 

For PvE, recovery speed matters sometimes, but not often since there are fewer burst opportunities and more sustained. However, i still think that adding up all the factors in PvE means we're still better off.

[AmorphousCro]

It's a buff overall.

 

Here's my problem. They cut us off at the knees in 1.2. This 1.3 buff gives us a sheet of cardboard to kneel our bloody stumps on so we feel taller.

 

Anyone defending the substance of this buff comes off sounding like slavering toady. It's not enough. It's a confirmation that they cut too deep, but don't want to openly admit it. With this buff, we are being given a dismissive handwave.

 

In defense of other classes like guardians and juggernauts who were underperforming at tanking: they got a threat buff to make up for poor design, but a damage nerf to balance it out. Why?

 

If the BioWare balance team was a muffler shop, they'd fix your muffler then cut your brake lines.

[rsomazzi]

Gunnery

Cell Charger has been redesigned. While Armor-Piercing Cell is active, there is a 50% chance to generate 1 Energy Cell every 6 seconds.

- It is currently every 3 seconds to generate 1 Energy cell.

 

Gravity Surge now additionally grants an extra stack of Charged Barrel and Charged Barrier, if applicable, with each Grav Round fired.

- This is an extra stacking of Charged Barrel per Grav Round completed, so will stack 2 Charged Barrel per Grav Round instead of just one. Helps a little...

 

Heavy Trooper now increases healing received by 1% per point (down from 3%).

- Not ground breaking but still...

 

Of course things can always change on test, I doubt drastically though...

 

Honestly, I don't get how you folks continue. You can't fix huge design flaws in a game like SWTOR without long, painful periods where people unsub while you scramble to put in code that should have been in all along. Server merging, cross server queuing should have been ready to go months ago and BW is obviously reacting in knee jerk fashion to people jumping ship.

 

1.3 notes come along, and I see these Commando changes. WoW, underwhelming is a good word. Stupid and useless come to mind as well. As long as a PURE DPS class can't out-dps NON DPS roles, you have a huge problem on your hands. BW doesn't know class balance, server balance, or how to construct truly engaging PvP environments if it walked up and slapped them all on the faces. They close the Ilum ride because it was beyond craptastic. My server pop goes from heavy to dead in a matter of weeks. As of 1.3, you still have the same 4 boring pvp shoeboxes and little else to do.

 

What a @#$%ed state this game is in. I am surprised they haven't packed it in and laid everyone off.

[Luceon]

Honestly, I don't get how you folks continue. You can't fix huge design flaws in a game like SWTOR without long, painful periods where people unsub while you scramble to put in code that should have been in all along. Server merging, cross server queuing should have been ready to go months ago and BW is obviously reacting in knee jerk fashion to people jumping ship.

 

1.3 notes come along, and I see these Commando changes. WoW, underwhelming is a good word. Stupid and useless come to mind as well. As long as a PURE DPS class can't out-dps NON DPS roles, you have a huge problem on your hands. BW doesn't know class balance, server balance, or how to construct truly engaging PvP environments if it walked up and slapped them all on the faces. They close the Ilum ride because it was beyond craptastic. My server pop goes from heavy to dead in a matter of weeks. As of 1.3, you still have the same 4 boring pvp shoeboxes and little else to do.

 

What a @#$%ed state this game is in. I am surprised they haven't packed it in and laid everyone off.

 

Agreed. Not only to add that BW (or EA, I do not know who decided on this decision) refuse to at least acknowledge some of the faults. I understand going outright saying "we F'ed up" tends to be bad for sales, however here we stand watching BW screw up again and again, we are not morons and we can see a F up when it happens (we play this game just about as much as they are working on it, I mean come on it is outright foolish to think they can sneak in changes, which they have tried). This silence is golden policy is just adding more water to the ship.

[TUXs]

Honestly, I don't get how you folks continue. You can't fix huge design flaws in a game like SWTOR without long, painful periods where people unsub while you scramble to put in code that should have been in all along. Server merging, cross server queuing should have been ready to go months ago and BW is obviously reacting in knee jerk fashion to people jumping ship.

 

1.3 notes come along, and I see these Commando changes. WoW, underwhelming is a good word. Stupid and useless come to mind as well. As long as a PURE DPS class can't out-dps NON DPS roles, you have a huge problem on your hands. BW doesn't know class balance, server balance, or how to construct truly engaging PvP environments if it walked up and slapped them all on the faces. They close the Ilum ride because it was beyond craptastic. My server pop goes from heavy to dead in a matter of weeks. As of 1.3, you still have the same 4 boring pvp shoeboxes and little else to do.

 

What a @#$%ed state this game is in. I am surprised they haven't packed it in and laid everyone off.

 

Yeah, great post! Fully agree.

[SvnStrSlm]

Honestly, I don't get how you folks continue. You can't fix huge design flaws in a game like SWTOR without long, painful periods where people unsub while you scramble to put in code that should have been in all along. Server merging, cross server queuing should have been ready to go months ago and BW is obviously reacting in knee jerk fashion to people jumping ship.

 

1.3 notes come along, and I see these Commando changes. WoW, underwhelming is a good word. Stupid and useless come to mind as well. As long as a PURE DPS class can't out-dps NON DPS roles, you have a huge problem on your hands. BW doesn't know class balance, server balance, or how to construct truly engaging PvP environments if it walked up and slapped them all on the faces. They close the Ilum ride because it was beyond craptastic. My server pop goes from heavy to dead in a matter of weeks. As of 1.3, you still have the same 4 boring pvp shoeboxes and little else to do.

 

What a @#$%ed state this game is in. I am surprised they haven't packed it in and laid everyone off.

 

Its actually pretty easy. I find PVE fun, I have a good guild of casual and relatively sane people, I play gunnery commando and infiltration shadow in PVP and do very well. The real question is how you can continue to post and trash talk a game that you clearly don't like. Its like you have nothing better to do. Do you do this for all your games you dont like? People need to take a step back and realize SWTOR is what it is. If thats not enough then don't play. Its pretty simple. When you buy a car do you call and complain it doesnt have certain features? No, you either don't buy it or use the 30 day return policy most dealers have. At least in michigan we have that.

[Maginor]

Its actually pretty easy. I find PVE fun, I have a good guild of casual and relatively sane people, I play gunnery commando and infiltration shadow in PVP and do very well. The real question is how you can continue to post and trash talk a game that you clearly don't like. Its like you have nothing better to do. Do you do this for all your games you dont like? People need to take a step back and realize SWTOR is what it is. If thats not enough then don't play. Its pretty simple. When you buy a car do you call and complain it doesnt have certain features? No, you either don't buy it or use the 30 day return policy most dealers have. At least in michigan we have that.

 

How dare people make awesome suggestions that are completely ignored to improve this game, and make it the best it can be. Sorry, not everyone is fine with table scraps like you.

[MGNMTTRN]

I was mad about the "nerf" too, but it turns out to be a significant buff.

 

Link to torparse on Master Gnost-Dural: http://www.torparse.com/a/48712

Important information: I had a 0.49% miss chance, all of them being misses with Hammer Shots. DPS was 1068.04, when including the lost DPS during combat drop. Estimated lost DPS from misses was 5.21.

Link to torparse on Public Test Server: http://www.torparse.com/a/48731

Important information: 2.92% miss chance overall, and 3.93% miss chance with Full Auto. DPS was 1103.38, when including the lost DPS during combat drop. Estimated lost DPS from misses was 105.47.

 

Conditions: companion dismissed, all buffs dismissed except Fortitude, Sprint, and AP Cell. Both tests were performed while wearing the same armor: Rakata Combat Tech head, Rakata Eliminator gloves and chest, Rakata Combat Medic legs, Black Hole medic boots, BM cannon and system. (There is a long boring story as to why I am not in full Eliminator gear, let's skip it). Note that this means on both tests, I had the +15% crit to Grav Round and Charged Bolts but not the -1 ammo to HIB. I used a 5/31/5 spec in both builds, which only differed insomuch as Target Lock was replaced by Target Lock's replacement. I also did buy Cell Charger in both builds. No Rakata Stim, no raid stim, no crit buff, no relics or adrenals used.

 

You might argue that with a Rakata/raid stim and smuggler buff, my crit chance with Grav Round would have benefited me much more. It is true that my crit chance could have been pushed up to 50%. Also note that my reported Tech crit chance is 32.13%, and +15% should be 47.13% rather than the observed 41.45%. So overall the pre-1.3 numbers would have gotten sizable benefits from crit buffs. But I'm not sure they would have made up for the loss of 100+ DPS that the 1.3 build gives.

 

Those of you who called this a nerf to Gunnery, you focused too much on Crit and the Cell Charger change. What I saw on the PTS was, I could chain cast Grav Round, burn my Curtain of Fire proc, AND I could cast HIB off cooldown. I did not have to waste time building up stacks of +6% to HIB. In addition, Full Auto and HIB both benefit from the armor-piercing effects of the new perk that replaces Target Lock..

 

I hope there is a Commando or Merc on the PTS who has DPS gear and who would like to share data with us. That would settle this issue, I think. But for now I think we should call it a 10% buff to our DPS.

[oaceen]

I did not have to waste time building up stacks of +6% to HIB.

i agree with the rest of your post except this. you shouldn't be doing this on live now, and you should be using HIB off cd. unless you're going for burst (ie: pvp), each stack is still going to give you +6% either way and HIB in PVE is a free attack every fifteen seconds.

 

and i do love this change so much. 5 grav rounds every 15s to ensure that HIB was maximised is a completely ridiculous expectation, and 3 gives a lot more breathing room and moves gunnery further away from necessary grav round spam

[Poe_]

... it's great for under geared Commando's or Commandos that are not stacking the right stats but for geared out Commandos the move from 3-6 seconds is bad.

Perhaps it's about re-thinking gear stats? Any new gear priorities that, given this new resource management, make sense?

[Senscith]

Perhaps it's about re-thinking gear stats? Any new gear priorities that, given this new resource management, make sense?

 

Yes lets not get our crit up to 450 because of this change because I love having a 20% crit chance over a 35% chance.

Issue is that a well geared trooper got ammo back from dealing more damage through his crits. The more crits the more ammo back the more damage you can deal. With these changes your effectively losing 1 ammo per 3 seconds as a geared commando. You could stack more power but still a lot of your damage comes from your crits. Which would be nice if they'd fixed Deadly Cannon with Full Auto.

[Delaoron]

So, did any of you 'decently geared Commandos' who rant about a nerf actually transferred your character and could pls back up your claims with data/combat logs? Or for me it would be also enough to see a combat log from the live server where I can see that you always get more than 1 ammo back in 6s so that's really a bad change for you.

[xxIncubixx]

lol sooo bioware? when can i change my commando to vanguard?

[NoFishing]

Link to torparse on Public Test Server: http://www.torparse.com/a/48731

Important information: 2.92% miss chance overall, and 3.93% miss chance with Full Auto. DPS was 1103.38, when including the lost DPS during combat drop. Estimated lost DPS from misses was 105.47.

 

Interesting results. What is your accuracy rating? I expect there is some change to the ops dummy on PTS to give it a more realistic defense chance (I'm guessing 10%?), but your miss rate on hammer shot there seems excessively high to me.

 

EDIT: Also, 15 minute logs!!! You have far more patience than anybody I have ever met!

Edited June 11, 2012 by NoFishing

[ArchangelLBC]

meh, when the thing doesn't die it's easy to get a little mesmerized and next thing you know 40 minutes have passed on the OPs dummy.

 

The lower accuracy is because they replaced the 3% accuracy buff from Target Lock with an Armor Pen buff so he has an automatic 3% less accuracy.

 

Like I said earlier, it will at least make the accuracy on rakata/black hole/campaign gear not feel so dumb. I like having at least 100% ranged accuracy so we'll see how it all shakes out.

 

At least tests from the PTS show that ammo regen is a wash for well geared commandos. That makes me happy, or at least less annoyed (since if it's even now, it'd be even better if Full Auto actually procced cell charger like it's supposed to).

[BobaFaceroll]

At least tests from the PTS show that ammo regen is a wash for well geared commandos. That makes me happy, or at least less annoyed (since if it's even now, it'd be even better if Full Auto actually procced cell charger like it's supposed to).

 

This would be great, wouldn't it?

[ArchangelLBC]

Well, we know that BW likes to balance things around what's currently broken, then fix it unbalancing everything again. Just look at what happened to demo round.

[BobaFaceroll]

Well, we know that BW likes to balance things around what's currently broken, then fix it unbalancing everything again. Just look at what happened to demo round.

 

I hear what you're saying, but I think that's a one way street. Fixing something that winds up reducing performance is OK; fixing something that puts a class above their target metrics is not OK.

[ArchangelLBC]

Sadly this is true =/

 

In this case they've "fixed" it by giving us constant regen that matches what we currently have but not what we theoretically should have, and then have called it fixed.

 

So lame.

[Demonsong]

The developers responsible for the travesty that is the Commando / Merc should be Drawn-and-Quartered. Edited June 14, 2012 by Demonsong
cuz i is st00pid

[RhuilOctavir]

Definatley agree with most everything being said here. I don't feel these changes are really going to do anything outstanding for us and will probably result in us getting nerfed again next time for some stupid reason they keep thinking. The extra ammo can be nice in certain situations yes but overall i agree I get more with criting and to do my stuff im going to be more stationary to try and maximize the ammo i have to do as much damage as I can. Also curious if we are ever going to get a free re-spec like everyone else has been allowed. My final conclusion is that Bioware has decided that troopers are only good in massive groups and are supposed to die off in hordes so lets keep bringing them down. The PVE stuff is fine doesn't really require all that much skill in my opinion but PVP is dead for commandos. Guess they wanted to have a story only class for people to play.