A new level cap just might be the gamebreaker for me

[Shingara]

It's more likely that the servers would have players return for a few weeks. Old premades would come back and clear the content in 3-4 days. Mobs would be camped for a week or two max. Then everyone would realize there still is no endgame and trickle back to wherever else. This too is the norm for level increases.

 

I'm honestly not trying to be a buzzkill. I want this game to succeed. I want to get comfortable in game. I want to build a legacy, but I can't do any of that if game systems are changing every 2-3 months (which is what is happening).

 

And thats why we have to assume there is more to this then a simple increase in level cap and that there is some real drive behind content that is for a better term carrot on a stick. Reputation grinds, The ranking system within pvp, an acheivment system ( which was great in warhammer) and the secret project for space and whatever else they have up there sleeves and level increase is only a small part to it.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[Thornsbane]

Except that people who just finished grinding out for operations would then have to grind out again, and those that had no yet experienced any of the operations would then no longer be able to find groups for them. Obsolete content is rarely revisited.

 

I am just finishing grinding out all my top-tier gear......and I LOVE the fact that their is more to come! Its great having better gear than most people, but its better to have new content!

 

And we run the old ops still, and even FP's. Not everyone has progressed to the end and are 'too good' for easier quests. Its selfish to not want new content because a select few want to stay 'the best'.

 

New content is good! We cant freeze the game because some people put effort in the get the current best gear. It will be fun!!

[Phrase]

Because this game is very different beast to what we had at launch and we are only 6 months out. we have had new warzones, a live event, we are getting a new companion, we have had changes to the crafting and armour systems and more changes coming in 1.3/1.4.

 

This is the crux of my argument. Games that change their gameplay systems (including level caps) and disguise it as content usually end up alienating their player base. Players get frustrated with continually needing to adapt to the changing rules.

 

What if you were playing a game of chess and you had carefully positioned your pieces, only to be told that queens now move like pawns, pawns can move from anywhere to anywhere and knights can't move at all. It would probably be a bit frustrating. Granted it's not a perfect analogy, but I think it suffices to make my point.

 

I would like BW to take a stand and keep an established system we can all get comfortable with. It really seems as though they don't know what they're doing. How can I be confident that they have some grand over-arching vision that will wow (forgive the pun) me, when I have experienced problems nearly every time they change game mechanics?

 

I love this game, I really do. That's why I'm so adamant that they err on the side of caution and not open too many servers...err increase the level cap prematurely.

 

And thats why we have to assume there is more to this then a simple increase in level cap and that there is some real drive behind content that is for a better term carrot on a stick. Reputation grinds, The ranking system within pvp, an acheivment system ( which was great in warhammer) and the secret project for space and whatever else they have up there sleeves and level increase is only a small part to it.

 

That's a pretty big assumption and not one I'm willing to make at this point.

[Shingara]

This is the crux of my argument. Games that change their gameplay systems (including level caps) and disguise it as content usually end up alienating their player base. Players get frustrated with continually needing to adapt to the changing rules.

 

What if you were playing a game of chess and you had carefully positioned your pieces, only to be told that queens now move like pawns, pawns can move from anywhere to anywhere and knights can't move at all. It would probably be a bit frustrating. Granted it's not a perfect analogy, but I think it suffices to make my point.

 

I would like BW to take a stand and keep an established system we can all get comfortable with. It really seems as though they don't know what they're doing. How can I be confident that they have some grand over-arching vision that will wow (forgive the pun) me, when I have experienced problems nearly every time they change game mechanics?

 

I love this game, I really do. That's why I'm so adamant that they err on the side of caution and not open too many servers...err increase the level cap prematurely.

 

Well lets see, wow is the biggest mmo going and we can all agree on this, in terms of wow within there games lifecycle upto the year mark it was RADICALLY different from what it released as. Anyone thats played mmos know that what you start with and what you have a year out from release are different things. And in wows terms they just love to radically change there game system and are in the stages of radically changing there game right now.

 

We can see where other mmos have gotten it terribly wrong case in point would be swg when they hit it with a totaly new game system namly the CU and NGE. But at the same time there only saving grace was JTL which also was a totaly new game system built within it.

 

And like i said we dont know fully the reasons for the level increase or what goes along with it. And i highly doubt they are going to add more servers.

 

That's a pretty big assumption and not one I'm willing to make at this point.

 

And its not that big of an assumption. we know ranked pvp is coming, we know that the carrot on a stick system is already in place. We know they are working on a secret project and we can easily guess it has something todo with 3d space and we can only wonder how far they are willing to push the boundrys on the space game.

 

That also said it wouldnt be to hard to imagine an acheivment system within swtor would it really because we basically have one now with the codex system and could easily be expanded upon. We know that they plan todo live events and if they are anything like the ragy event they will be great. We know they are willing to add new planets, warzones, flashpoints, operations, playable races and new companions without the need for purchasing an expansion.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[Phrase]

Well lets see, wow is the biggest mmo going and we can all agree on this, in terms of wow within there games lifecycle upto the year mark it was RADICALLY different from what it released as. Anyone thats played mmos know that what you start with and what you have a year out from release are different things. And in wows terms they just love to radically change there game system and in the stages of radically changing there game right now.

 

Never played WoW, so you lost me. Not sure that just b/c it's done in WoW it should be done here, esp. since BW is supposed to be groundbreaking.

 

We can see where other mmos have gotten it terribly wrong case in point would be swg when they hit it with a totaly new game system namly the CU and NGE. But at the same time there only saving grace was JTL which also was a totaly new game system built within it.

 

Actually JTL was supposed to be in at launch and was included a bit later. As far as core game mechanics, those never changed for crafting or JTL in SWG. Sure new ships were added and hit-boxes might have been changed, but the whole RE mini-game and 3D flight wasn't changed. In fact they even upped the difficulty level of the space game without needing to increase the gear drops etc. They challenged the players to face new levels of difficulty without giving them new tiers of gear. It was actually quite fun. Additionally, one of the most challenging space missions came with the Rage of the Wookiees expansion and featured a new level of difficulty with no increase in level or reward. Anyone who's soloed Lord Cyssk will know what I'm talking about.

 

And i highly doubt they are going to add more servers.

 

I was being facetious by pointing out a time on BW's past when they acted prematurely and are now reaping the fruit of that action.

 

 

 

And its not that big of an assumption. we know ranked pvp is coming, we know that the carrot on a stick system is already in place. We know they are working on a secret project and we can easily guess it has something todo with 3d space and we can only wonder how far they are willing to push the boundrys on the space game.

 

That also said it wouldnt be to hard to imagine an acheivment system within swtor would it really because we basically have one now with the codex system and could easily be expanded upon. We know that they plan todo live events and if they are anything like the ragy event they will be great. We know they are willing to add new planets, flashpoints, operations and new companions without the need for purchasing an expansion.

 

And yet, I wonder why we can't have all of this without needing to introduce the headache of balancing classes around a new set of levels and abilities.

 

I'm already resigned to the fact that level increases are coming. I just hope they're careful with the implementation, otherwise they risk an even bigger subscriber drop-off.

[tekkamansoul]

Daoc never raised its level cap.

Eve Online never had levels.

 

One is considered the best pvp mmo of all times.

The other one the best sandbox mmo of all times.

TOR isn't a pvp nor sandbox mmo.

[Shingara]

Never played WoW, so you lost me. Not sure that just b/c it's done in WoW it should be done here, esp. since BW is supposed to be groundbreaking.

 

Im stating that change isnt always a bad thing, infact change is sometimes what is required to make something good into something great. And once upon a time long long ago WoW also was a groundbreaking MMO.

 

Actually JTL was supposed to be in at launch and was included a bit later. As far as core game mechanics, those never changed for crafting or JTL in SWG. Sure new ships were added and hit-boxes might have been changed, but the whole RE mini-game and 3D flight wasn't changed. In fact they even upped the difficulty level of the space game without needing to increase the gear drops etc. They challenged the players to face new levels of difficulty without giving them new tiers of gear. It was actually quite fun. Additionally, one of the most challenging space missions came with the Rage of the Wookiees expansion and featured a new level of difficulty with no increase in level or reward. Anyone who's soloed Lord Cyssk will know what I'm talking about.

 

As for JTL i stated that was swgs saving grace for alot of the players where as CU and NGE were what damaged it ultimaly for alot of the playerbase, removing specific class's and templates and diluting the game into something that tried to copy another template instead of following its own base template.

 

And JTL also shows how a space element in an mmo can have great benefits to a land based mmo such as swtor.

 

I was being facetious by pointing out a time on BW's past when they acted prematurely and are now reaping the fruit of that action.

 

At the time the servers opened up they were required, i think the only fault was that they were not designed as overflow servers instead of what they were which were constant servers.

 

 

 

And yet, I wonder why we can't have all of this without needing to introduce the headache of balancing classes around a new set of levels and abilities.

 

I'm already resigned to the fact that level increases are coming. I just hope they're careful with the implementation, otherwise they risk an even bigger subscriber drop-off.

 

And your assuming that this isnt being done to balance and are taking this on as something that will need to be rebalanced. As most mmo companys are at the stage that they are developing content 1 year before it hits live then we have to assume that this change has be pre balanced into the game already.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[Phrase]

Im stating that change isnt always a bad thing, infact change is sometimes what is required to make some good into something great. And once upon a time long long ago WoW also was a groundbreaking MMO....

 

... As most mmo companys are at the stage that they are developing content 1 year before it hits live then we have to assume that this change has be pre balanced into the game already.

 

We can keep going back and forth, but it's clear how each of us feels. I'm waiting for someone to give me a solid reason as to why BW needs to increase the level cap. All of the talk about content, carrots on sticks and revolutionary game design still doesn't answer the simple question of why the level cap and all of its attendant consequences needs to happen this early in the game's lifecycle.

 

Even SOE waited a few years to alienate their player base with the NGE. And from what little I bother to comprehend about "vanilla" WoW, many WoW vets claim it was way better than any of the expansions etc. introduced to make the game better.

[Shingara]

We can keep going back and forth, but it's clear how each of us feels. I'm waiting for someone to give me a solid reason as to why BW needs to increase the level cap. .

 

And ill stop it right there and state again the only thing we have heard is that there is a level cap increase coming, as of yet we have no other information about it do we.

[Sophs]

Tbh ive always found raising level cap annoying, this may be that ive played guild wars for most of my gaming life and while not a mmo like the rest i found that keeping the lvl low and never increasing it it mean that most of the gameplay relied on skill/build/etc which i find great, it was what kept me coming back to that game and trying to prove myself against it though not a very hard game i still found it challenging that if i couldnt beat a certain bit i would have to either get better at playing or come up with a new strategy and not just kill mobs till i out lvld the content and just breezed through it.

[Phrase]

And your assuming that this isnt being done to balance and are taking this on as something that will need to be rebalanced. As most mmo companys are at the stage that they are developing content 1 year before it hits live then we have to assume that this change has be pre balanced into the game already.

 

Considering they've recently re-balanced their combat math w/o a year long lead time, and also based on the fact that they've fast-tracked development of the LFG tool and server transfers shows me that at this point BW is being reactive instead of pro-active and therefore leads me to be somewhat of a skeptic. Fool me once, etc etc. At this point I have to remain skeptical as a conscientious consumer.

 

The simple fact is that until BW is able to reliably produce polished content, I will remain skeptical. They should continue to add ops, Legacy unlocks, maybe even some new quest chains, and definitely more world events.

[Wraiven]

It's not a question of whether or not it's normal, but rather or not this is too soon to be upping the cap.

QFT!!!

 

The game is only six months old. This level cap raise is getting here way too soon. it is a desperate attempt from Bioware to draw back in players who are no longer paying them for their game. Six months and already a level cap raise. Most casual players are just now hitting 50. They won't even have a chance to get the gear that is out there now, more less the gear that will be introduced with a new level cap.

 

This was a bad move by Bioware that will not have the affect that they are hoping that it will.

[Shingara]

Considering they've recently re-balanced their combat math w/o a year long lead time, and also based on the fact that they've fast-tracked development of the LFG tool and server transfers shows me that at this point BW is being reactive instead of pro-active and therefore leads me to be somewhat of a skeptic. Fool me once, etc etc. At this point I have to remain skeptical as a conscientious consumer.

 

The simple fact is that until BW is able to reliably produce polished content, I will remain skeptical. They should continue to add ops, Legacy unlocks, maybe even some new quest chains, and definitely more world events.

 

Nail on head in blue, which means that the level increase is also part of that.

 

 

This was a bad move by Bioware that will not have the affect that they are hoping that it will.

 

And your simply guessing that they are doing this to get players back and nothing else, as if they are going to relegate not only content they are releasing now for endgame and all future endgame updates when it comes to flashpoints and operations but also currently released endgame content upto the point where the level increase comes in.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[Wraiven]

 

 

 

And your simply guessing that they are doing this to get players back and nothing else, as if they are going to relegate not only content they are releasing now for endgame and all future endgame updates when it comes to flashpoints and operations but also currently released endgame content upto the point where the level increase comes in.

 

I'm not guessing. This is not my first rodeo with an MMO. This has been done on many other MMOs and raising the level cap has only worked for one....WoW. Also, it took them what...two years before they actually raised the level cap? That was good timing on their behalf. Bioware raising the level cap (or announcing they are) after only 6 months is just completely irresponsible and jumping the gun. This will have adverse affects and will only bring in old players for a very short time.

 

This is not the first time I have said this about an MMO, I said this before, people told me I was wrong, but in the end, it happened just as I said it would. So here we go, round three. I'm telling you now this is what will happen, and you will tell me that I am wrong, and in the end, I will say, "I told you so" but it will be too late by that point. And when this happens, nobody will want to talk about it. They will just pretend this conversation never took place.

[Shingara]

I'm not guessing. This is not my first rodeo with an MMO. This has been done on many other MMOs and raising the level cap has only worked for one....WoW. Also, it took them what...two years before they actually raised the level cap? That was good timing on their behalf. Bioware raising the level cap (or announcing they are) after only 6 months is just completely irresponsible and jumping the gun. This will have adverse affects and will only bring in old players for a very short time.

 

This is not the first time I have said this about an MMO, I said this before, people told me I was wrong, but in the end, it happened just as I said it would. So here we go, round three. I'm telling you now this is what will happen, and you will tell me that I am wrong, and in the end, I will say, "I told you so" but it will be too late by that point. And when this happens, nobody will want to talk about it. They will just pretend this conversation never took place.

 

sorry but the fact that wow retained people after a level increase is due to that they happened with an expansion, as such wow is no model to base this on due the fact wow has never increased level cap without an expansion so your assuming the retention of players was due to the cap increase and not the content that went with it.

 

Your also assuming that there wont be a content increase on the same level to equal 5 levels worth of gameplay and that its simply a level increase all on its own added to this at no point to my memory recall can i remember wow releasing a gameplay area equal to what something like makeb or the new quest content gained via the quests from new daily hubs like we see in swtor without wow releasing an expansion or tied to an expansion via pre ordained area requirements and raid setting and unlocks tied to that specific expansion set and raid tier which generaly conform in wow to a farm/grindfest and nothing much else beyond that.

 

To say they are doing it to soon is quite laughable because me you nor anyone else bar bioware know what is going hand in hand with it. We dont even know if the level cap increase isnt something that was planed for way back in beta or what will happen to operations level range that are in game right now and the ones coming out before the level increase hits.

 

For all we know the max level cap they set out pre release could be something like lvl 60 or 65 and they are planning infact on the release a multitude of planets like dathmir, quest areas and lore events and zones specifically tied to what leads to an event that calls forth an expantion pack of such magnitude in a year and a halfs time on the 2 year mark which could be tied to the so called secret space update and just guessing here but heading into the unknown regions of space.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Shingara

[WrecklessMEDIC]

I'm not guessing. This is not my first rodeo with an MMO. This has been done on many other MMOs and raising the level cap has only worked for one....WoW. Also, it took them what...two years before they actually raised the level cap? That was good timing on their behalf. Bioware raising the level cap (or announcing they are) after only 6 months is just completely irresponsible and jumping the gun. This will have adverse affects and will only bring in old players for a very short time.

 

This is not the first time I have said this about an MMO, I said this before, people told me I was wrong, but in the end, it happened just as I said it would. So here we go, round three. I'm telling you now this is what will happen, and you will tell me that I am wrong, and in the end, I will say, "I told you so" but it will be too late by that point. And when this happens, nobody will want to talk about it. They will just pretend this conversation never took place.

 

So.... what's wrong with a 5 level cap increase every year? WoW used to give 10 levels every 2 years. Now they only give 5 levels every 2 years and people are complaining it's not enough. Most people burn through content so fast that a 2 year cycle has been excruciatingly slow.

 

So I ask again.... Why is a 5 level cap increase once a year a bad thing?

[Apeth]

No. Just more levels. Which is what I wrote. Please spare me the automated fanbot defense.

 

This comment by you negates any inteligent conversation you may have initially instigated. It shows your post for what it is. Un informed, childish and pointless. Please close this thread BW.

[Goretzu]

Where do you come up with this standrad of 18 months? Every MMO i've played has raised the level cap about every 12 months... and usally its 10 levels and not the 5 that Bioware is going to do.... Not to mention that its easier then hell to level in this game, I could understand if this was a grind heavy game and 5 more levels was going to take months, but people will hit that 5 level increase in ONE day.... The average person will only probably take 3-4 days max to hit it...

 

Go and look at the main MMORPGs, it works out about every 18 months (unless they start doing mini-expansion/adventure pack things).

 

12 months is the bare minimum, and 7 months is frankly insane.

[Goretzu]

Actually, this is what's going to be by December. One year. Not 7 months. And it's only a 5 level raise.

 

A 5 level raise in December would probably be "ok".

 

However where have they said this?

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

They key word is eventually... this game has been out less than a year.

 

Not for a small expansion, as its just been announced its going to be nearly a year after launch that they add the new levels and the content for it, 5 levels is not a major jump and its probably better to have a 5 level raise each year rather than a 10+ level raise every 2 years.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[NasherUK]

We are going to go from 3 Ops and multiple FPs to 1 Op and probably a couple of FPs at end-game just because they wanted to add a couple more days worth of pointless leveling. All that will happen is more people will leave the game once they realize they have to grind all their gear etc from scratch again. Edited June 6, 2012 by NasherUK

[Reducio]

We are going to go from 3 Ops and multiple FPs to 1 Op and probably a couple of FPs at end-game just because they wanted to add a couple more days worth of pointless leveling. All that will happen is more people will leave the game once they realize they have to grind all their gear etc from scratch again.

 

I have to agree that this is a little bit disturbing. Honestly i hope the new op gives us more then a handfull of bosses to tackle. Especially given that it will render the former ops obsolete.

[Nyla]

We are going to go from 3 Ops and multiple FPs to 1 Op and probably a couple of FPs at end-game just because they wanted to add a couple more days worth of pointless leveling. All that will happen is more people will leave the game once they realize they have to grind all their gear etc from scratch again.

 

That's pure speculation based on what was done in other games, there's no evidence or proof it will be handled that way in TOR.

[Heweyblade]

Dear OP.

 

I think you're wrong. More Levels means more stuff to do. Along with the stuff you are doing now.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Heweyblade
I'm a freakin Jawa

[Masturomenos]

Adding a new level cap is not a good idea when already there is limited things to be done at current level cap. If they raise it then all well get pve wise othe then exp grind is one new OP and one new FP. The whole point of 1.3 is to make FP and OP viable again for groups who cant them done anymore due to lack of plyers and groups and to give a chance to new 50s or undergeard alts to find groups to do them. If right now with multple OP and FP in game people have run out of content then raising the level cap and making current content obsolete to replace with less cotent is backwards.

 

If they raise the level cap to 51 or 52 and scale the current conent to the new level while adding a new FP and OP with higher item lvl then that would be a good and viable idea. Even if they didnt raise the level cap but did a system where certain levels of legacy unlocked new abilities and then let us level it via pve and pvp (wz, fp,op) you could even split pvp and pve legacy leveling to eperate cool unlock even more that are dont require balane that way when u hit 50 u get ur talent points to fill out ur tree then every 10 legacy levels after u unlock a new flashier visul for ur 31 point ability that be awesome. So instead of being 50 and legacy level 10 with wither as an example that looks like everyone elses u could be level 50 with lvl10 legacy but since ur legacy is lvl 10 wither has a new look that be a good idea.

 

Personally id rather we stay 50 but add more to legacy so that evry 5 or 10 levels of it u reach u unlock really cool new animations for abilities and new skins for ur gear or ways to add cooler armor skins to it. Legacy is the key to thi game and its better to grnd legacy for cool unlocks then levels for the same stuff in any mmo. We need the current content and the promised content the new FP and OP coming this year to all be at the same level cap before we start adding more player levels. Bioware devs need to finish this product before strting a new one. We still dont have ilum an entire planet but now are getting a new one? Makes no sense.

 

Best thing for bioware right now is to add this content, not add anoher leveling grind and focus on cool higher legcy unlocks to be what we work on thru pvp or pve as being a reason to play. Adding cool animations and gear skins etc requires no balance and has limitless potential, takes less time to produce and release since stats don change just looks, allows to add stuff in for ranked wz and nightmare mods that doesnt create more gear inflation, stuff can be added every patch and just makes it easier all around to add stuff in game without worrying about stat balance and item level inflation. Bioware u have legacy useit to ur advantage dont create more issues creat more solutions people will grind for the new ability animations, gear skins etc like they would levels and u dont have to worry about stats wth legacy just looks while a new level cap requires more work to legacy but to the whol talnts, skills, gear, etc aswell.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Masturomenos