Alright watchmen, whats with the numbers?

[AidanLightwalker]

I have sat here and seen tons of threads on how watchmen is sooo much better than combat. Some of you, have gone so far as to say since there is no numbers posted for combat, you win hands down.

 

Well, I've been at this for weeks and no matter how hard I tried, how closely I watch my DoTs, how many guides and youtube videos I watch on rotation and priority, I just can't get Watchmen to parse higher numbers then combat?

 

So whats up? Cause I'm convinced that Combat does more dps. At least it does when I test it. Have we gotten to the point that so many people said Watchmen was better that no its the norm even if numbers show otherwise?

 

I've been playing mmos for close to 10 years and just recently got done spending the last couple of years playing an affliction lock and assignation rogue in wow, had great numbers, before I quit, my rogue in NON- FIRELANDS gear was pumping out 28k dps, so I'm pretty sure I know how to play a DoT classes, thank you. I totally understand the concept of "clipping" and what not.

 

So enlighten me, whats going on here?

 

Combat log

Watchmen Log

 

Both have same gear, I can screen shot it for ya if need be lol

 

Edited, uploader cut off the times on the fight but both fights are between 360 - 370 seconds

Edited June 4, 2012 by AidanLightwalker
More Info

[AidanLightwalker]

Inspiration was not used in either tests, only buff was might. I have more parses like these two all with similar numbers.

[Funick]

well we probably need more info to diagnose if you really are doing everything optimally given whatever tier of gear you are in and what you are fighting. I'd start by asking how exactly you choose to do both your watchman and combat specs. next I'd want to look at where your gear what sort of stats are you running.

[AidanLightwalker]

well we probably need more info to diagnose if you really are doing everything optimally given whatever tier of gear you are in and what you are fighting. I'd start by asking how exactly you choose to do both your watchman and combat specs. next I'd want to look at where your gear what sort of stats are you running.

 

The gear is the same for both, ~1500 str, 25% crit 78% surge and 99.8% accuracy while watchmen and 102.8% while combat.

 

Just wondering why I can't get watchmen to parse highier than combat.

[conundrumx]

The gear is the same for both, ~1500 str, 25% crit 78% surge and 99.8% accuracy while watchmen and 102.8% while combat.

 

Just wondering why I can't get watchmen to parse highier than combat.

 

You're doing it wrong, I suspect. What's your spec? Are you keeping burns up? Using Zen?

[Navvak]

You're doing it wrong, I suspect. What's your spec? Are you keeping burns up? Using Zen?

 

Dude, really? Did you read his first post?

[Hadshi]

More survivabilety = more damage

[conundrumx]

Dude, really? Did you read his first post?

 

Not all of it, no. Watchman isn't super complex. Watching videos and reading guides doesn't mean he's been getting good information. Need to know what he's doing more specifically than just "I'm good at MMOs."

[AidanLightwalker]

Dude, really? Did you read his first post?

 

I am curious. I have read so many threads about how watchmen pumps out better numbers but for the life of me I can't recreate those numbers. I consider myself a perfectionest and want to do the most dps my class can do and so many people claim that watchmen is better and I can't see why.

 

Heals are nice but for straight up dps, I have to be missing something...

[AidanLightwalker]

Not all of it, no. Watchman isn't super complex. Watching videos and reading guides doesn't mean he's been getting good information. Need to know what he's doing more specifically than just "I'm good at MMOs."

 

Very true,

 

Rotation: leap, overloaded saber while in air, cauterize, merc strike, master strike,

priority: caterize, overloaded saber, zealous strike, merc strike, master strike, leap

 

Zen when 3 stacks of overload and caterize are up and don't clip caterize. Possible slash if none of the majors are up and I dont need to generate focus.

 

 

Is that the just of it?

[eggs_to_see]

Looking at your watchmen parse, first thing I notice is how high up your strike is, counting for 8.7% of your DPS and 170 hits. You are using that too much, which tells me you are not managing or not generating your focus optimally.

 

Input your skill tree builds into mr robot so we can analyse it.

Edited June 5, 2012 by eggs_to_see

[AidanLightwalker]

Looking at your watchmen parse, first thing I notice is how high up your strike is, counting for 8.7% of your DPS and 170 hits. You are using that too much, which tells me you are not managing or not generating your focus optimally.

 

Input your skill tree builds into mr robot so we can analyse it.

 

After looking some other watchmen parses, I would agree that strike is to high. I find myself focus starved alot. And instead of wasting focus on a slash, I use strike to maintain focus so I can keep my dots up or to maintain merc buff.

 

I also noticed my crit rate on burns seems to be lower than other watchmens.

[AidanLightwalker]

Maybe I'm to ability happy from combat, is there ever times where if you slashed it would focus starve you and you would be delayed for a caterize and you have. 5 on cauterize and it would be better to "wait" as appossed to using a strike? You know?

[AidanLightwalker]

Looking at your watchmen parse, first thing I notice is how high up your strike is, counting for 8.7% of your DPS and 170 hits. You are using that too much, which tells me you are not managing or not generating your focus optimally.

 

Input your skill tree builds into mr robot so we can analyse it.

 

After looking at what you mentioned, and other watchmen logs, I went back and re tooled my rotation. I am parsing watchmen numbers equal too or slightly better with watchmen. How about that?! Hum...

[conundrumx]

After looking at what you mentioned, and other watchmen logs, I went back and re tooled my rotation. I am parsing watchmen numbers equal too or slightly better with watchmen. How about that?! Hum...

 

Does this mean you figured out the error of your ways and are hitting the numbers you see elsewhere?

 

I would still like to see your skills.

[PolishRifle]

The difference in accuracy may be a part of the difference too. Your combat has ~102%, anything over 100% begins to bypass (not sure of the proper term) the targets armor. I also don't see the use of Force Stasis on your watchmen which deals ~350+ kinetic per second and allows your DoT's to do their thing. With a 1 minute cool down, you can use it 5 or 6 times in the time period and its also a focus builder (3 focus for full duration) .

[AidanLightwalker]

Does this mean you figured out the error of your ways and are hitting the numbers you see elsewhere?

 

I would still like to see your skills.

 

This is the build Im using for dps,

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_knight/sentinel/#::f2ef2efef12e5fe2fe8f10ef8

[Elear]

I'm not saying one build is better than other, just pointing out one issue - gear isn't the same for both specs, and you can't learn other spec just by looking at it.

Force Stasis - there is no place for it in Combat, while it could be better than 2 stikes for Watchman.

Accuracy - offhand attacks can proc Ataru strike, so it's more important for Combat than for Watchman, that can live with cap on MH.

Your relic - for Combat, it should proc during most of your precisions, which will make up for reduced damage in comparision to internal damage relic. For Watchman, it's just plainly worse.

Willpower - burns are force attacks, and so is Blade Storm. But burns are a lot more important for Watchman than BS is for Combat, so all thos extra datacrons you got for Willpower will benefit Watchman more.

Other side of the coin - Combat is purely Kinetic/Energy damage, it gets huge increase on target with armor debuff, while that advantage is reduced for Watchman.

 

Generally, tests done by people respecing only for that are biased toward spec that player is usually playing.

[AidanLightwalker]

I totally agree with everything you just said dude. Totally. One thing that is consistent in all the numbers people have posted is that watchmen seems to have a slightly better sustained dps and combat has better burst. Even when I finally got watchmen to parse slightly better numbers, the spike in its damage was never there. My combat logs show burst in combat of 4k dps while my watchmen logs never really broke 3.5k, even though those logs will show combats average dps of 1250 and watchmens of 1300.

 

At this point, I trully believe there is enough data out there to say watchmen does hold the highier sustained dps with combat having better burst. I guess it all comes down to whether or not you want highier sustained with some healing or highier burst with a little less sustained...

[thepilk]

The difference in accuracy may be a part of the difference too. Your combat has ~102%, anything over 100% begins to bypass (not sure of the proper term) the targets armor.

.

 

After 100% Accuracy reduces the targets defense stat, not their armor.

[Veniras]

Most ppl like watcvhman because it makes them survive longer due to self-heals.

 

If all three specs are balanced then that added survivability has to offset something else for the build. I woulds imagine this to be the DPS.

 

Combat is designed to be a fast-firing/proccing glass cannon. It SHOULD have a baseline higher DPS than watchman.

[AidanLightwalker]

Most ppl like watcvhman because it makes them survive longer due to self-heals.

 

If all three specs are balanced then that added survivability has to offset something else for the build. I woulds imagine this to be the DPS.

 

Combat is designed to be a fast-firing/proccing glass cannon. It SHOULD have a baseline higher DPS than watchman.

 

It has a highier burst, hence it kills things quicker. No real ramp up time. The faster stuff dies, the less time it has to damage you.

[Grimsblood]

This is the build Im using for dps,

 

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_knight/sentinel/#::f2ef2efef12e5fe2fe8f10ef8

 

That is the defense Watchmen build. Drop Steadfast and pick up Insight. Your burns come from your "Force Attacks".

 

 

Beyond that, there are a few post in here that I agree with from my own experience.

 

1) In reference to Watchmen vs Combat having the relation of Sustained vs. Burst (In that order. I have one more set of parsing logs to run in order to be 100% certain, however I can say with confidence that Combat has a LOT of spikes with noticeable periods of a "break". Where Watchmen has the spikes and no "breaks"

 

2) Gear plays a roll. I am max/min for Watchmen and my parses show it doing about 100-200 more dps then Combat in the same gear. As a base, my Watchmen build only utilizes 99.24% accuracy. The research I did has lead me to the conclusion: In order to get the best dps out of Combat, one needs to max/min stats to have 110% accuracy. (On a side note, it now makes sense why the Sentinels gear has all that friggin accuracy on it that pisses me off.)

 

FYI: On a final note, In 1.3 PTS notes it says that Precision Slash is not limited by the GCD. This will in effect bring it down to EXACTLY how Overload Sabers functions; allowing it to be used more and at a less cost (Focus cost is reduced as well). I predict the combat parses to go up now to be slightly higher than Watchmen.

 

With all that being said, it appears that Watchmen is the utility (PvE) tree where Combat is the burst tree (PvP). Each classes trees follow a PvE/PvP/Shared model imo.

[AidanLightwalker]

Does your parses show the spikes in watchmen being highier than the spikes in combat?

[Grimsblood]

Does your parses show the spikes in watchmen being highier than the spikes in combat?

 

Defensive Watchmen Parse (31/7/2): http://www.torparse.com/a/48538

Basic Combat Parse (5/31/5): http://www.torparse.com/a/48539

 

I had some slight upgrades in gear going from Watchmen --> Combat. I was not using the Insight in the first Watchmen build do to trying to mitigate AoE damage for my healers in a few fights.

 

You will notice I had higher peaks in Watchmen. However Combat had a greater difference between the peaks and valley's.

 

(I would also edit my above post where I said the build was the Defensive Watchmen build. I was incorrect. I was thinking it was, but it wasn't. Just an added accuracy bonus, which imo does not have any value for Watchmen. The switch to Insight is still recommended.)

 

 

/E I just ran a new parse this evening with the same gear I used on the Combat one. The build was (31/5/5): http://www.torparse.com/a/48742

Edited June 10, 2012 by Grimsblood