PvP Gear Grind - Is It Too Much?

[nikthebeast]

Carrot on a stick-PvP, or PvE for that matter, is a relic of the past. It is a gimmick to keep people playing and artificially hiding lack of substance in PvP or PvE. Unfortunately since BW, but exlusively BW, do not have any other kind of reward system for PvP, this is what many people need.

 

Some will argue "real" PvP:ers don't care about this and if by this you mean people who enjoy PvP for the sake of PvP then I agree with you. The major issue is that, right from the start, it was impossible to form a full premade team. Had it been 4v4 then the competitive scene would have taken off naturally, or the the option to form operations and face another preset operation. What I mean is the ability to set up matches between guilds across both factions.

 

This is what made E-sports so popular. You formed a proper community around player vs player combat. Not just randomly being faced off against other players with the hope that you might face another premade. With a system like this the gear issue would dissipate quickly as it would then become about beating the team. Medals, kills and all that idiocy would be ignored in favour on who actually won. There would be actual prestige in a win, a healthy forum for competitive PvP.

 

Gear could then be tailored to favour experimentation, and while higher ranks could specialise more widely in gear selection. The comparable gear power level would remain the same. Basically, higher ranks and scores would earn you flexibility and direction should you choose it but not create a significant gear gap.

 

I'm purposefully ignoring world PvP as it isn't worth mentioning in the context of SWTOR.

 

Just my 2 cents. Not claiming this is the solution, I'm just sick of grinding for power and the lack of any worthwhile PvP. So when rated arrives, I do hope that eventually there will be an option for premade-games not just rated random queues.

[ComeAndSee]

The difference between BM and WH gear is marginal to a point it doesn't make a very large difference. And BM gear is extremely easy to complete. So no, the gear grind is not too much. Recruit makes you useful, BM makes you competitive, WH is mostly about bragging rights for experience.

 

Course with the new weekly giving 300 of each comm now it will be even easier. So you got what you want.

 

The difference is rather huge in terms of stat allocations. I mean, my trooper BM sets were loaded with Accuracy and there was no Crit/Surge mods available. I couldn't min-max like I wanted and I had to buy a lot of off pieces to get where I wanted.

 

With the WH set I've been able to min-max exactly like I wanted and I didn't even have to play with my mods or buy any extra pieces. I mean, there's some mods I'm nit picky on, but I rather buy WH pieces for my alt now.

Edited June 1, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Keypek]

If what you are saying is that there shouldn't be an even playing field and Average Joe shouldn't be able to compete, I fully disagree with you.

 

Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the playing field is even enough. I'm saying if you want to max out every single piece of equipment it should take a little effort. But the gear that is easy to get is competitive in a warzone environment. Especially if with some competent allies. I think most of you are thinking on a 1 v 1 level. Sure in a 1 v 1 with equally skilled players obviously the one with the maxed gear will probably win depending on crits and luck. But I could care less about how long it takes you to be a 1 v 1 god.

 

And time does not trump skill in this game. That I can guarantee on a nightly basis. Is it as noticeable as in a game such as daoc? No, but it is still apparent.

[coerCez]

Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the playing field is even enough. I'm saying if you want to max out every single piece of equipment it should take a little effort. But the gear that is easy to get is competitive in a warzone environment. Especially if with some competent allies. I think most of you are thinking on a 1 v 1 level. Sure in a 1 v 1 with equally skilled players obviously the one with the maxed gear will probably win depending on crits and luck. But I could care less about how long it takes you to be a 1 v 1 god.

 

And time does not trump skill in this game. That I can guarantee on a nightly basis. Is it as noticeable as in a game such as daoc? No, but it is still apparent.

 

I think you are the one that thinks about 1 vs 1. What happens when you have a 2 people in BM vs 2 people in WH in a Warzone? What happens when it is 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4, etc? 1 vs 1 is the smallest amount of difference possible but still a huge difference in terms of power and effectivesness.

 

I am more concerned about the games I get into where there are more then 3 fully WH geared opponents. Believe me 2-3 fully WH geared players make a world of difference in WZs.

 

Maybe your assessment as to what is competitive is a whole a lot different than mine. I don't believe a 20-30% difference makes for a competitive playing field. 5% is about the max difference there should be between a fully BM geared player and fully WH geared player taking into account of optimization.

[RefugeASSASSIN]

I think the grind for WH gear is actually a good one, and with the new changes, if you do your daily every day for one week thats 900 rated warzone comm's just from the rewards. Add in the Weekly and thats another 400 rated comms giving you 1300 comms from the daily/weekly ALONE. Thats not even including the regular warzone comms you get just from being in a match. Here is another example:

 

For the Weekly, you have to WIN (not participate in) 9 warzone matches. When you win a match you usually get between 110-140 WZ comms. For the sake of argument, lets say you get 125 for all 9

 

125 x 9 = 1125 WZ comm's. Divide that by three and you get another 350+ Ranked.

 

So from just completeing the weekly alone in one day you get:

 

400 Ranked Warzone comm's (reward)

1125 Regular warzone comm's which = another 350+ Ranked

 

This alone gives you 750 Ranked, or roughly half of one WH piece of gear (for the cheapest gear) And thats if you were to win all 9 matches in a row and doesnt include dailies. Throw in the daily and your now up to 950 ranked in just one day. And thats if you were to go 9 for 9 on a Tuesday.

 

Of course thats an example if you had a monster Tuesday and were able to run the table, but we all know that even the best premades lose once in a while so winning all nine in a row is highly unlikely, but wait! theres more!! If you lose a match you STILL get between 50-100 comm's depending on performance, so those add up as well.

 

Personally I was a bit upset that they did up the weekly to 300. It should have been there in the beginning which I agree on, but now myself and others that grinded up most, if not all our pieces of gear the longer way kinda get the shaft a bit. Hell even upping the daily to 100 instead of 99 is huge beacuse at least twice I had to do one or 2 extra warzones to get that additional 2 or 3 comm's I now needed because I was short based on an arbitrary 99 daily number.

 

Long and short, people flew to endgame and now are flyin through the PVP grind as well. The devs are never going be able to churn out content as fast as we can consume it so we really need to stop dumbing down the grinds to even the playing fields or people are going to get bored faster and leave sooner.

Edited June 1, 2012 by RefugeASSASSIN

[Achyllis]

Carrot on a stick-PvP, or PvE for that matter, is a relic of the past. It is a gimmick to keep people playing and artificially hiding lack of substance in PvP or PvE. Unfortunately since BW, but exlusively BW, do not have any other kind of reward system for PvP, this is what many people need.

 

Some will argue "real" PvP:ers don't care about this and if by this you mean people who enjoy PvP for the sake of PvP then I agree with you.

 

Excellent analysis here. In less than six months BW has asked PvPers to grind out four sets of gear as the aforementioned carrot. Why? The PvP devs acted like amateurs and had no somehow didn't realize PvP leads to a lot of subs in MMOs. Oops!

 

To make level 50 PvP as competitive and enjoyable as possible once ranked WZs actually hit, BW should cap effective expertise in unranked WZs at the max available on BM level gear. Only in ranked WZs should you get the full benefit of your optimized WH gear.

 

Without a change akin to this ranked WZs will kill PvP for casual players within 60 days. Getting steamrolled by premades waiting for their ranked queues will be common. Neither the rollers nor the rolled will enjoy that for long.

[coerCez]

I think the grind for WH gear is actually a good one, and with the new changes, if you do your daily every day for one week thats 900 rated warzone comm's just from the rewards. Add in the Weekly and thats another 400 rated comms giving you 1300 comms from the daily/weekly ALONE. Thats not even including the regular warzone comms you get just from being in a match. Here is another example:

 

For the Weekly, you have to WIN (not participate in) 9 warzone matches. When you win a match you usually get between 110-140 WZ comms. For the sake of argument, lets say you get 125 for all 9

 

125 x 9 = 1125 WZ comm's. Divide that by three and you get another 350+ Ranked.

 

So from just completeing the weekly alone in one day you get:

 

400 Ranked Warzone comm's (reward)

1125 Regular warzone comm's which = another 350+ Ranked

 

This alone gives you 750 Ranked, or roughly half of one WH piece of gear (for the cheapest gear) And thats if you were to win all 9 matches in a row and doesnt include dailies. Throw in the daily and your now up to 950 ranked in just one day. And thats if you were to go 9 for 9 on a Tuesday.

 

Of course thats an example if you had a monster Tuesday and were able to run the table, but we all know that even the best premades lose once in a while so winning all nine in a row is highly unlikely, but wait! theres more!! If you lose a match you STILL get between 50-100 comm's depending on performance, so those add up as well.

 

Personally I was a bit upset that they did up the weekly to 300. It should have been there in the beginning which I agree on, but now myself and others that grinded up most, if not all our pieces of gear the longer way kinda get the shaft a bit. Hell even upping the daily to 100 instead of 99 is huge beacuse at least twice I had to do one or 2 extra warzones to get that additional 2 or 3 comm's I now needed because I was short based on an arbitrary 99 daily number.

 

Long and short, people flew to endgame and now are flyin through the PVP grind as well. The devs are never going be able to churn out content as fast as we can consume it so we really need to stop dumbing down the grinds to even the playing fields or people are going to get bored faster and leave sooner.

 

So by your example it is perfectly fine to get enough Rated commendations for HALF of a piece of the cheapest WH gear PER Week? You do realize that there are 11 pieces (excluding relics) so it is ok to get full WH gear in around 7 months or so? I don't think this kind of time commitment has any place in today's MMO market. This should be at max 7 weeks and not 7 months...

 

Of course I fully realize that 7 months is a casuals time commitment taken into account that he/she will do daily everyday and complete weekly. I am sure fully WH gear can be completed within a month if you lpay hardcore, which is exactly the problem of time vs. gear.

[Achyllis]

Hell even upping the daily to 100 instead of 99 is huge . . .

 

What? Huge?

[Leiralei]

Of course I fully realize that 7 months is a casuals time commitment taken into account that he/she will do daily everyday and complete weekly. I am sure fully WH gear can be completed within a month if you lpay hardcore, which is exactly the problem of time vs. gear.

 

If your server isn't dying, you actually get 3-6 games per day and can actually complete a weekly within a week instead of within a MONTH...

 

I play several hours a day as I am disabled. Taken to being afk browsing while waiting hours for a pop, or playing my guildie's toon on my old laptop on fatman while waiting for a pop on my main so I'm not bored for hours on end waiting.

 

Right now on my server it looks like 2+ years for full WH.

[Gidoru]

Gear grind is 100% necessary. As much as people like to complain about it, it is responsible for a large amount of the fun in PvPing. Why? Simple it provides you with an incentive to keep playing.

 

A lot of people also seem to think that one should just pvp for pvp's sake with no gear progression at all. What you dont realize is A LOT of people would no longer play or play considerably less. You dont know how many times ive heard someone say "i have full BM im bored".

 

All you have to do is look at WoW Arena. The begining of a season sees a huge amount of activity as people play to get their gear. Then there is a HUGE falloff in the middle of the season when people get full arena gear and simply stop playing.

 

PvP is not enough on its own to keep people interested and playing. Gear progression is needed.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[dcgregorya]

War hero gear should have never been put in the game in its current form. It will be easy to grind once ranked warzones come out (will take 1/3rd as many matches to get the amount of comms you need). The real problem is the 40-49 comm grind to not be gimped at 50. Recruit gear is too far underpar compared to BM. Given the stat differential recruit gear should have 1500 or so expertise instead of 900.

[Leiralei]

Gear grind is 100% necessary. As much as people like to complain about it, it is responsible for a large amount of the fun in PvPing. Why? Simple it provides you with an incentive to keep playing.

 

A lot of people also seem to think that one should just pvp for pvp's sake with no gear progression at all. What you dont realize is A LOT of people would no longer play or play considerably less. You dont know how many times ive heard someone say "i have full BM im bored".

 

Facerolling new level 50s while your entire team is in full top tier gear LEADS to boredom.

 

I enjoy 10-49 pvp more despite no gear grind because most often games are about skill, unless you happen to have a team of lowbies without abilities vs high levels with almost all abilities. Even then, you can often still do something to fight.

 

There is no incentive needed if the games are engaging and fun, and that happens when games are set up so skill > gear.

[Cerdo_hormiguero]

It's ridiculously easy to get competitive gear in SWTOR. It's straight up welfare . . .

 

Only takes a few days to get full BM, then only need 1-2 pieces of WH to have gear play a negligible difference in fights (i.e. skill/class/teamwork will be the determining factors in almost all fights).

[EduardoJN]

This "gear based" system for PVP is old and rusty.

 

U have to grind your way until u start having fun, thats uber lame.

 

We could use a new one, with the grind directed to customization, to let u be able to wear a unique gear, use a unique weapon....in other words: allow u to have a unique visual, to be the way u want and dont look like others.

 

But a grinding that allows players who play this game 24/7 to stomp in the face of ppl who work, study or have a social life only because they have a far superior gear is really a joke.

 

On this scenario, i guess guild wars 2 is taking a step on the right direction with their new pvp system (but unfortunatelly i dont like the game; kinda ugly that red vs blue team, but the idea of a balanced pvp is excellent).

[Leiralei]

It's ridiculously easy to get competitive gear in SWTOR. It's straight up welfare . . .

 

Only takes a few days to get full BM, then only need 1-2 pieces of WH to have gear play a negligible difference in fights (i.e. skill/class/teamwork will be the determining factors in almost all fights).

 

lol what server and faction that it only takes a few days to get full BM?

[Calitri]

lol what server and faction that it only takes a few days to get full BM?

 

if you have nothing else to do for a few days, I mean nothing else to do for a few days. i could see it happening on any server that's in the standard range most of the day. But casually, maybe a couple of weeks. The grind really isn't that bad unless you insist on getting the most expensive pieces first.

[Ewgal]

Well, it is worth it when you stand shining before everyone in your war hero gear.

[Stovokor]

Compared to other games in the genre the gear grind in SWTOR is laughable

 

^ On the money.

The acquisition process in SWTOR is the easiest by far. The running joke is .... these days, they are handing out Battlemaster. Seen multiple player's get full BM on my "Light "server within 4 days - 1 week plus. Currently my main is 3 piece ( armor , relic, wrist ) from full Warhero which is still behind the curve...

 

I play on average ten level 50 warzones a day.

[UGLYMRJ]

As easy as the level grind is and MOST of the gear grind.... I'm glad they threw in a half decent gear grind with WH gear. From any MMO I've played this is by far one of the easiest grinds all around.

[UberDuberSoldat]

Well I would guess War Hero gear takes time to get because it's just marginally better than Battlemaster on the battlefield, and as the top tier gear lvl currently is granted after having played a lot of PvP.

 

It also seems set up for ranked warzones, and should be easier to get when that is implimented

 

This. Grind isn't bad for WH.

 

War Hero gear is a reward for having fun and playing PvP. If you don't enjoy PvP without WH gear, you're not going to enjoy it with WH gear.

[ChazDoit]

As I said before.

 

You should beat the guy in front of you because you know how to play your class better, not because you grinded a million warzones.

 

I personally have a few WH pieces myself, but I know how to play my class and I wouldnt mind if Bioware decides to level the playing field. I see way too many people afraid of losing their gear advantage in this thread.

[ShadowOfVey]

Been done with WH gear for a while now and I'm not someone that sits online all day every day playing warzones (not even close to it).

 

It isn't a big deal at all.

 

Hoping for conquerer gear soon!

Edited June 2, 2012 by ShadowOfVey

[RefugeASSASSIN]

So by your example it is perfectly fine to get enough Rated commendations for HALF of a piece of the cheapest WH gear PER Week? You do realize that there are 11 pieces (excluding relics) so it is ok to get full WH gear in around 7 months or so? I don't think this kind of time commitment has any place in today's MMO market. This should be at max 7 weeks and not 7 months...

 

Of course I fully realize that 7 months is a casuals time commitment taken into account that he/she will do daily everyday and complete weekly. I am sure fully WH gear can be completed within a month if you lpay hardcore, which is exactly the problem of time vs. gear.

 

Re-Read what I wrote. I said you can get either half of one piece in 1 day in one example and almost all you need to buy the cheapest piece in another example. These are simply ONE DAY examples, stretch that out over an entire week and you get much, much more then that.

 

even if you only log in long enough to finish your daily 4-5 times a week it still shouldnt take you 7 months to complete the set.

Edited June 2, 2012 by RefugeASSASSIN

[Leiralei]

When you get logged off afk while waiting for a wz pop then it becomes tough to get the daily done. When you lose 100% of your games for weeks on end it gets tough to get the weekly done. Without that little boost of actually winning (and I usually end up top 3 dps which is BAD for only BM geared) then yes you're looking at 7 months to get WH.

 

I used to play all day every day, and am lucky to get 6 games in on my server. Slowly I've been playing less and less. There are about half the people on fleet that there were a month ago. Half the WH on Republic rerolled Marauders so every game is half-geared Pubs vs OP classes and geared WHs.

 

Bioware needs to consider worst case scenarios for these things.

 

BTW, don't play Republic on Vrook Lamar if you want to gear up. It's near 100% loss.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Leiralei

[williambr]

Compared to other games in the genre the gear grind in SWTOR is laughable

 

It depends on how you look at it. The games been out six months and already has 4 years of WoW armor grinding.

 

Especially when the "Genre" is moving towards FPS models and throwing out the gear grind(like GW2) which in its self is funny since FPS games are adding in gear grinds lol