[PvP Guide] Vengeance/ Immortal tank build

[carlosg]

Introduction

 

Hello everyone, this guide is still heavily under construction, it has all the basics for someone wanting to start this build but it is by no means finished. I still intend to add some more math to it and more details (especially to the gear and stats aspect). For now, it is mostly focused on instructions on how to be a good tank using this spec.

This guide is originally posted in my guild forums here (it's an open section, you don't need to register nor login to see it). I copied and pasted it below and will be editing both instances as I add info (probably over there first and then copying it over here).

 

Feel free to offer feedback, suggestions, corrections etc. But please remember to be constructive. If you think I'm completely wrong, say it, and mention what you think should be the right thing to do. We are all on the same boat here, so I hope to grow and learn as well with this guide. Here it goes!

===================================================

 

General Info

Spec: 16/25/0

 

Main function: Tank spec with some DPS, protect your healers, mitigate enemy damage with taunts, guard and CCs, interrupt and help focus down enemy healers at times, you're a support class. Basically, you need to be as annoying as you can be. You will not accomplish much by yourself, but in a team you can be the difference between shameless defeat and glorious victory. Slow everyone, taunt the right DPS, annoy the right healers with interrupts, peel DPS off of your healers, switch your guard to people being focused and your utility will be fulfilled. If you fail to do that and you want just to focus DPS without looking around, this spec is not for you. If you are so annoying that people focus you down (or try to focus you down) all the time, you’re doing your job. While they hit you, your healer is free, and so is your team.

 

Pros: Can take a beating, you have Invincible, Enraged Defense, Saber Ward and Endure pain as defensive cooldowns, alternate among those at the right times and you should stay alive for a decent amount of time. Lots of mobility, with unstoppable when you Force Charge someone you’re immune to push backs and snare effects for 4 seconds, this wins Huttball matches and can make people waste many cooldowns on you. Add to that Intercede on your allies and you can pretty much go anywhere, escape fights you should escape from by interceding away etc.

 

Cons: Not very good on 1v1 combat, can’t really kill anyone by yourself, if you’re the only person hitting on a healer you should be interrupting him and not trying to DPS him down or you will take forever. Your DPS is great when it’s added to other people in your team, by itself it doesn’t accomplish much. This spec suffers in bad team with lame DPS or no healers, you can’t carry bad people or “compensate” for their lack decent game play. You can do your job, but then eventually you’re going to be focused down and die, with no good healers to keep you up and no DPS to take the windows you open to kill people while they waste time hitting you, will you end up dying a lot even with defensive cooldowns (unless the enemy is stupid enough to not notice how you’re interrupting their healers and taunting everyone of their main DPS). Unfortunately, it is the sad reality of playing support classes with uncoordinated pugs. This is a very team based spec.

 

Gear

All DPS set gear (Vindicator) with only the offhand as the Shield Generator (War Leader). Focus on Power as your main stat, make sure you have the needed accuracy. The bonus in the DPS set was made for tank juggernauts (I know right? Go figure).

 

For augments I use all Fortitude augments (+18 Endurance, + 12 Power) on every piece.

 

Rotations/ Combos

This is PvP so there is not set rotation, you have to use your skills wisely. There are a few moment sequences you can use though, DPS sequences and CC sequences, I’ll break it down here.

 

DPS rotation: Saber Throw if you can > Force Charge > Sundering strike > Impale (crit bonus for Force Scream from Savagery) > Force Scream. From this point on you can use Ravage, throw in some Chilling Screams to slow people, Sweeping Slash (cleave), use a area taunt if you’re surrounded by enemies, check on your healers and see if you can be useful somewhere else. If not you can continue your rotation, you will probably have cooldowns back up. So Sundering Strike > Impale > Force push away > Saber Throw > Force Charge > Force scream etc. These are only suggestions but you get the picture. When they are low on health use Vicious Throw instead of Force Scream.

 

CC rotation (annoying rotation): This is to be used when you want to lock down a healer mostly, but works with any caster (except damn snipers and their covers)

Force charge (interrupt a cast with it preferably) > Disruption on their next cast > Force Push on their next cast > Saber Throw > Force Charge on their next cast > Force Choke on their next cast > Disruption on their next cast > Intimidating Roar on their next cast.

 

This should get their resolve bar full and you are out of cooldowns. If they have a little bit of resolve built up before you start then the Intimidating Roar won’t work, but that still at least 10 seconds where you made a healer pretty much useless, and you’re DPSing on him while you’re doing this rotation, when you Force Choke them, use Ravage, and do your normal DPS rotation on them (see above) when you’re waiting for a cast. Disruption is off the global cooldown so you don’t need to stand in front of them waiting for them to cast, lay waste on those healers!

 

 

General Game play tips

The art of Force Push (General): I should start by saying that Force Push is by far the most awesome Juggernaut skill, period. Whenever you use it, your Force Charge cooldown is reset! How one uses this mechanic can literally make or break one's skill and efficiency as a Juggernaut.

That being said, Below are some moves you can generally make using Force Push. Check the Warzones specific section and the Class tips section for more related tips. IMPORTANT: Watch the terrain while (preferably before) using Force Push. Only push people down hills, never up, watch walls and things that can block your push distance so you maximize the "toss". Use basic common sense and this skill is your friend, fail and it will be a wasted cooldown.

 

Bring the healer to the fight: Sometimes, healers will stay at the back of the fight putting their allies between themselves and the enemies (smart healers will do that). So if any DPS tries to focus down that healer they may be jumped immediately by the enemy and die. Not only that, but by chasing the healer on the back one will also be forcing HIS/ HER healer to move forward and get exposed in order to heal him. This situation (moving out of range or LOS from your healers) is a classical case of overextending.

With Force Push, you can turn the tides! When you see a healer standing at the back, Force Leap to him, move behind his rooted ***, Force Push him back into the group and Force Leap him again. With this you can interrupt his heals with Force Leap, CC him for some time with Force Push, bring him close so your DPS allies can jump on him without having to overextend and if the healer decides go back, you can Force Choke him. If you can't use the choke because of cool downs, slow him with Chilling Scream and at the very least he will lose time walking back, and walking healers are not so efficient. This is all about removing the healer from his comfort zone and getting him to be messed up, works like a charm (most of the times).

 

Gain Ground: Force Push resets the cooldown of Force Leap, so if you wanna gain some ground and there is an enemy towards the direction you wanna go you have a shortcut! Force Leap the enemy, Force Push him in the direction you wanna go, Force Leap him again. This is especially useful on Huttball.

 

Isolate: If somebody is standing on any edge, you can use terrain to isolate them from the match using Force Push. You can then proceed to jump on them and finish them while their healer is away or you can just Force Push to remove that player from the main fight for a few seconds. You can use it on Healers to remove them from the fight, or if they are dying you do this to kick them out of guard range so they are more easily "killable". I normally toss a Chilling Scream before I Force Push, this way they are slow to return and will take even longer. Try not to use this to remove other Juggernauts or Marauders from the fight because they will just Force Leap back at you reducing the efficiency of the attack. Also, be careful when trying to remove Assassin tanks from the range of Guard by Force Pushing them, it might backfire, you will end up pushing the Assassin tank guarding the healer you're killing only to see him pull you away with Force Pull and CC you giving time for his healer to recover. More terrain specific tips on that will be below on the Warzone Specific tips.

 

 

== Alderaan Tips ==

In this warzone the general strategy for us shouldn't be different from the DPS. Of course the way we fight and benefit the group with guard and taunts is different as I mentioned at the begining of the guide, but the overall moves and principles are very similar to DPS in here. We attach bases and defend ours, there is no complication. Below I put a few tips specific to our skills to maximize efficiency.

 

- Intimidating Roar: Great for buying time when defending nodes, especially when you find yourself being the last survivor and surrounded by enemies, stun everyone and wait for your friends to get there on their speeders. It's obviously very useful in offense too to CC people so your allies can cap a node. If used intelligently it can bring you great advantage.

 

- The art of Force push (Alderaan section): At the middle base, this skill is more used with to isolate healers or to bring them to the fight (see general tips above). You can also use it as a simple CC to stop people from coming to a node when your allies are capping, this can be done in both Mid and side bases. However, on the side bases, Force Push can be much more efficient. Below there is a screenshot of the zones where you can use the Isolate maneuver to disappear with enemy healers for a few seconds (don't forget to Chilling Scream before you push).

 

http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l529/LGAllastair/SWTOR%20screenshots/Alderaanguide01.jpg

 

Another manouver you can pull off is at mid. When you see someone standing on the upper edge of the ramp that leads to any of the sides, you can com underneath them and push them up. If you do that, they will fly over the wall out of mid and will have to run around to get back. Pretty good move to isolate healers, even though it is kinda hard to pull off.

 

- Delaying the enemy: Swiftness when moving and coordination is vital for this warzones, so sometimes sacrificing yourself in order to disrupt the enemy movement is a viable strategy. This is situational, but delaying works. Sometimes you will see your team almost taking a side, and as you land from the spaw point you notice a few enemies moving from mid to that side in order to defend. It is viable to jump on mid, hit them, chilling scream and delay them, buy some time for your allies at the side, Force Charge people trying to run, Intimidating roar them all, Force Choke a healer making him stay behind as the others run, make them wast their CC. Even if you can delay them for only 10 seconds or so it can mean the difference, and if they get there to fight they will be without CC breaks and maybe slightly damaged or scatered. Like I said, this is situational, sometimes it is just better to go to the node and help your team, but never discard the possibility of simply delaying the enemy.

 

 

== Navare Coast Tips ==

COMING SOON!

 

== Voidstar Tips ==

- Intimidating Roar: During offense, whenever you wipe a side and there is someone planting the bomb, run to the base of their spawn point and as they spawn you can use Intimidating Roar to hold them all and prevent them from interrupting. The ones that break it can be force pushed, if there are more than one, Force Push one and Force Choke the other then proceed to spam Chilling Scream to slow them.

During defense, you can use this to stop multiple people from capping. AoE damage will break it, so make sure you save it to when there is only you defending a door against a bunch of people. This is not an ideal situation but it happens, Intimidating Roar will save the day. Pop it and then stop hitting people and watch as they stand in front of the door unable to cap, you can gain some precious time for your team to respawn.

 

- Saber Throw: When you're defending, this needs to be saved for door interrupts. Use Force Charge at will, but always save Saber Throw to interrupt someone at the door. This way you can move more freely while defending, jump on healers that are away to interrupt them etc. Always turn your camera and look at the door and when you see someone capping and your Force Charge is on cooldown you will be glad that you saved a Saber Throw. It should be enough as an immediate interrupt so that Force Charge is off cooldown and you can jump to the person capping, or at least walk back to them.

 

- Chilling Scream: This is a very useful skill when both attacking and defending.

When attacking, you can use this to slow people in between doors. Very often, you will be the last man standing on a given door after your team has tried to take it and wiped. When you notice that the enemy will switch doors to defend the other side, make sure you slow them and stall them as much as you can, Chilling Scream is a great tool for that (after you have already used Intimidating Roar to prevent them from running). As the enemy tries to leave to the other door you can slow them and they won't get there in time, Chilling Scream does not fill the Resolve bar so you can abuse it. Also, when your team is able to cap a door, spam this in the tunnels and slow all of their defense down. Killing them as soon as you got a door is not very smart and is the last resource, you want to slow them first so that your teammates have a chance at capping the shield. Only try to kill the enemy when they actually get to the shield and then start interrupting your team mates, before that, slow them with Chilling Scream or stop them with Intimidating Roar, the two transition tunnels are perfect for that as all enemies will be clustered together.

While defending, this is especially useful if they cap a door, slow them in the tunnels and give your team mates time to run down and position themselves at the shield generator for defense. You will likely die doing this because people will be running so you won't have a healer, but it's a worthy cause! Tanks were born to die! Are you afraid of dying son? DON'T BE! Also use this when you are fighting at a door and there are a bunch of people around, it's free, so renew it every 10 seconds or so, slowing people to keep them in your allies' AoE skills or simply so they cannot quickly switch is always useful.

 

- The art of Force Push (Voidstar edition): In offense, you can use this to stop people coming to a door where your team is capping, it is irrelevant if they are coming from their spawn point or from the other door. You see that defender coming, Force Push him back and away. Aside from this obvious use (pushing people away from objectives) you can also use it to "Bring the healer to the fight" maneuver (see the "General edition" of Force Push above to see how that works), particularly to get healers out of their safe zone behind the pillars near the first doors, they always stand there and heal. When your team get the bridges, don't push people out on the edge if you're attacking as this will just make them spawn back at the doors and be closer to defend, you don't want to kill them, just slow them. Only kill them when they are at the door.

While defending, at the bridges, use Force Push to toss attacking players down at the pit and kill them to buy some time. Also, while fighting at the doors if you see an enemy healer standing at the range limit (behind the boxes or simply at the back) while healing his team mates, Force Leap to him, Chilling Scream to make him slow and Force Push him away, Force Leap him again and get him rooted, Force Choke and run back to the door, this should get them out of the fight for some time. Remember to SAVE THE SABER THROW! If you're running back and there is someone at the door it will be your life saver.

 

- Sweeping Slash: While defending, use this at will to interrupt multiple people, it will buy you some precious time. If everyone turns to hit and kill you, use the Intimidating Roar and gain more time, pop defensive cooldowns, Enrage (if you're out of rage) and continue to Sweeping Slash and interrupt the enemy.

 

 

== Huttball Tips ==

For now I only have the basic gameplay video, I might do a writing guide later on.

 

 

== Class Tips for 1v1 ==

 

Juggernaut

Marauder

 

Operative

Sniper

 

Sorcerer

Assassin

 

Mercenary

Powertech

Edited November 15, 2012 by carlosg

[carlosg]

Reserved just in case.

[Sith-lord]

Nice guide. Just came back to the game a week ago. I use the same spec/equipment, and I've been enjoying my pvp fix since I've been back in game.

[AkulaX]

Thanks for this. I am leveling a jugg right now with almost the exact same plan/build.

[Khalhazar]

Thanks for this. I have a few questions that I hope the community will be able to answer.

 

I'm a standard veng/imm PvP tank in BM gear.

 

(1) I love Force Push, but have trouble using it sometimes. There have been a couple situations where I've pushed someone in front of me, and they've gone flying *back behind me* or even to the side. This is extremely frustrating, but I don't see what I'm doing wrong. My latency is usually around ~100ms.

 

(2) When competing for the huttball spawn, I usually lose, even if I'm spamming right click before it even pops. Again my latency is fairly low, so I'm not sure what is happening. Others (on my team and off it) almost always beat me to picking up the ball. What am I missing?

 

Finally, something more involved and important.

 

(3) How do I tell if I am doing well? Healers have healing numbers; DPS have the DPS charts. High numbers there gets them noticed and both loved by allies and hated by enemies. We have protection numbers, but they tend to be anemic compared to healing/dps. (Most matches I always have a primary target guarded, am intervening and taunting/aetaunting like mad, yet my best ranges from 60k to 150k depending on which WZ it is. My goal is to break 200k, but no luck yet.) My healer friend has people coming over from the other faction to tell her how much they hate her, and I admit that I'm jealous. Do tanks have a similar impact, just less obviously?

 

I actually talked about this at length with my wife. We agree that a point of protection tends to be more valuable than a point of healing, because the healing numbers are padded by topping off minor damage, whereas protection is often keeping a focus target alive a few more seconds. Yet, I read that protection numbers include the amount *transferred* by guard. So a good bit of my protection score is not actually stopped, just moved to a safer place.

 

I know that I'm useful in huttball, it's the other WZs that I worry about. I've been wanting to make a thread for this for a while, but this thread seems a better place...

[wadecounty]

Thanks for this. I have a few questions that I hope the community will be able to answer.

 

I'm a standard veng/imm PvP tank in BM gear.

 

(1) I love Force Push, but have trouble using it sometimes. There have been a couple situations where I've pushed someone in front of me, and they've gone flying *back behind me* or even to the side. This is extremely frustrating, but I don't see what I'm doing wrong. My latency is usually around ~100ms.

 

(2) When competing for the huttball spawn, I usually lose, even if I'm spamming right click before it even pops. Again my latency is fairly low, so I'm not sure what is happening. Others (on my team and off it) almost always beat me to picking up the ball. What am I missing?

 

Finally, something more involved and important.

 

(3) How do I tell if I am doing well? Healers have healing numbers; DPS have the DPS charts. High numbers there gets them noticed and both loved by allies and hated by enemies. We have protection numbers, but they tend to be anemic compared to healing/dps. (Most matches I always have a primary target guarded, am intervening and taunting/aetaunting like mad, yet my best ranges from 60k to 150k depending on which WZ it is. My goal is to break 200k, but no luck yet.) My healer friend has people coming over from the other faction to tell her how much they hate her, and I admit that I'm jealous. Do tanks have a similar impact, just less obviously?

 

I actually talked about this at length with my wife. We agree that a point of protection tends to be more valuable than a point of healing, because the healing numbers are padded by topping off minor damage, whereas protection is often keeping a focus target alive a few more seconds. Yet, I read that protection numbers include the amount *transferred* by guard. So a good bit of my protection score is not actually stopped, just moved to a safer place.

 

I know that I'm useful in huttball, it's the other WZs that I worry about. I've been wanting to make a thread for this for a while, but this thread seems a better place...

 

1 and 2 aren't really Juggernaut specific issues (well force push kind of is, but other classes experience similar problems with their knockbacks).

 

As for number 3, 50k protection is comparable to 300k healing or 300k damage, as that's the highest protection medal you can get. Any round you can get over 100k protection is a very good round. As a tank, you should be aiming for 200/50 most matches, that's a good bar to set (200k Damage and 50k protection). Unless you're a shadow tank or sintank in DPS gear, in which case 300k/50k is easy to reach, but they're seriously OP and probably going to get hit hard with a nerf in 1.3 since they escaped it in 1.2.

[Lymain]

Thanks for this. I have a few questions that I hope the community will be able to answer.

 

I'm a standard veng/imm PvP tank in BM gear.

 

(1) I love Force Push, but have trouble using it sometimes. There have been a couple situations where I've pushed someone in front of me, and they've gone flying *back behind me* or even to the side. This is extremely frustrating, but I don't see what I'm doing wrong. My latency is usually around ~100ms.

 

(2) When competing for the huttball spawn, I usually lose, even if I'm spamming right click before it even pops. Again my latency is fairly low, so I'm not sure what is happening. Others (on my team and off it) almost always beat me to picking up the ball. What am I missing?

 

Finally, something more involved and important.

 

(3) How do I tell if I am doing well? Healers have healing numbers; DPS have the DPS charts. High numbers there gets them noticed and both loved by allies and hated by enemies. We have protection numbers, but they tend to be anemic compared to healing/dps. (Most matches I always have a primary target guarded, am intervening and taunting/aetaunting like mad, yet my best ranges from 60k to 150k depending on which WZ it is. My goal is to break 200k, but no luck yet.) My healer friend has people coming over from the other faction to tell her how much they hate her, and I admit that I'm jealous. Do tanks have a similar impact, just less obviously?

 

I actually talked about this at length with my wife. We agree that a point of protection tends to be more valuable than a point of healing, because the healing numbers are padded by topping off minor damage, whereas protection is often keeping a focus target alive a few more seconds. Yet, I read that protection numbers include the amount *transferred* by guard. So a good bit of my protection score is not actually stopped, just moved to a safer place.

 

I know that I'm useful in huttball, it's the other WZs that I worry about. I've been wanting to make a thread for this for a while, but this thread seems a better place...

 

1) There is very, very significiant positional lag in this game regardless of your ping. You can have someone mezzed for 5 seconds in one place, and then your client will show them porting 5-10m away to where they actually are supposed to be according to the server.

 

2) I think they're just spamming faster, getting luckier, or have lower latency. I don't know any trick for it.

 

3) I don't think charts are a good way to judge your contribution to your team at all. Especially if you're queuing with a healer, I would simply focus on wins and losses. If you win every game, then you're doing great If you lose, try to figure out what you could have done differently to increase your chances of winning.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Lymain

[carlosg]

Seems like your questions were answered above, and I completely agree with the post above mine. There is a huge position lag in this game, plus, I live in Brazil, which means I always have 150-250ms latency. A "work around" is to avoid pushing people when they are moving. I understand that especially in huttball this is not easy to do, but it's the only way to ensure a proper force push. When you absolutely need to push somebody that is on the move, calculate in your head considering some delay, always consider the person about 5m in front of where they actually are and then you will have an idea of where they will fly when you push them. It is rather said that this happens but it seems that we just have to deal with it at the moment.

 

I also have a similar opinion when it comes to charts, numbers are not really that relevant, not even for DPS and healers. You could have top healing in a match and still lose it badly because you were healing the wrong people at the wrong time, you could have extremely high DPS at the end and none of that DPS was spent killing the people that needed to be killed causing your team to lose all fights, or simply be a reflection of heavy AoE or some favorable class mechanics. The numbers at the end ar a nice statistic and help you see your gear level and efficiency as a player but they are very situational. Especially because guarding and taunting reduces a PERCENTAGE of people's damage. That is, you could be doing everything right and still get low protection in the end just because the enemy team was failing at causing damage. If you won, then that's probably the case, if you lost, then you're probably taunting the wrong people and guarding the wrong ones and the enemy is being able to DPS them down easily.

 

It's much more about awareness, who you CC, taunt and guard then how much you do it. The best fights are the efficient ones. For example, you get to a point in Alderaan with your group, you fight the enemy for 30-40 seconds, wipe them, CC the incoming DPS and capture. In a fight like this your time will be spent either peeling people off of your healer and guarding him/ taunting the DPS on him. Or annoying the enemy healer and players with Intimidating Roar and the annoying rotation described in the guide. You will do a moderate amount of protection and some damage, but how you apply that protection and that damage is much more important then how much. If your healers are alive and theirs are dead, means you succeeded. Like I said in the beggining of the guide, this is a VERY team based spec. As a support, you multiply the efficiency of the group if you play well, but if the efficiency and coordination of the group is zero, then well, you multiply zero and accomplish nothing

Edited June 4, 2012 by carlosg

[Khalhazar]

Thanks for the replies. I guess the movement latency explains my problems with push. It's only *really* an issue in huttball, because otherwise I tend to use my push to isolate/interrupt healers and bring gunslingers out of cover. They always go where I expect them to, which supports the movement latency theory.

 

Re: evaluation, I completely agree that the charts are not trustworthy when it comes to actual *contribution* to the game. E.g. someone guarding a node NOT under attack will receive far fewer medals than someone guarding a node that IS under attack. Etc. It just seems that tanks don't get the same kind of love and hatred that the other roles do in PvP, and at some hours there are a *lot* of tanks (both good and mediocre) in PvP. Really Q3 is me angsting about role. I'm a better tank than a DPSer, but maybe I should experiment. And so on. I am never happy!

 

Thanks again for this resource.

[Trisma]

I've been running this spec since release for and for pve. it has served me well. goodadvice from OP. as for how useful a good tank is, I'm first in medals earned in 9/10 matches. must queue with a dedicated healer (can't stressthisenough) and you will control the match. I run with a healer and we usually never die in a warzone. your priorities are protect your healer with guard, taunts, friendly leap > same but for ally being focused > putting bleeds on their heals (the GCD for them purgeIng it is worth it alone) and interrupting heals. in huttball your job is run ball, run back to catch next ball, run ball again. we win 90% of our huttballs easily.

 

the juggernaut tank and healer combo can single handedly win most warzones.

 

(ps this God damn android keyboard is bull. hope nothing in my post got messed up)

[Butterstoo]

Why does everyone miss or not take "Sonic Barrier"? It is only better then a tanksin's ability to heal themselves for 12% of their health when force scream is on a 9 second cd from the vengeance talent. Unlike a tanksin channeling force lightning the bubble cannot be interrupted, CC'ed, stunned, knockbacked, etc. since it is an instant cast 10m ability. The bubble absorbs for as much as force scream does in damage. Therefore if you are wearing dps gear the bubble will be bigger since force scream will do more damage. You can leave the 2 points into Savagery by only putting 1 point into Deafening Defense. Do I even have to mention the set bonuses you can use to improve this talent? You could also stance dance and swap out the shield gen as needed too.

 

Why did you not get the free AOE slow? It is godly to be able to slow groups of people for free. You can play ring around a pole waiting for your force scream to come off cd. I know why you make qq threads about maras now .

Edited June 6, 2012 by Butterstoo

[Dracosz]

The bubble absorbs for as much as force scream does in damage.

 

Wrong, it only absorbs 850 damage at the moment. I agree that sonic barrier is strong (and imo necessary) but cases can be made otherwise for static damage reduction talents in vengeance.

[Crimson_Paladin]

Wrong, it only absorbs 850 damage at the moment. I agree that sonic barrier is strong (and imo necessary) but cases can be made otherwise for static damage reduction talents in vengeance.

From the look of it, in 1.3 it will scale to level. I wonder how it'll compare to how it is now. Hopefully what we have now is what was intended to be the minimum reduction.

[carlosg]

Why did you not get the free AOE slow? It is godly to be able to slow groups of people for free. You can play ring around a pole waiting for your force scream to come off cd. I know why you make qq threads about maras now .

 

I did get the free Chilling Scream, this was a mistake when I did the TORHead build to link here, it is now fixed. Not sure what you mean by QQ threads, never made any....

 

About Sonic Barrier, I didn't think it was worth on this build, please post the link of your build with sonic barrier so I can take a look, thanks.

Edited June 9, 2012 by carlosg

[naomicampuzano]

Just out curiosity, does this works for Jedi Guardian too?

[Khalhazar]

Just out curiosity, does this works for Jedi Guardian too?

 

I don't see why not; the trees are identical.

[Dracosz]

From the look of it, in 1.3 it will scale to level. I wonder how it'll compare to how it is now. Hopefully what we have now is what was intended to be the minimum reduction.

It absorbed around 1960 damage on the first day of the PTS but that was a bug, it absorbs only ~980 damage, even after the change.

[Butterstoo]

As I have already stated in the "How good is sonic barrier" post. The amount show that is absorbed by a "parser" DOES NOT INCLUDE damage reduction. the parser will state that it absorbed 850 dmg or whatever if you are naked with 0% dmg reduction or are fully armored. The bubble will effectively absorb 1700 points if your damage reduction is at 50% for that type of attack. As the dmg reduction goes up and up the bubble gets better and better. Use charge for an extra 20% DR, 6% from Soreu, 4% from the middle tree, and then you can stack 40% or 15% more on top of those. You can get the 4 piece PvE set bonus for 20% more bubble too.

 

The effective size of the bubble can be quite large if you stack dmg reduction abilities and cd's. CC or LOS when your bubble is down and you can keep using the free health that the bubble gives over and over. Use Enrue or whatever the free 30% health CD is in between bubbles too since the CD is so short.

 

I would have to go back and look through tons of QQ'ing mara posts, but I thought I remember the avatar and name from one or two. I did put the silly emote too just in case.

 

Just tired of all the QQ when Juggs/Guardians are quite good and have plenty of defensive CD's and abilities compared to a mara. Saber ward is shared and cloak of pain is only 20% (not my fault that you let it last longer then 6 secs). Most Juggs/Guardians have a higher natural damage reduction by 10% before they charge, can get 15% more DR, and health back at the cost of rage on a 45 second CD... Can we say that that is a wash or do you still think that cloak of pain is MUCH better? That just leaves Undying Rage which causes most of the QQ, yet Juggs/Guardians have an ability that gives them 30% more health on the same 1m30s CD and an ability that gives them 40% more DR. If you charged and stacked all you dmg reduction CD's you would not take any real dmg for 10 seconds. The problem is people do not stack DR with the bubble. Sorry to say, but the claim that a mara has the best defensive CD's in the game is B.S. The stealth CD, dmg, and healing debuffs that maras have are the trade off for not being able to tank, guard, and taunt.

 

I like the 17/22 core build so far with my Guardian since I figured out that it was the dmg reduction that was causing the scaling I was witnessing in game, and not the dmg done by force scream. As I stated in the other post I got the idea from a post on torhead about how the the bubble scaled with dmg. Sorry as I try to spend the majority of my time playing and not being a forum troll.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Butterstoo

[carlosg]

Yeah hehe, considering avatars are limited in here, I saw a thousand people with the same avatar I have, signature is the only thing that distinguishes us better. Regardless, you can look around all marauder QQ threads in these forums to find me if you want, good luck with that

 

I have no problem with the Marauder class whatsoever, I think they are fine and only really good ones can actually do amazing damage, which is a minority. I much prefer to be a Jugg (hence why it is my main). I'd still like to see what you throw away in this build so you can get sonic barrier, please post your build when you have the time.

[Butterstoo]

You only have to give up "Blade Barricade" and "Heavy Handed" to get "Sonic Barrier", and that is still with 2 points in "Unleashed" and "Intimidation" for a PvP build. In 1.3 Blade Barricade in will be even easier not to put 3 points into.

 

For PvE you drop "Unleashed" and "Intimidation" to get "Blade Barricade" and "Heavy Handed" or just go full tank. I have not done any PvE tanking on this toon yet besides leveling stuff.

 

Also unless I am in Shien form "Impale" eats rage leaving me rage starved, but I do not think you can beat the dps if you stance dance versus if you were to put those two points elsewhere.

 

I am liking the Jugg/Guardian, they have a lot of utility in group situations, and are tough. The idea behind Sonic Barrier is to hide your health pool as much as possible, it does not have to last all 9 seconds, but if it is up for half the time you are taking half the damage since they are always having to burn through the bubble for example. If the bubble goes down you can CC or LOS until the CD is back up. You can still dodge, parry, resist, and shield attacks with it up too. I have seen some posts/complaints that tanks are not tanks in PvP too .

Edited June 13, 2012 by Butterstoo

[carlosg]

I'm not familiar with the name of those talents, in case you didn't notice, I am a Juggernaut, not a Guardian. Yes, I could go to the TORhead and read talent for talent from the guardian tree to see what are the ones you are referring to, but since you mentioned Shien, it seems our build is very different, given that I don't even have Shien and I definitely don't swap stances.

 

I wouldn't even be posting this and our discussion would be most likely over if 3 posts ago you had went through what it seems to be the amazing work to simply make your build in TORhead and post it here. I'll be waiting

Edited June 18, 2012 by carlosg

[Sogar]

I did get the free Chilling Scream, this was a mistake when I did the TORHead build to link here, it is now fixed. Not sure what you mean by QQ threads, never made any....

 

About Sonic Barrier, I didn't think it was worth on this build, please post the link of your build with sonic barrier so I can take a look, thanks.

 

That's the build I use with sonic barrier : http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GrhkzzMZsMrMrhdz.1

 

It's mainly a swap between barrier and defeaning defense.

Sonic barrier gives you better mitigation against slow/sustain damage output whereas defeaning defense is better against burst phases (especially with enraged defense and a healer backing you).

 

Since I find that I have enough tools for those situations I prefer sonic barrier but both are viable really.

 

As far as metrics, I find that the damage done to you is another good one (especially if you have low deaths). Your damage output is far from being bad so they can't ignore you. Your job is both making your team take less damage (from taunts and CC) and make the other team target you instead of your teamates.

 

Last game (in BM gear) I got 423k damage, 200k protection, 307k damage received with 2 deaths (actually I'm not that happy about this one because 4 guys on my team were between 300 and 350k damage received, but I'm not sure I could do anything about that), and 67k healing (sonic barrier does give you easily 30-40k healing).

This one was clearly a special stalemate game but I can get 300k damage done, 100k protection and 250K damage received frequently.

[carlosg]

That's a good spec, I'll give it a try and see how it feels with Sonic Barrier instead of Deafening Defense, sounds like a fair trade. The only thing I'd change in that build would be in the immortal tree, I'd to remove 1 point from Quake and put it on Unleashed, the 15 seconds can make a difference between a node cap and another and fire stuns in Huttball, with the amount of CC in this game, anything helps.

 

Now about the numbers you pasted, 427k damage in this spec? Without Shien? I don't really know if these numbers can be reached, most I ever got in a Voidstar was 212k on full Vindicator BM gear with the augmented War Hero Lightsaber. Maybe we just play differently, I could see us getting up to 300k damage if we focus on enemy healers all the time while guarding ours and throwing taunts around. But I tend to focus on not only guarding and taunting, I also stop my damage rotations when healers say they are being focused and I intercede back to them, then Force Push, Force Choke, chilling Scream and Intimidating Roar the DPS around him to buy him some time. This kind of game play won't allow you to do that much damage since damage is not the priority and it's situational. Plus there are times when I simply slow or stall people so they don't reinforce a node or in the tunnels in Voidstar, I spam chilling scream, force push those who pass by me and charge to root people, during these CC times I'm not doing any damage. I don't see how you can get up to 427K damage even in a voidstar match by playing like a tank should play, many DPS don't do that all the time.

 

Regardless, thanks for the build suggestion, I'll test it.

Edited June 18, 2012 by carlosg

[Dracosz]

That's a good spec, I'll give it a try and see how it feels with Sonic Barrier instead of Deafening Defense, sounds like a fair trade. The only thing I'd change in that build would be in the immortal tree, I'd to remove 1 point from Quake and put it on Unleashed, the 15 seconds can make a difference between a node cap and another and fire stuns in Huttball, with the amount of CC in this game, anything helps.

 

Now about the numbers you pasted, 427k damage in this spec? Without Shien? I don't really know if these numbers can be reached, most I ever got in a Voidstar was 212k on full Vindicator BM gear with the augmented War Hero Lightsaber. Maybe we just play differently, I could see us getting up to 300k damage if we focus on enemy healers all the time while guarding ours and throwing taunts around. But I tend to focus on not only guarding and taunting, I also stop my damage rotations when healers say they are being focused and I intercede back to them, then Force Push, Force Choke, chilling Scream and Intimidating Roar the DPS around him to buy him some time. This kind of game play won't allow you to do that much damage since damage is not the priority and it's situational. Plus there are times when I simply slow or stall people so they don't reinforce a node or in the tunnels in Voidstar, I spam chilling scream, force push those who pass by me and charge to root people, during these CC times I'm not doing any damage. I don't see how you can get up to 427K damage even in a voidstar match by playing like a tank should play, many DPS don't do that all the time.

 

Regardless, thanks for the build suggestion, I'll test it.

 

If you look at schwarzwalds immortal DPS spec thread, he was hitting 400k/100k on the 1.2 PTS in battlemaster gear. It's very much possible to do so, if not easier than it was before.

[carlosg]

Ok, maybe one day I'll get there . But I doubt, I worry less about stats and more about support. I feel that if I'm DPSing all the time with just a guard up I'm not doing my job correctly, I focus more on the objectives instead of damage. If playing like that I reach the 400k mark, then fine, I'll not be aiming for it desperately though, I'm a tank and support, damage is secondary. Edited June 18, 2012 by carlosg