(From Taugrim.com)SWTOR Has Repeated RIFT’s Mistakes in Endgame PVP

[Timadan]

That's not a pvp is broken issue though....

 

Well I'm sorry you cannot see the correlation between people leaving and pvp being what it is. Whether it's the lack of rated war zones, or the extremely short ttk, people are leaving because they are not having fun.

 

If people were enjoying the pvp in the game there would be no population issues.

[Xerain]

Well I'm sorry you cannot see the correlation between people leaving and pvp being what it is. Whether it's the lack of rated war zones, or the extremely short ttk, people are leaving because they are not having fun.

 

If people were enjoying the pvp in the game there would be no population issues.

 

people were leaving before those things.

 

 

I still fail to see this extremely short TTK issue... am i playing the same game? People die in the same amount of time as pre 1.2 in my experience and I seem to die just as fast, my damage numbers aren't over the top huge and they never have been, neither is my damage taken... strange... must just be when people focus fire you it seems like you're dying oh so fast.

[Sholagar]

He played a warrior early on and provided some very useful insights/strategies on how to play one well. I mostly encountered his Cleric in WZ, which I think became his main pvp-toon after they increased the ranks from 6 to 8. I wouldn't say he was the best pvper in Rift, but he had a calm, rational way of explaining things, never trash talked, and gave other players their due when he encountered good ones. I don't think you have to be a pvp-pro to contribute to the pvp-community, and he more than most was willing to do so.

 

And isn't it funny..... his detractors in this thread wouldn't give him props unless he's top 1% trash-talking foaming at the mouth leetdood.

 

he's not god or anything, but I used his advice both in this game and in Rift to do very well..... probably better than he did with his own classes. His advice and clarity is top notch.... I don't really care how he did PERSONALLY, but if his advice is spot-on and he has insights into the game that I had not thought of myself, then he has helped me regardless of his own performance. THAT is why he has alot of respect from me and alot of the people who use his advice and analysis.

 

The similarities between Rift and SWTOR PvP are astounding.... and the WORST one is this...... that rediculous lack of content. Rift has what, 6 warfronts after more than a year live? With very little consistent pvp found outside of those warfronts. Their WZs are bigger (15 v 15 and 40 v 40 i thinK?? ), but after awhile its SO DAMNED BORING. WZs in Rift, just like SWTOR, have little to no impact outside of their own existence, other than grinding you gear. I got my warrior to 36 in Rift and just could not stomach the boredom anymore..... it was bad bad bad and I feel the same way about Swtor now.

 

And thats how SWTOR is now, the maps are boring as hell after doing them for 5 months. There's nothing left but the equipment grind as motivation, and what happens when THATS gone??

[Dmasterr]

Well I'm sorry you cannot see the correlation between people leaving and pvp being what it is. Whether it's the lack of rated war zones, or the extremely short ttk, people are leaving because they are not having fun.

 

If people were enjoying the pvp in the game there would be no population issues.

 

People leave because of lack of content. Mindlessly grinding WZ farming gear is stale, repetitive and boring as crap.

 

Introduce arena and ranked WZ's along with crossserver, and the game will flourish.

 

Game balance is fine. TTK IS FINE. and again, ppl are leaving because there is nothing to do in this game.

[LarryRow]

You mean reflex? you do realize that there is a 1.5 seconds global cooldown which essential levels the playing field. (save for very few abilities that are off gcd)

 

This isn't starcraft where apm (actions per minute) and reflex actually matters.

 

If it takes longer than 1.5 seconds to translate thought into action,that is not normal and i suggest you visit your local physician.

 

 

 

There are plenty of skills that require insane twitch (and low latency). Interrupts, defensive cooldowns, targeting allies for guards, heals. Moving out of range of channels. Firing your cc breaker as soon as a cc fills your resolve. Leaping at or pulling someone who pushed you off a ledge/bridge. Notice anything? Yeah, these are things that many people agree can make a huge difference in a WZ match.

 

Your whole argument that someone can't have the credibility to comment on pvp balance if they are just average is flawed. What you should have said is that they must establish their credibility is some other acceptable way first. Maybe they've studied lots of metrics. Or have researched pvp development and interviewed developers. Etc.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Qishari
removed insult

[XakTsaroth]

I too have not experienced this short TTK since 1.2. I see that healers may not completely ignore me as a tank (in tanking gear) as they did prior to 1.2 and now have to try and kite me instead of simply standing there and absorbing or healing through my damage but that is all. They now have to play a little more aware of everything going on and manage resources more but the expertise change only seems to have made the PvE gear being used in PvP less for the most part. Perhaps we die a bit faster but I am not seeing it affect the gameplay overall. Also, the addition of Recruit gear I view as a good thing and believe the whole acquisition of PvP gear is improved over the prior system of random number generation from bags. If only folks would run the dailies as a fresh 50, get some cash and then buy the recruit gear prior to queing up for warzones. One can dream .

[Daxun]

people were leaving before those things.

 

 

I still fail to see this extremely short TTK issue... am i playing the same game? People die in the same amount of time as pre 1.2 in my experience and I seem to die just as fast, my damage numbers aren't over the top huge and they never have been, neither is my damage taken... strange... must just be when people focus fire you it seems like you're dying oh so fast.

 

I don't think there's much doubt that people across the board are dying faster. I'm not saying it's why people are leaving. Not saying it's a problem. But it's the truth.

 

The EXP change fixed exp to be 1:1 damage:mitigation. Before exp mitigated more damage than it buffed. Die faster

Healing nerfs to all but 1 healing class. Die faster

 

Add to it that the gear gap was supposed to be closed but the difference between recruit and WH is more than centurion to BM ever was...

 

Not everyone has the best defensive cooldowns in the game to use...

[flem]

He may not be THE best, (although a VERY good one, way above average), but he is the best mmo PvP analist,so to speak, that has ever taken the interest to help with so much commitment to the "mmo PvP community". He is always spot on.

The appeal to authority is nice, except he has his facts quite backwards here. 1.2 is far LESS grindy, not more.

 

I've been in a messing around mood with my Conqueror Gunslinger, so maybe I'll trade my usual loadout for a recruit armor set for a day or so and see how harsh it subjectively is... Being a fresh 50 was truly horrific before, though, and you had to endure the hazing for a lot longer than a week.

[dcgregorya]

The problem is that balancing between PVP and PVE is two separate beasts. PVE is balanced in combat logs. A marauder does more than a mercenary to make up for the fact that they spend less time dealing damage because of shortened range. PVP however is a whole different beast - because you have to look at things like how interruptable a mercenary is compared to a marauder. To balance the two you'd need the PVP gear to be different and you'd need balance across all the trees.

 

What I think Bioware did is paper balance all the specs against theoretical max DPS on a training dummy. They leveled each class to meet their PVE targets while totally ignoring PVP. They then tried to balance BM against Columni gear for whatever reason when they clearly should have nerfed Battlemaster to be 3% above what recruit is right now.

 

The gear levels should be 3% between every tier. This is the difference between Battlemaster and War Hero and you can definitely compete *just fine* in BM gear when fighting a WH geared person while still having a reason to want to grind out WH gear. Recruit gear is *WAY WAY too low in stats* and they don't want to increase the stats because they don't want to make purchasable gear that is better than Tionese. Common sense would dictate to nerf BM and WH down to a smidgeon above recruit but they won't do that.

[richardya]

Issue #1: A Full Set of Recruit Gear Simply Doesn’t Cut It

 

I agree, I have the datacrons and 1/2 war hero done and when I get in a warzone and see people with 5K less hp I assume they are using level 45 gear, then I inspect them and see that they did what they were supposed to do and have full recruit and some battlemaster pieces. I want an advantage for my gear but I am 19.5K HP fighting 13.5K and I am not a tank. This is way to big of a gap.

 

However, the amount of time to get full battlemaster is ridiculously short. During your recruit period you will not be playing 8 people in recruit vs 8 War Hero.

 

Issue #2: Class Compositions Influence Outcomes

 

I disagree. In huttball you are at a disadvantage if you do not have a mix. Otherwise, SWTOR only suffers from the need to have healers, just as every mmo does. I play a 2 50's and 1 40 and none of the OP specs and I always feel very competitive except for issue 1 which has nothing to do with class balance.

 

Issue #3: The Grind

 

I disagree. A "Grind" is what makes an MMO an MMO. They should reduce the benefits or raise recruit so it is not as needed though. (See point 1) Ranked will be fun though and offer a different incentive.

 

Issue #0: Server Populations

This is huge and they should make server mergers PRIORITY #1 and not transfers. Transfers before mergers will be a disaster. This is a real issue.

 

but he had a calm, rational way of explaining things, never trash talked, and gave other players their due when he encountered good ones. I don't think you have to be a pvp-pro to contribute to the pvp-community, and he more than most was willing to do so.

 

Exactly, anyone who streams is immediately called out for not being the top player. He is competing against everyone's image of themselves. An image that if they lose it is because of gear, teammates and classes and if they win it's because of their ability. That is difficult to compete with.

Edited May 21, 2012 by richardya

[cdogknight]

I agree that the gap between someone with recruit gear and warhero gear is too high. That being said I disagree with him when he says that pre 1.2 the game was balanced. This is just simply not true. Pre 1.2 healer sorcs/sages and troopers/bh would run around the war zones doing ridiculous healing. Ops and Scounds were less prevalent because their healing wasn't as good for pvp. Now that situation has been reversed and all the people that were benefiting from the imbalance are crying.

As for the gear grind he is completely right, but the reason for that is that bioware was planning on having ranked warzones where ranked commendations would be given out instead of wz commendations. Thats why it is so grindy. The main problem in my view with the game as a whole is the current loss of subscribers due to their server problem. They need to fix it immeadiately.

[Arkerus]

Issue #1: A Full Set of Recruit Gear Simply Doesn’t Cut It

 

I agree, I have the datacrons and 1/2 war hero done and when I get in a warzone and see people with 5K less hp I assume they are using level 45 gear, then I inspect them and see that they did what they were supposed to do and have full recruit and some battlemaster pieces. I want an advantage for my gear but I am 19.5K HP fighting 13K and I am not a tank. This is way to big of a gap.

 

Issue #2: Class Compositions Influence Outcomes

 

I disagree. In huttball you are at a disadvantage if you do not have a mix. Otherwise, SWTOR only suffers from the need to have healers, just as every mmo does. I play a 2 50's and 1 40 and none of the OP specs and I always feel very competitive except for issue 1 which has nothing to do with class balance.

 

Issue #3: The Grind

 

I disagree. A "Grind" is what makes an MMO an MMO. They should reduce the benefits or raise recruit so it is not as needed though. (See point 1) Ranked will be fun though and offer a different incentive.

 

Issue #0: Server Populations

This is huge and they should make server mergers PRIORITY #1 and not transfers. Transfers before mergers will be a disaster.

 

I like Taugrim. I think he has some awesome Trooper/BH specs.

 

However, I disagree with some of his assertions.

 

1. TTK is fine. This is "war" PvP, not a 1v1 cage fight.

2. The grind is ok as long as no one is locked out of gear.

 

 

He is correct about class composition. Of course it plays a big role! That can't be fixed and has existed in every MMO. Perhaps Bioware (after server merges) can start sorting teams when the queue is building.

 

Yes, we need merges and closure of the extra launch servers ASAP.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Arkerus

[pathiss]

 

From his "Gaming History" page it looks like he has played mmos for about 20 years as a PvPer, yet never been a top level player (or even high level).

 

This is true.

[pathiss]

I agree that the gap between someone with recruit gear and warhero gear is too high. That being said I disagree with him when he says that pre 1.2 the game was balanced. This is just simply not true. Pre 1.2 healer sorcs/sages and troopers/bh would run around the war zones doing ridiculous healing.

 

If you thought sorc/sage healers were OP before 1.2 you obviously had no clue how to use interrupts and what to interrupts. They were laughably easy to shut down.

[cdogknight]

If you thought sorc/sage healers were OP before 1.2 you obviously had no clue how to use interrupts and what to interrupts. They were laughably easy to shut down.

 

no... they weren't laughably easy. They weren't laughably easy largely because of what expertise did pre 1.2. Which was 1-1 damage and mitigation. Healing was far more useful in my opinion pre 1.2. Since 1.2 it has changed dramatically.

 

And yes sorc healers and troopers were far more useful pre 1.2 then they are now. Scoundrels are now the op healers in the game.

[cerberias]

Scoundrels/Op's were always the best healers - just they were also the least known and one of the harder classes to play. So many just stood still and tried to cast heal the entire time and got shut down hard - whereas the good ones benefitted more than the other healers from smart play like line of sighting, mobility and interrupt baiting.

[Gnugthreeonefive]

It's the old "Should there be gear disparity in PvP" debate.

 

Imho GW2 is doing it right going without one. If the game isn't fun enough to play without a gear carrot, it isn't fun enough to play.

[Khoraji]

It's the old "Should there be gear disparity in PvP" debate.

 

Imho GW2 is doing it right going without one. If the game isn't fun enough to play without a gear carrot, it isn't fun enough to play.

 

For people who dont like RPG's that is true. But for people who actually enjoy this genre, gear and improving your character is part of the fun.

[Zocat]

People leave because of lack of content. Mindlessly grinding WZ farming gear is stale, repetitive and boring as crap.

 

Introduce arena and ranked WZ's along with crossserver, and the game will flourish.

 

Game balance is fine. TTK IS FINE. and again, ppl are leaving because there is nothing to do in this game.

 

Definitely agree here.

"Oh recruit gear is soo bad compared to WH gear". Yeah, there's a difference. But it wouldnt matter if the PvP newbies would be matched against other PvP newbies with equal gear. And while slowly climbing the ranked "ladder" they would acquire gear to match their opponents.

It sucks now but as soon as ranked are implemented it's fine.

 

 

I also disagree with the whole "balance was better before 1.2".

He states himself: "pre-1.2 Watchman Sentinel/Annihilation Marauders, Shadow/Assassin 31-pt tanks, and Assault Spec Vanguards/Pyrotech Powertechs were overpowered, and Scoundrel/Operative healers were underpowered."

 

Looking at the DPS builds - basically nothing changed. People still think that marauders, assassins are a bit (or more) too strong. PyroPT got nerfed (no more tankstance).

The only real change is "The same healer playing a Sage/Sorc versus Operative/Scoundrel will heal much more effectively with the latter. "

Oh wait a moment .... Before 1.2 one of the healing classes was bad (scoundrel/op) and one was good (sage/sorc) and now it's just reversed. How does that make balance worse? Sure it was ****** before 1.2 but it's still the same ****. Not more ****.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Zocat

[Dmasterr]

It's the old "Should there be gear disparity in PvP" debate.

 

Imho GW2 is doing it right going without one. If the game isn't fun enough to play without a gear carrot, it isn't fun enough to play.

 

But... but, if there isn't any gear to farm, what will give bad players with lots of free time an advantage in pvp???

 

/sarcasm

[Alericus]

I think he has good points. If I can take anything away, and I have heard this repeatedly from other posters on the forums, the quality of the game overall after 1.2 isnt what they like. I wish he had more detailed suggestions because he has written well about the gear gap which Im sure the top pvpers like so i am not surprised when his comments are dismissed so out of hand. I was very lucky in getting all of my war hero gear but am so sorely disappointed in watching the pug teams Ive tried get slaughtered. I know its gear and the other reasons he has mentioned. Of course, the retort to this is "get on a premade", "learn to play"...etc etc The problem here is...thats not what will keep new players interested in pvp so the elites may very well soon be in a queue waiting forever. Either you make this game playable for all or leave it as is for the elites and it dies. Simple choice.

[mjohnsonfhk]

taugrim is usually pretty thought out. This just seems like a whine blog.

 

very few solid points.

 

And ya what kind of tard takes the WH weapon in lieu of full BM set ?

 

i mean this is just common sense.

[SWImara]

I always find Taugrim's stuff a worthwhile read, thanks OP.

[Khoraji]

taugrim is usually pretty thought out. This just seems like a whine blog.

 

very few solid points.

 

And ya what kind of tard takes the WH weapon in lieu of full BM set ?

 

i mean this is just common sense.

 

I would take the WH mainhand as well. You have to think ahead. It doesnt take long to get full BM. Yea you will suffer more at the beginning but if you convert all your rated to regular comms when you hit 50, you are essentially wasting 8000 wz comms.

[Stilly]

If gaming was a physical sport, then yes. coaches have the knowledge but lack the physical ability that comes with extensive training.

 

Sadly for him, and your bad analogy, gaming is all about knowledge and how to apply it. If he lacks that, he can't comment on game balance.

 

You see, physical sports are two dimensional, they require mental ability and physical ability. You may lack one and excel at another, Gaming however only has 1 dimension, mental ability . If you lack that, well you're screwed.

 

Stop posting in yellow you egomaniac.

 

Are you suggesting that someone with amazing hand eye coordination (physical ability) would perform on the same level as someone who can't walk and chew gum at the same time? In a game where reaction time is really the only difference between "good" and "bad"?

 

Anyone can comment on game balance. You don't have to agree with it but you can't spout nonsense as your reasoning for dismissing someones opinion.

 

I'd also like to agree with an earlier poster who said there are no pro gamers left in tor. Why the hell would there be? Comical that the pvp in Secret World is even better than this pile of ****.