PVE, the Melee/Range Bias, and what can be done

[GuyTallman]

Everyone who has played both a melee and a ranged class knows what I am talking about. There are some fights in the game with mechanics that increase the difficulty for melee while there are none that do so for range (at least not any that don't apply to melee as well.) A simple example of this would be a boss that does damage in the immediete area around it with no real means of avoiding it, save not being next to it and not doing damage. Think of Toth from Denova or the second boss from EV. You can't simply avoid the attacks when they come, it is a proposition of either standing there, doing damage, and taking a hit.

 

My biggest problem with this mechanic is 2 fold. First, it pointedly bias towards a specific group and secondly that it is unimaginative and simply not fun. There are plenty of mechanics you can use to force the DPS to potentially take damage, that effect both melee and ranged equally, as well making the fight more interactive.

 

A great example of this would be the Mentor Assassin Droids or Krel Thak. The damage shield that returns damage is an inventive way to give out damage to the dps (healers need something to do) while giving the damage classes control over this, forcing them to be more engaged in the fight, and affecting ranged and melee classes equally.

 

If you can't be bothered to break from the melee ranged AE boss mechanic, then why not at least give the melee some way of adressing this.

-give mission items that act as melee range interupts for specific melee range effects

-have bosses use cone attacks that would allow the players to position and dodge

-give mission items to ranged characters that can be used to mitigate effects of boss AE done to melee

 

The fact of the matter is, that at the moment, any instance can be cleared with less difficulty by simply bringing all ranged damage classes. This is because of poor fight mechanics placing a direct disincentive on a particular type of character. The worst part about it is, it is relatively easy to fix, it just requires that designers not be lazy or afraid to stray from the "generic" mmo model. I realize that this problem is endemic in almost every game, just hoped it would be different here.

[Kalfear]

Yeah sorry your wrong!

 

My trooper is 99% range and im constantly getting rushed and crowded by NPC mobs.

 

Go fight a Sith as a ranged character and see how well you do with dang thing bouncing all over the place so you cant lay down any "mortar", fight some dog like critter that constant bumps and stuns you.

 

There is some fights I do amazing in as NPC just stands there and lets me domy worst but there are other fights where I just want to stock strike them to death cause everything else is interupted or moved away from.

 

There is fights where the ranged character at a real disadvantage. (those are the fun fights btw)

[LeperJack]

Yeah sorry your wrong!

 

My trooper is 99% range and im constantly getting rushed and crowded by NPC mobs.

 

Go fight a Sith as a ranged character and see how well you do with dang thing bouncing all over the place so you cant lay down any "mortar", fight some dog like critter that constant bumps and stuns you.

 

There is some fights I do amazing in as NPC just stands there and lets me domy worst but there are other fights where I just want to stock strike them to death cause everything else is interupted or moved away from.

 

There is fights where the ranged character at a real disadvantage. (those are the fun fights btw)

 

Uhm... Are you talking about PvE leveling? Because He's talking about endgame bossfights. I don't recall a lot of fights where ranged is getting "swarmed by NPCs" simply because it's the (off)tank's job to ensure that doesn't happen. Please read the entirety of the original post and try to stay on topic.

[Kalfear]

Uhm... Are you talking about PvE leveling? Because He's talking about endgame bossfights. I don't recall a lot of fights where ranged is getting "swarmed by NPCs" simply because it's the (off)tank's job to ensure that doesn't happen. Please read the entirety of the original post and try to stay on topic.

 

I did, maybe you should take your own advice

 

Title is about PVE

PVE, the Melee/Range Bias, and what can be done

 

Opening and closeing lines about PVE

Everyone who has played both a melee and a ranged class knows what I am talking about. There are some fights in the game with mechanics that increase the difficulty for melee while there are none that do so for range (at least not any that don't apply to melee as well.)

 

The fact of the matter is, that at the moment, any instance can be cleared with less difficulty by simply bringing all ranged damage classes. This is because of poor fight mechanics placing a direct disincentive on a particular type of character. The worst part about it is, it is relatively easy to fix, it just requires that designers not be lazy or afraid to stray from the "generic" mmo model. I realize that this problem is endemic in almost every game, just hoped it would be different here.

 

Boss is used as a example as APART OF THE WHOLE ISSUE

A simple example of this would be a boss that does damage in the immediete area around it with no real means of avoiding it, save not being next to it and not doing damage. .

 

Next time you wanna spout at someone, make sure you know what your spouting off about!

Edited May 18, 2012 by Kalfear

[Azumio]

I did, maybe you should take your own advice

 

Title is about PVE

 

 

Opening and closeing lines about PVE

 

 

Boss is used as a example as APART OF THE WHOLE ISSUE

 

 

Next time you wanna spout at someone, make sure you know what your spouting off about!

 

Use common-sense, silly.

 

Obviously he's talking about in groups. Everyone is a tank in solo PvE play and therefore Melee or Range doesn't matter.

 

That I had to explain this is.. Nevermind.

[GuyTallman]

Yeah sorry your wrong!

 

My trooper is 99% range and im constantly getting rushed and crowded by NPC mobs.

 

Go fight a Sith as a ranged character and see how well you do with dang thing bouncing all over the place so you cant lay down any "mortar", fight some dog like critter that constant bumps and stuns you.

 

There is some fights I do amazing in as NPC just stands there and lets me domy worst but there are other fights where I just want to stock strike them to death cause everything else is interupted or moved away from.

 

There is fights where the ranged character at a real disadvantage. (those are the fun fights btw)

 

Because constant knockbacks isn't equally detrimental to a melee? See what I said at the start. Mechanics either work against melee and ranged, or just melee.

 

To clarify, for the most part I was discussing end game boss fights, as that is what all my examples were.

 

Still, I have a 50 merc, and a 30 sniper, so I feel pretty confident when I say that, even during leveling, this is pretty prevalent.

[GnatB]

He has a (small) point. Some of the ranged classes attacks have a minimum range, and thus being forced to fight in melee range is more detrimental to some ranged classes than it is (obviously) to melee characters.

 

That being said, from what I remember, on all my ranged characters I still have potent melee range attacks that are more than enough to compensate for the inability to use those few attacks with a minimum range. (or ways to stun the creature long enough to back up to where I can use the ability with a minimum range), in fact, I frequently close to melee range with my "ranged" characters precisely because of this.

[ShadowOfVey]

These are sensible points. It's true that this has been an issue in other games as well.

 

Not sure why this is in the pvp forum though.

[V-Serp]

These are sensible points. It's true that this has been an issue in other games as well.

 

Not sure why this is in the pvp forum though.

 

That is what I was wondering too.

[Derian]

I did, maybe you should take your own advice

 

Title is about PVE

 

 

Opening and closeing lines about PVE

 

 

Boss is used as a example as APART OF THE WHOLE ISSUE

 

 

Next time you wanna spout at someone, make sure you know what your spouting off about!

 

LOL At complaining about being ranged in PVE. Oh no the enemy swarms you!

[Annex]

I agree Operative DPS is OPd. Edited May 19, 2012 by Notannos
moderated quote

[zeshakha]

I played a commando dps first, and have a sentinel alt. Toth and Zorn are a pain to be sure (have only healed this, never gone on my sent), but every other boss people complain about being "melee unfriendly" are easily dealt with. You gave the example of not being able to dodge the second boss of EV (Gharj?)... well actually you can. You lose about 2 seconds of dps which isn't that big of a deal considering he has a huge hitbox and if you stand near the outside you can walk out for the pound and walk right back in.

 

Maybe I'm just used to seeing the fight from the healing perspective and have picked up tricks from the people I have to heal... but being a melee dps really isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be (again, speaking from EV and KP. My sentinel has never been through EC and I agree that Toth and Zorn are a pain for melee).

Edited May 20, 2012 by zeshakha

[hankart]

Wow, I understand PVE in this game is fun. Wouldn't want to do anything but PVE. PVE is the best! Lets all PVE!

[Macroecon]

There are some fights in the game with mechanics that increase the difficulty for melee while there are none that do so for range

 

EVERY PvE fight starts out with the ranged dps at a disadvantage. Because on a raw dps basis, the melee does 20-40% more dps than the ranged. If a boss fight does not introduce a dynamic that specifically penalizes melee dps, then it is by default biased.

 

And yes I play a Marauder and a Merc.

[Aethyriel]

I can live with the mechanics on bossfights although it would be nice to see more ailities from bosses to melees that can be avoided, but I really really really hate all the knockbacks by every single trashmob in the entire game in any fp or op. I mean, take Toth and ZZorn were mentioned and it's a pretty good example - you dps zorn you get insane amounts of dmg when the leap hits, unless you charge at toth or something like that or you dps on toth and you constantly take ae dmg for absolutey no good reason but wanting your grp to have a ranged instead of melee there.

 

Soa is another example (mostly because of the bug that you can't charge him after the first phase unless you get thrown into a mind trap first) - you lose all dps while going to the orb or dpsing a mind trap in the last phase, on third boss denova you can't really do anything but dps the probe and you get constantly knocked back by the boss for, once again, absolutely no good reason and you have to run to and back from the turrets should you dps them while a ranged just stands there laughing at you.

 

There is simply next to no challenge for ranged besides running out of flashing red circles about two times per fight and they put next to no stress on healers. This could maybe all be a bit less stressful on healers if melee had a talent allowing them to be healed for more by others or the make most abilities that affect only melee dodgable like any boss mechanic for ranged dps.

[Kerbs]

EVERY PvE fight starts out with the ranged dps at a disadvantage. Because on a raw dps basis, the melee does 20-40% more dps than the ranged. If a boss fight does not introduce a dynamic that specifically penalizes melee dps, then it is by default biased.

 

And yes I play a Marauder and a Merc.

 

20-40% hey.... care to back that up with numbers for ranged/melee

[Macroecon]

20-40% hey.... care to back that up with numbers for ranged/melee

 

Multiple people posted target dummy dps numbers immediately after 1.2 was released. Ranged dps were coming in around the 1050-1150 range. Top melee dps are hitting 1500 with similar equipment. Now that many toons have improved Tier 3 gear, those numbers have shifted slightly higher, but the hierarchy remains the same. Melee dps > ranged dps. Unless some ingame mechanic is introduced to discomfort melee dps there is no reason to bring ranged dps along.

[dcgregorya]

I'm all in favor of increasing the amount of punishment to ranged but I'd like to point out that a marauder does about 30% base more damage than a sniper for a reason...it's to cover time when you need to back up out of the AOE areas.

 

My only real melee complain is for scrappers/operatives who lack a gap closer and who are constantly punished by facing mechanics (such as not being able to use backstab/hidden strike on Infernal Council).

[chuixupu]

I started out as a dps Operative. Fights became pretty miserable in NMM. Then I switched to Sniper and it was like night and day. Being ranged is not only easier, it's easier on everyone else, including the healers, which I've also done.

 

There are some cases where ranged are punished. I'd say melee have it pretty easy on Foreman crusher; the rocks seem to favor ranged. Firebrand and Stormcaller - whatever ranged person on the ground isn't very happy. Toth and Zorn is definitely a crap fight for melee, but it's no walk in the park for ranged either.

 

But really, the game mechanics do seem to hate melee more IMO. So many bosses with knockbacks, AOE, leaping and running around, etc..

 

I am talking about bosses here, not soloing, not pvp.

[So-low]

The Damage numbers reported on the Target Dummies are skewed because it has Maras/Sents hitting for 100% with both weapons, but in reality - in boss fights - they do not hit anywhere close to that.

 

The damage output of ranged/melee classes are about the same in a boss fight (not counting gear/skill, etc).

 

There is a -huge- bias for ranged classes! This is true for almost every fight. Lost Island HM and EV especially. In fact the mechanics of instances completely change for the worse if there are too many melee.

[chuixupu]

I think what he meant is that Operative dps are *Operatived*, synonymous with "nerfed to hell"

[hankart]

Nerf the OP the Operatives OK!

[MimicUnleashed]

This is also the basis of why I'm really upset at some of the skill point issues with Guardian/Jugg and Vanguard/Power Tech DPS trees. There is no AOE damage reduction in them for the DPS specs. So throw a Marauder and a Jugg DPS at the same target and the Marauder takes 30% less damage. And they have more defensive cooldowns (better ones too) and you see the issue pretty clearly. AOE damage reduction is a must talent for PVE melee when AOE is the go-to of punishing melee. Just seems that that talent sort of evens out the difficulty levels in terms of movement and such.

 

Like if a Sniper has to stop, take cover and shoot, then when they move they have less damage because they are moving. Most BH/Trooper dps needs to channel their damage. Same with Sorc/Sage. But they don't take "required damage" because they don't have talents to allow them to shave some of that off. But a couple melee specs have to take it all in the face. Just doesn't seem right to me.

[AshlaBoga]

The issue is that Melee right now is at least as good as Ranged in PvP.

So they have to solve the PvE bias without unbalancing PvP. I think part of the problem is that currently Melee DPS take way more damage in boss fights than ranged do. The solution to this is NOT to nerf the melee damage, and it is NOT to double the ranged damage.

 

 

 

P.S: For the record I have only done 50 or so WZs and then I quit since they got boring - same 3 battlegrounds over and over..

[DenitharPurloin]

I can only speak to what I play, and that is Gunslinger and Sentinel. I believe my DPS comes out around the same on bosses that are not melee friendly. I may be off a bit on one or the other, but this is how I see it (adjust class for faction):

 

My Gunslinger does not do quite as much damage to start with, on bosses where I need to move a lot, I quickly fall behind my Sentinel in DPS.

 

My Sentinel does more DPS, on bosses where only the melee need to move a lot...I still do about the same DPS as my Gunslinger. I just learn when and where to move, and then get back to the fight when appropriate.