[Guide] Reverse Engineering

[zerobounds]

I have crafted some tier 2 items that have a suffix of (Superior). What is the significance of this?

 

http://www.lonestranger.net/swtor/re/SWTOR_RE_GUIDE.png

[SdS_Garret]

Rating only improves with color quality. What the chart says is that an Artifact item receives increased rating if the item it is upgraded from is Prototype, which is the same thing the guide says. In other words, any time you reverse engineer an item and it goes up in quality, the rating improves as well. Because Artifact items reverse engineer into other Artifacts if anything, they do not receive rating increases.

 

In short: Rating is tied to color, not Tier.

 

 

Ah thanks.. looked at the chart again and see what you mean.. makes sense...

 

Still REing some lvl 50 items seems dumb:

 

my lvl 49 armor pieces (starting green) get ~124 rating at artifact

my lvl 50 armor piece (starting blue) gets ~120 rating at artifact

 

thats just dumb

Its not Gamebreaking but it just dont make sense to RE lvl 50s then.

 

thank you for the answer anyway.

Edited January 24, 2012 by SdS_Garret

[Quilious]

I'd like to add some information.

(Note: this applies to 40+ items only)

 

RE'ing an item from green quality to blue adds 10 rating.

RE'ing an item from blue quality to purple adds 8 rating.

 

The issue with the level 50 world drop primeval recipes is that their blues start at 116 rating.

Since they only get rating upgraded once, it adds 8, making the final rating 124. The vendor learned recipes start at 108(green) or 118(blue), making that final value 126.

 

I'd like to see this changed having the dropped level 50 schematics changed to a base of 118 rating, or have the act of upgrading an artifact continue to add rating.

[Quilious]

I saw the rakata critical craft SS.

 

Has anyone been able to confirm a RE prefix upgrade as of yet?

I'm currently 0/2, but will post if I get one.

[GeekGrrly]

So a question for clarity:

 

Rating only affects the armor rating of armor and the damage of a weapon.

Is there anything else that it affects, ever, that we know of in the entire game?

 

Thanks! =)

[Xailiax]

I noticed that I sometimes will go straight from a blue item to a T2 Purple Item [with suffix!] just from reverse engineering the prototypes I built. Is that somehow built into critically succeeding a RE or something?

[Metari]

I just wanted to say, great article. I specifically found the section talking about the RE of blue to artifact for tier 1 then RE the artifact to artifact for tier 2 prefix very enlightening, I probably would never have tried that on my own.

 

Now if only there was a way to guarantee RE success. Has anyone found that grouping with players increased their success?

[rivnen]

Slaign

if i RE crafted Columi Implant i can learn Rakata implant?

 

No.

 

I noticed that I sometimes will go straight from a blue item to a T2 Purple Item [with suffix!] just from reverse engineering the prototypes I built. Is that somehow built into critically succeeding a RE or something?

 

This cannot happen, what you actually saw was the RE of tier 1 recipe that you received from RE a green. Check again.

[Kazefett]

using attesmythes spreadsheet as a template came up with an excel spreadsheet of my own, but dont know how to link, do i need to use google docs then link or another way? anyone that can help much appreciated

 

Just make it public (without editing permission) in google docs, then post the link

[BronzeKnight]

I'd like to add some information.

(Note: this applies to 40+ items only)

 

RE'ing an item from green quality to blue adds 10 rating.

RE'ing an item from blue quality to purple adds 8 rating.

 

The issue with the level 50 world drop primeval recipes is that their blues start at 116 rating.

Since they only get rating upgraded once, it adds 8, making the final rating 124. The vendor learned recipes start at 108(green) or 118(blue), making that final value 126.

 

I'd like to see this changed having the dropped level 50 schematics changed to a base of 118 rating, or have the act of upgrading an artifact continue to add rating.

 

 

 

Does this mean that the artifact L49 armors (that started as greens) have a higher rating than the artifact L50 armors (that started as blues) and therefor more armor?

[Slaign]

Remember that rating only effects Armor or Damage.

 

While it's true that Armor and Damage are important to certain classes, other classes really won't care. A Sorcerer or Sage for instance won't greatly benefit from higher armor or higher weapon damage, as they remain safely out of the fight at range, and do not use their weapons in combat. Especially for healers.

 

For classes that do care about Armor and Damage values that come from rating, it's important to understand that while these stats matter, they are of significantly less value than primary and even advanced stats. If a piece of armor has less Armor Value because of a lower rating, but has higher Endurance, Shield, or Defense, you very likely may still come out on top. A weapon with lower base damage, but with higher Strength/Cunning/Aim, Critical, Alacrity, Surge, Power, or Accuracy, may end up doing more damage than it's higher rating brethren.

 

I don't know the math to theorycraft an example, or provide assurances that this is actually the case. I can't assure you that the items you are worrying over are not in fact improperly balanced. All I can do is remind you that stats play a heavy role on your efficacy as a character, where as ratings provide a basis upon which to build.

 

A higher rating will always be more desirable all else being equal, but it is important to remember all else will not always be equal.

[Anavarra]

Hey Slaign!

I'm glad you brought that up, because I just wanted to share some information on how Reverse Engineered items exceed normal item budgets on max-level gear! Let's dive right in, shall we?

 

Two things to understand going in:

- All items are built with a certain stat budget in mind, and for BASE ITEMS, the “Item Rating” is a good judge of the overall value of the item.

- As we’ll see below, Reverse Engineered Items completely ignore normal stat budgets because they add fixed amounts of extra stats to the item, sometimes without increasing its Item Rating.

 

The way Reverse Engineering adds stats to an item is deterministic, and is based on three factors, the Rating and Quality of the base item, and the stat budget of the item. The first two of these factors are usually fairly easy to figure out, based on the item itself. The third one is obvious once you know it.

 

Basically, there are 3 different stat budgets for equipable items.

- Weapon/Chest/Helm/Legs

- Gloves/Boots/Earpieces/Implants

- Bracers/Boots

 

In other words, for any given base item, if it fits in one of these slots, it will likely have a very similar amount of stats on it, compared to any other item in the same category. Weapons are a bit of an exception, because of their inherent +Force Power or +Tech Power, but factoring that out, the itemization comparison still works.

 

In most cases, this understanding is purely academic, but when comparing gear at end game, it can be useful to understand exactly how much better an item will be once improved through RE. Thus, knowing the slot of the item, and the quality and rating of the base item, it is possible to guarantee the following, based on my own observations of patterns that I’ve learned and seen available.

 

Premium Base Item |Rating 108 | Stat Budget: Chest/Helm/Legs/Weapon

T1 upgrade -> Prototype Item | Rating 118 | +43 to T1 stat

T2 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 126 | +5 to T1 stat, +48 to T2 stat

 

Premium Base Item |Rating 108 | Stat Budget: Gloves/Boots/Earpieces/Implants

T1 upgrade -> Prototype Item | Rating 118 | +35 to T1 stat

T2 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 126 | +5 to T1 stat, +40 to T2 stat

 

Premium Base Item |Rating 108 | Stat Budget: Bracers/Belts

T1 upgrade -> Prototype Item | Rating 118 | +22 to T1 stat

T2 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 126 | +3 to T1 stat, +28 to T2 stat

 

Prototype Base Item | Rating 118 | Stat Budget: Gloves/Boots/Earpieces/Implants

T1 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 126 | +40 to T1 stat

T2 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 126 | +40 to T2 stat

 

Prototype Base Item | Rating 118 | Stat Budget: Bracers/Belts

T1 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 126 | +25 to T1 Stat

T2 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 126 | +28 to T2 Stat

 

Premium Base Item | Rating 106 | Stat Budget: Chest/Helm/Legs/Weapon

T1 upgrade -> Prototype Item | Rating 116 | +41 to T1 stat

T2 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 124 | +6 to T1 stat, +47 to T2 stat

 

Prototype Base Item | Rating 116 | Stat Budget: Chest/Helm/Legs/Weapon

T1 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 124 | +47 to T1 stat

T2 upgrade -> Artifact Item | Rating 124 | +47 to T2 stat

 

 

 

What’s particularly interesting about this data table is that, looking closely, it’s easy to see that, regardless of the base quality of the item, T2 Artifacts of the same rating will always receive the same amount of additional stats. In other words, the stat gain from Reverse Engineering to Tier 2 is the same for all items of the same final rating and stat budget, regardless of the quality of the base item.

 

The conclusion then, since higher quality items have more stats on them to begin with, is that the higher the quality of the base item, the “better” the final T2 item will be. Another interesting inference is that, based on this, it seems like it would be easy to extend the RE system to base Artifact items, though no confirmed reports of RE success with base artifacts exists yet (I'm trying!).

 

I'm not going to clutter this post with lengthy comparisons of RE items to Operations gear. However, I can guarantee that, anyone who spends some time using these stat upgrade paths to compare T2 RE recipes based on Prototype 116 or 118 items, to Operations gear will quickly realize that the crafted gear is, in all cases, superior to Tionese gear (and all other 126 Artifacts), and, with Augments, on par with Columi gear, regardless of what the item level on the Crafted Piece may be.

[BronzeKnight]

That is some awesome info Anavarra.

 

All we need now is to be able to RE base artifacts and when combined with augments we can make armor/weapons better than the Rakata stuff.

 

AS IT SHOULD BE!

[SdS_Garret]

Remember that rating only effects Armor or Damage.

 

While it's true that Armor and Damage are important to certain classes, other classes really won't care. A Sorcerer or Sage for instance won't greatly benefit from higher armor or higher weapon damage, as they remain safely out of the fight at range, and do not use their weapons in combat. Especially for healers.

 

For classes that do care about Armor and Damage values that come from rating, it's important to understand that while these stats matter, they are of significantly less value than primary and even advanced stats. If a piece of armor has less Armor Value because of a lower rating, but has higher Endurance, Shield, or Defense, you very likely may still come out on top. A weapon with lower base damage, but with higher Strength/Cunning/Aim, Critical, Alacrity, Surge, Power, or Accuracy, may end up doing more damage than it's higher rating brethren.

 

I don't know the math to theorycraft an example, or provide assurances that this is actually the case. I can't assure you that the items you are worrying over are not in fact improperly balanced. All I can do is remind you that stats play a heavy role on your efficacy as a character, where as ratings provide a basis upon which to build.

 

A higher rating will always be more desirable all else being equal, but it is important to remember all else will not always be equal.

 

understood and right for most of the classes.

 

Coming from WoW, there mitigation was kind of the prime stat in tanking, it just wasnt really an option. Since late BC or beginning WOTLK (dunno exactly) they scrapped the model of "bonus armor" on items. So every Item had a fixed amount depending on the Ilvl and armorclass. Mitigation WAS important but it was kinda "normalized" (of course.. higher ilvl = higher mitigation and so on).

 

If that applies to SW:Tor too and i see no reason why not (as the mechanics are mostly the same) the additional armor points are pretty important. It sums up pretty good and at least for Juggernaut and Assasin i know that they boost them up a good portion (Jugger: 60%, assassin: 150%) dunno about Bountyhunters.

 

So just returning to the point that it only really affects tanks its just a simple but imho "needed" or atleast helpful fix for these classes.

 

I actually always enjoyed that additional benefit while leveling to 50. Because i never cared about what T2 prefix i got, the additional armor always helped anyway.

 

still i agree its not gamebreaking. But raise it up to 128 and no one will probably mention it anymore. In a quick comparison it just sucks to see a lvl 50 Tank item with less rating than a 49 Tank item (same quality level).

[Baldoran]

anyone else had the message "schmeatic already known " after RE'ing an item ?

 

i RE'ed Redoubt Powered Ultramesh Helmet like 100 times , got 2 epic schematics and 3 times "schmeatic already known " and it's very annoying

 

I started with the lowest Synthweaving schematic on the list - Savant Sash - and counted how much effort it has taken me to get the complete list. I am at 250 creation and subsequent reverse engineering and I am still short 3 schematics. I have received the "schematic already known" message about 12 times so far. Just this morning when RE'ing 30 items I received it 3 times. I'm just glad I went for the cheapest item on the list.

[KyaniteD]

Is it known if the RE'd items have to be crafted by yourself to have the chance of getting an improved schematic?

 

The situation is that I have several items crafted by someone else. I have the schematics and the level to craft these, too, and I wonder if I could learn an improved schematic through RE'ing them even if they're not mine.

[JTStreet]

I have a couple somewhat specific questions in regards to an item I'm believing will outperform my current melee weapon. I'm Shadow DPS.

 

Yesterday, I received The Shadowsaber from Kragga's Palace. It got me thinking as to whether or not I can create a wieldable from artifice that will outperform it.

 

The item I have in mind is Truthseeker.

 

First and foremost, in order to be even remotely viable, the Truthseeker would have to be crafted as exceptional (having an augment slot) and moreover the ENDOWMENT variant (+43 Crit, +43 Surge) would have to be (randomly, I assume) crafted as well.

 

My biggest question is whether or not the Truthseeker can be reverse engineered in order to learn a better recipe. As it requires Biometric Crystal Alloys to craft, I'm very hesitant to waste a reverse engineer if there is NOT a discoverable upgrade.

 

Also, as Shadow DPS, I assume with the additional augment slot, hilt, and endowment variant will make up for the difference in base damage (Shadowstalker having a base damage range of 363-544 (lvl 136) compared to the Truthseeker having 308-462(lvl 120) difference. Also, assume I will be pulling out the level 56 modifications from the Shadowstalker and putting them in the Truthseeker.

 

Sorry for wall of text, but hopefully someone will be able to steer me on the right track!

[Anavarra]

still i agree its not gamebreaking. But raise it up to 128 and no one will probably mention it anymore. In a quick comparison it just sucks to see a lvl 50 Tank item with less rating than a 49 Tank item (same quality level).

 

At 50, the armor really doesn't matter. The armor difference between a 124 Artifact and a 126 Artifact is negligible (7 for Light Armor, 9 for Medium, 8 for Heavy). But the stats on a T2 124 Artifact are so much more that the minor loss of armor is a moot point.

 

Let me give you an example.

Take these TT-17A Elite Vanguard Legplates

Upgrade them using the stat values I posted above too...

Veracity TT-17A Elite Vanguard Legplates [superior]

764 Armor (Rating 124)

+82 Endurance

+52 Aim

+32 Accuracy Rating

+24 Absorption Rating

+47 Defense Rating

+47 Shield Rating

 

And compare them too...

Tionese Supercommando's Body Armor

776 Armor (Rating 126)

+102 Endurance

+88 Aim

+40 Accuracy Rating

+23 Absorption Rating

 

So, if you equip the crafted piece the stat variance is:

- 8 Armor

- 20 Endurance

- 36 Aim

- 8 Accuracy

+ 1 Absorption Rating

+ 47 Defense Rating

+ 47 Shield Rating

 

I don't much care about the lost Aim and Accuracy (a minor loss of threat stats), but I'll take 47 Defense, 47 Shield and an extra 1 absorption over a piddling 8 armor and 20 Endurance any day.

 

You can do the same comparison with an T2 Crafted Artifact that started from a Premium item, like the items which begin as Premium 108 and end up at 126. In all scenarios, the T2 item based on a Prototype 116 item will have more stats, simply because a Prototype 116 item starts with more stats than a Premium 108, and the stat gain through RE is nearly the same.

[Adalace]

A larger version of the flow chart would be nice.

The PNG format helps a lot since it will stay fairly clear when zooming a little at least.

[lordbeany]

Is it known if the RE'd items have to be crafted by yourself to have the chance of getting an improved schematic?

 

The situation is that I have several items crafted by someone else. I have the schematics and the level to craft these, too, and I wonder if I could learn an improved schematic through RE'ing them even if they're not mine.

 

i asked that as well here

 

 

 

short answer is...no one can 'prove' they did or did not but those that responded did not have good success with it.

 

also, thanks for the detailed breakdown Anavarra, that was very helpful.

Edited January 25, 2012 by lordbeany

[Chiisaikage]

I wish I had taken a screenshot as I immediately thought of this great thread. I read this thread about the doubt on whether vibroknives could indeed be RE'd to obtain better schematics a few weeks ago but I had thought that by now any doubt would have been cleared up due to the massive following for this/your thread.

 

2-3 weeks ago I was at fleet (Imperial) when I saw someone posting a PURPLE vibroknife with a suffix in general chat for sale. I immediately sent them a whisper asking if that was a trainer recipe, a drop, or a RE obtained recipe. They informed me that it was a recipe obtained by RE'ing a green obtained from the Armstech trainer.

 

They told me that it took (they counted) 97 greens to get the blue recipe, and then only 7 blues to get the purple recipe after that.

 

"I" gave up after 150 greens before I met/encountered that person but it seems that YOU CAN RE a vibroknife and get other schematics the same way you can for the other Armstech crafted weapons.

 

 

Just FYI for everyone. Take care!

 

 

(If this was already noted in another post I apologize, I just didn't have time to read them all to be sure before posting)

[Goshee]

Good find Chii, that should clear things up hopefully!

[Slaign]

I wish I had taken a screenshot as I immediately thought of this great thread. I read this thread about the doubt on whether vibroknives could indeed be RE'd to obtain better schematics a few weeks ago but I had thought that by now any doubt would have been cleared up due to the massive following for this/your thread.

 

2-3 weeks ago I was at fleet (Imperial) when I saw someone posting a PURPLE vibroknife with a suffix in general chat for sale. I immediately sent them a whisper asking if that was a trainer recipe, a drop, or a RE obtained recipe. They informed me that it was a recipe obtained by RE'ing a green obtained from the Armstech trainer.

 

They told me that it took (they counted) 97 greens to get the blue recipe, and then only 7 blues to get the purple recipe after that.

 

"I" gave up after 150 greens before I met/encountered that person but it seems that YOU CAN RE a vibroknife and get other schematics the same way you can for the other Armstech crafted weapons.

 

 

Just FYI for everyone. Take care!

 

 

(If this was already noted in another post I apologize, I just didn't have time to read them all to be sure before posting)

 

It's possible this was bugged and fixed without BioWare mentioning it. I'd like to hear more reports before I change the guide. How about it Armstechs, wanna do some testing?

 

Also, I've had people tell me that Cybertech modifications can be critically crafted, yet these people never provide details. So, Cybertechs, can you give me your experiences on this?

[Pherdnut]

@armstech - I've got plenty of Desh collecting dust. I'll give it a shot tonight.

 

@RE difficulty - I'm not sure. It seems harder, but not impossible. However, I've gotten random unexpected REs from yellow difficulty items which seemed like it hardly ever happened in the past. Or maybe random is just random.

 

Green to blue feels a little too hard for the lvl 30+ blaster pistols though. I'm usually two levels above min when I finally get any purple (rarely the one I want) and that's with a fair amount of stopping to focus on crafting and then questing when Mission Skilling taps all my credits. I started REing for the last set of pistol 2-3 levels before minimum. Blues should be easy at green/gray difficulty.

 

DEV suggestion: If stuff can't RE, it would be awfully nice to get some indicator.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Pherdnut

[Pherdnut]

2-3 weeks ago I was at fleet (Imperial) when I saw someone posting a PURPLE vibroknife with a suffix in general chat for sale. I immediately sent them a whisper asking if that was a trainer recipe, a drop, or a RE obtained recipe. They informed me that it was a recipe obtained by RE'ing a green obtained from the Armstech trainer.

 

It occurs to me that maybe it's a bug but possible to RE from blue found/purchased schematics to purple (I thought it had something to do with balance between dual-weapon and non-dual classes). I'll try this too. I think I got one for a shotgun recently.

 

Also pretty sure I REd a recipe from an acquired rather than self-crafted item (you can get a crafting schem for it, but I hadn't learned it).

Edited January 25, 2012 by Pherdnut