Can SWTOR be Saved ?

[Drunkenpig]

Bye guys. One week to go and I wont be resubbing until I see them fix their population issue, at a minimum.

I'm playing Tera.

[Jalez]

Answering Swaggz question about Guild Wars 2

 

Yes Guild Wars 2 has gear/armor and it does matter, however its not going to win you fights, only your/your guilds skill will win fights.

 

Competition is the "Carrot" in MMO games like Dark Age of Camelot , Guild Wars 2 and Elder Scrolls Online. The carrot is logging in and seeing that your guild still has ownership of a keep/tower/castle.....The carrot is logging in and queing up for SPvP in GW2 and seeing how good you are versus other guilds, this is true for WvWvW and RvR in DAoC and GW2 as well....and with gear not winning fights for people, it creates a much more balanced field for gauging where you stand in the PvP Endgame in those games

Edited May 18, 2012 by Jalez

[Jalez]

My answer to the OP is this:

 

No this game cannot be saved for people that have any MMO experience in their past, as practically every MMO Ive ever played is better than SWtoR in every way except for voice acting (lol).

 

The only people that will stay subbed to this game are either "hardcore star wars fans" or people that SWtoR is their first MMO. It's really that simple.

 

Im playing Dark Age of Camelot (10 year old MMO that is leaps and bounds better than SWtoR) until Guild Wars 2 comes out, then Im getting in the ESO beta as that game is being designed by Matt Firor, co-creator of Dark Age of Camelot and he knows how to make Endgame PvP/RvR fun and addicting.

[DarthTHC]

I think there's some potential for the game to eventually start seeing an increase in subscriptions.

 

Next week, BioWare will tell us more about how the free transfers will work (SR Tweet).

 

Sometime in the next couple months, BioWare will release the free transfers and the LFG tool. This will result in servers with higher populations and easier ways of finding groups, which will help players feel like they're playing an MMO.

 

About that time, BioWare will probably give everyone who cancelled a free weekend or week or 2 weeks to come back and try it. They should see some returned subscriptions about that time.

 

Hopefully shortly after that, BioWare will issue another content release and again invite former players to come back and play again.

 

If BioWare continues down the path of improving features and content while periodically inviting former players back, the game will grow from whatever it bottoms-out at.

 

That's what the hopeful side of me says, anyway.

[NastyPagan]

Agreeing with people who hate on the game? Do you seriously expect anyone to take a person such as you seriously? Tell me why did you make this thread if your goal was to spread discord? You're part of the problem infecting gaming communities these days.

 

Actually my friend, you and the ones like you are the biggest problem in today's gaming industry. The thing is nowadays people can compare and choose MMO's based on their personal experience, if they do have any. If they don't or they are just fan-boys of the media content (in this case), they would take any release and call it golden (with no questions asked! (Your case I presume)). Constructive critics from players helps to develop game industry as a whole. Development of some products is aiming for innovation and game experience and some other are made just to fill in the gap between 2 different color Darth Vader *****s. In today's world when plyers can choose from so many high quality games high, standards of new releases becomes a MUST (especially with enormous 200mil. budget and that many promises before the launch).

Constant denials by Bioware of issues addressed by concerned players does not help at all....

[Skidrowbro]

SWToR is doing fine. Let the naysayers have they say. Bioware is probably laughing their asses off at them anyway just like the people who are enjoying the game are laughing. Threads like this and every other doomsayer thread happens in every new MMO, Rift, Aion, Failhammer(well that one did fail), Terra, GW2. Lol these guys probably do the same thing on the f2p games as well

[thominoh]

No it can't.. Bioware made the mistake of designing their game after everyone else.. Single player co-op with end game gear grind.. Too many games, not enough market, and little different between any of them.. Mechanics are virtually the same, only the cosmetics have changed..

 

On to the next game that MIGHT actually think outside the box and gives us something new and original..

[Frostvein]

SWToR is doing fine. Let the naysayers have they say. Bioware is probably laughing their asses off at them anyway just like the people who are enjoying the game are laughing. Threads like this and every other doomsayer thread happens in every new MMO, Rift, Aion, Failhammer(well that one did fail), Terra, GW2. Lol these guys probably do the same thing on the f2p games as well

 

Yes, 90+ percent of the servers being light during primetime, 400K loss of subs, 1.1 million out of a reported 2.4 million quit.

 

Games fine bros.

[Rhysling]

SWToR is doing fine. Let the naysayers have they say. Bioware is probably laughing their asses off at them anyway just like the people who are enjoying the game are laughing. Threads like this and every other doomsayer thread happens in every new MMO, Rift, Aion, Failhammer(well that one did fail), Terra, GW2. Lol these guys probably do the same thing on the f2p games as well

 

All the games you mentioned don't have anyone playing them....

[Raithax]

SWToR is doing fine. Let the naysayers have they say. Bioware is probably laughing their asses off at them anyway just like the people who are enjoying the game are laughing. Threads like this and every other doomsayer thread happens in every new MMO, Rift, Aion, Failhammer(well that one did fail), Terra, GW2. Lol these guys probably do the same thing on the f2p games as well

 

Sincerely hope this is a troll/joke because by all definitions the game is not doing fine. If you are playing it as KotOR fine, you are perhaps enjoying it as such, other than that the lack of any valid communication, servers nearly devoid of life, and nothing on the horizon but promises does not bode well for any of you "enjoying" this game that you think is "doing fine".

 

All the games you mentioned don't have anyone playing them....

 

Rift has a healthy population (less servers, more players per server). Aion has a larger subscriber base worldwide than SWTOR with less servers, I could be wrong but hardly a game no one is playing. Tera has a healthy player population (again less servers), and GW2 isn't even out. Just *** are you talkin about?

 

Problem with this game, no one gives a crap about the game's subscriber numbers if you spread those subscribers too thin.

[thominoh]

Sincerely hope this is a troll/joke because by all definitions the game is not doing fine. If you are playing it as KotOR fine, you are perhaps enjoying it as such, other than that the lack of any valid communication, servers nearly devoid of life, and nothing on the horizon but promises does not bode well for any of you "enjoying" this game that you think is "doing fine".

 

 

 

Rift has a healthy population (less servers, more players per server). Aion has a larger subscriber base worldwide than SWTOR with less servers, I could be wrong but hardly a game no one is playing. Tera has a healthy player population (again less servers), and GW2 isn't even out. Just *** are you talkin about?

 

Problem with this game, no one gives a crap about the game's subscriber numbers if you spread those subscribers too thin.

 

I agree. right up to the point of the Rift stuff.. Rift's population is still taking hits month to month.. even after they had multiple transfers and server shut down.. Their numbers are still dropping.. Estimate about 100,000 subs total over 32 worldwide servers.. One or two more decent size games like ArchAge or GW2 go live, I suspect that Rift will go F2P within 6 months..

 

But yeah.. SWTOR has lost many subs, and who knows how many more AFTER all the free months are over.. I wouldn't be surprised if they lose another 100k or 200k within the next 45 days.. or sooner.. I know I won't be here cause I already cancelled but the extra month of time is allowing me to keep an eye on things..

[VegaPhone]

Server transfers/mergers.

 

Its that simple to improve what they already have. Some server populations are too low in hoping that new free trials will re-populate them since the free trial players will just roll into higher populated servers most likely.

 

So that's the first mistake.

 

The other mistake is how they developed the game to focus on a single player quality of the game too much, without investing enough into the MMO aspect. That hurts the retention of the game, since playing alts can be fun, but its in a static 'MMO' that barely plays like an MMO with a $15 monthly sub is not a high quality product to justify that from comparing it to the market - it just feels like its more for business than for the benefit of playing in an MMO.

 

Thats a major drawback as well to play alts since normally the people who play alts in single player games do it in the setting of not being in an MMO and therefore have better single player features but also dont have to pay 15$ per month.

 

So BW has to make up for lost time from the few years (5-6 years development) that were misspent not making this into a better MMO, and have to make more MMO features while people are leaving, and new MMOs are being released.

 

Thats terrible planning by BW, especially considering the amount of time it takes to develop content, and the dev team needed to pay them to make said content also needs high subscriptions to pay them. So all the extra VO, the long stories (heroic/FP, 100's of hours of side quests, and some story), in -game cinematics (nice), the too many gaming conventions, trailers, and VO in other languages were too much of a cost to the devs and their management of their time with 200 million dollars.

 

Can they make content fast enough? That is the real question. The answer is usually no for every game, and that is why in the years of development they should have focused more on developing the game instead of advertising with extra trailers, VO in other languages, and too many conventions.

 

The things this game needs are:

 

Mini games that are multiplayer - pazaak, swoop racing and other options like SW chess

Swimming and swimming/underworld content

3D space

Player housing

Open world pvp

End game that requires to move out of the fleet (major redesign)

optimized engine

NPC movement

Dynamic quests triggered by or continuous and requires participation in the area (public quests but more dynamic)

more warzones

more ops

warzones that emulate sieging and have an effect in the world and feel immersive to participate in

day/night cycles

Character customization more complex

Weird looking aliens

 

That should have all been in the game at release. Also the design should have been to make swtor more of a hybrid of sand box and themepark and to have player housing that fit with open world, and with open world pvp.

 

Now the other problem with swtor is not knowing what the actual goal and vision of the devs are for the future. Are they going to put player housing that involves pvp, and crafting as well? What about other important features? We know that 3d space is being worked on, and they like mini games... but when is this going to happen? And after some of these aspects are introduced, we do not know the future of other needed aspects in the game. Also during the release of this content the devs could not be developing important content that already exists such as always producing more story, ops, and warzones.

 

So thats a lot of catching up to do. And its a lot of what if's when those patches come as well.

 

And lucky for them, GW2 is not that great when it comes to how they developed their game as well, but it looks like they have enough content to be competition to swtor thats for sure. However, I am not ready to jump ship to GW2 since swtor can easily have what GW2 offers but with story that actually means something to me. I have no care for GW2 lore.

Edited May 18, 2012 by VegaPhone

[DarthTHC]

You started with a nice theory then you broke it with the specifics you asked for. If we want is game to feel like an MMO, here's how your list affects that...

 

Mini games that are multiplayer - pazaak, swoop racing and other options like SW chess Multiplayer

Swimming and swimming/underworld content Not At All Multiplayer

3D space Not At All Multiplayer

Player housing Not At All Multiplayer

Open world pvp Multiplayer

End game that requires to move out of the fleet (major redesign) Not At All Multiplayer

optimized engine Sorta Multiplayer

NPC movement Not At All Multiplayer

Dynamic quests triggered by or continuous and requires participation in the area (public quests but more dynamic) Not At All Multiplayer

more warzones Multiplayer

more ops Multiplayer

warzones that emulate sieging and have an effect in the world and feel immersive to participate in Multiplayer

day/night cycles Not At All Multiplayer

Character customization more complex Sorta Multiplayer

Weird looking aliens Sorta Multiplayer

[Drunkenpig]

Server transfers/mergers.

 

Its that simple to improve what they already have. Some server populations are too low in hoping that new free trials will re-populate them since the free trial players will just roll into higher populated servers most likely.

 

So that's the first mistake.

 

The other mistake is how they developed the game to focus on a single player quality of the game too much, without investing enough into the MMO aspect. That hurts the retention of the game, since playing alts can be fun, but its in a static 'MMO' that barely plays like an MMO with a $15 monthly sub is not a high quality product to justify that from comparing it to the market - it just feels like its more for business than for the benefit of playing in an MMO.

 

Thats a major drawback as well to play alts since normally the people who play alts in single player games do it in the setting of not being in an MMO and therefore have better single player features but also dont have to pay 15$ per month.

 

So BW has to make up for lost time from the few years (5-6 years development) that were misspent not making this into a better MMO, and have to make more MMO features while people are leaving, and new MMOs are being released.

 

Thats terrible planning by BW, especially considering the amount of time it takes to develop content, and the dev team needed to pay them to make said content also needs high subscriptions to pay them. So all the extra VO, the long stories (heroic/FP, 100's of hours of side quests, and some story), in -game cinematics (nice), the too many gaming conventions, trailers, and VO in other languages were too much of a cost to the devs and their management of their time with 200 million dollars.

 

Can they make content fast enough? That is the real question. The answer is usually no for every game, and that is why in the years of development they should have focused more on developing the game instead of advertising with extra trailers, VO in other languages, and too many conventions.

 

The things this game needs are:

 

Mini games that are multiplayer - pazaak, swoop racing and other options like SW chess

Swimming and swimming/underworld content

3D space

Player housing

Open world pvp

End game that requires to move out of the fleet (major redesign)

optimized engine

NPC movement

Dynamic quests triggered by or continuous and requires participation in the area (public quests but more dynamic)

more warzones

more ops

warzones that emulate sieging and have an effect in the world and feel immersive to participate in

day/night cycles

Character customization more complex

Weird looking aliens

 

That should have all been in the game at release. Also the design should have been to make swtor more of a hybrid of sand box and themepark and to have player housing that fit with open world, and with open world pvp.

 

Now the other problem with swtor is not knowing what the actual goal and vision of the devs are for the future. Are they going to put player housing that involves pvp, and crafting as well? What about other important features? We know that 3d space is being worked on, and they like mini games... but when is this going to happen? And after some of these aspects are introduced, we do not know the future of other needed aspects in the game. Also during the release of this content the devs could not be developing important content that already exists such as always producing more story, ops, and warzones.

 

So thats a lot of catching up to do. And its a lot of what if's when those patches come as well.

 

And lucky for them, GW2 is not that great when it comes to how they developed their game as well, but it looks like they have enough content to be competition to swtor thats for sure. However, I am not ready to jump ship to GW2 since swtor can easily have what GW2 offers but with story that actually means something to me. I have no care for GW2 lore.

I agree with all of the above. In addition they should introduce rare mob spawns with rare drops, and increase mats you can harvest (or decrease amounts you can send your alt to get) so as to increase the need or reasons for people to be in the open world. Right now, most open world areas are deserted. No one harvests anything. So one more reason for no owpvp.

[ZeketheReaper]

You started with a nice theory then you broke it with the specifics you asked for. If we want is game to feel like an MMO, here's how your list affects that...

 

All the stuff you added in to his post is ALL multiplayer content compatible.

[DarthTHC]

All the stuff you added in to his post is ALL multiplayer content compatible.

 

Well... everything is multiplayer compatible.

 

But how does day/night cycles make the game more multiplayer?

[Drunkenpig]

He said these are things the game needs. Not, "these things are needed from the aspect of a multiplayer environment".

And housing is more for multiplayer than for a single player RPG like SWTOR.

[gurugeorge]

SWToR is doing fine. Let the naysayers have they say. Bioware is probably laughing their asses off at them anyway just like the people who are enjoying the game are laughing. Threads like this and every other doomsayer thread happens in every new MMO, Rift, Aion, Failhammer(well that one did fail), Terra, GW2. Lol these guys probably do the same thing on the f2p games as well

 

I don't think it's as simple as that. I doubt EA were particularly interested in a game with less than a million subs, and it looks like the game is heading that way. Now that's not an absolute disaster, and for those still subbed to the game who enjoy it (say it bottoms out at around 500,000) there will still be a lot of fun to be had for them, and no doubt the game can live for a while like that, making a profit.

 

The trouble is, I don't think that's going to be a good enough performance for EA and shareholders. Given the huge IP, they wanted a smash hit. It looked like the game was a smash hit from the numbers of people who bought it, but clearly, a large percentage of the people who bought it don't like it enough to keep subscribing.

 

What that means is that, while the game will continue, it will likely continue with a much smaller crew of developers. Which means that bugs will be fixed slower, content will be added slower, etc., etc.

 

That's the real tragedy really - and it's happened to many MMOs in the past that "had potential". That potential is only going to be fulfilled if people stick around long enough for it to look profitable enough for the money men to keep pumping money into it. Given the poor performance of the game relative to (what I think must have been) EA's expectations, that money's just not going to go into the game, it's never going to fulfil its potential.

 

And that would be a shame.

 

Now I think the game can be saved, because I think there's a lot of goodwill for the IP, and still some goodwill for BW, but they're going to have to do a CCP-style turnaround, admission of having gotten some things (of course not everything, but some things) wrong, and a dedication to the fans to improve the game by building on the decent CRPG storyline/quest based foundation they've got and making the rest of the game a better MMO.

 

But whether they have the balls to do that, I don't know.

[Frostvein]

The funniest thing about all this is that there isn't any reported new content till 1.4, which considering 1.3 doesn't even have an ETA the whole situation quickly becomes babytown frolics.

 

You might get Rated WZ's in that time span. Oh, and we're getting a single server LFG so that you and the other 20 people on your server can organize better.

 

June/July/August for maybe 1.3, server mergers and single server LFG. Woo freaking hoo.

 

Subs have been hemorrhaging for quite some time and its only going to get worse.

[Blistrich]

Simply put, if you think SWTOR is "doing fine", you're in denial.

 

It is effectively becoming one of the industry's most prolific embarrassments, and you don't have to look more than 5 feet to see it. It's all over these forums... it's all over the general MMO discussion forums... it's plastered across the countless pages of substandard reviews... in other words, the writing is on the wall.

 

If you choose not to look at it, that's your problem.

[Berazad]

Actually my friend, you and the ones like you are the biggest problem in today's gaming industry. The thing is nowadays people can compare and choose MMO's based on their personal experience, if they do have any. If they don't or they are just fan-boys of the media content (in this case), they would take any release and call it golden (with no questions asked! (Your case I presume)). Constructive critics from players helps to develop game industry as a whole. Development of some products is aiming for innovation and game experience and some other are made just to fill in the gap between 2 different color Darth Vader *****s. In today's world when plyers can choose from so many high quality games high, standards of new releases becomes a MUST (especially with enormous 200mil. budget and that many promises before the launch).

Constant denials by Bioware of issues addressed by concerned players does not help at all....

Coming from the guy calling this game " another failed attempt to compete with WoW " this is the biggest problem with people like you every MMO thats coming out is instantly branded a WoW killer and if it doesn't live up to that people like you hit the forums in force to complain. Game companies never come out and say " Yeah we'll kick WoW's *** they are a thing of the past. " and you know why? Because realistically they cannot compete against a game with so many subscribers it's people like you that put words into people's mouths in an attempt to justify silly arguments.

 

The sooner people like you admit the only thing that will kill WoW is WoW the better maybe then people can read the forums without seeing posts like yours the bioware social network forums got ruined by people like you, debate went out of the window and it became a mass haven for trolls.

 

Constructive criticism can be useful but it doesn't seem to apply in your case considering all you did was complain, I've seen some pretty constructive attempts to get across to bioware but not from you, And for the record i quit the game two and a half months back and i've recently returned, do you know what i did when i decided to quit?

 

I simply quit. I didn't take to the forums to muster attention and blow everything out of proportion nor say such childish dribble as " GW2 BEST GAME EVER SWTOR DIE LOL " like some posters here seem to be doing and that there is the childish cycle that will never end i've seen it repeating for years and people like you simply fan the flames, i'll probably find half you people over at the GW2 forums whining about everything just as you are doing here.

[KendrickX]

Coming from the guy calling this game " another failed attempt to compete with WoW " this is the biggest problem with people like you every MMO thats coming out is instantly branded a WoW killer and if it doesn't live up to that people like you hit the forums in force to complain. Game companies never come out and say " Yeah we'll kick WoW's *** they are a thing of the past. " and you know why? Because realistically they cannot compete against a game with so many subscribers it's people like you that put words into people's mouths in an attempt to justify silly arguments.

 

The sooner people like you admit the only thing that will kill WoW is WoW the better maybe then people can read the forums without seeing posts like yours the bioware social network forums got ruined by people like you, debate went out of the window and it became a mass haven for trolls.

 

SWTOR was obviously made as a WOW killer/clone. Of course, this is also the reason for its failure.

[Berazad]

SWTOR was obviously made as a WOW killer/clone. Of course, this is also the reason for its failure.

There people go again branding it a WoW killer/Clone last i checked EA wern't the company using the slogan " Your not in azeroth anymore " and mocking blizzard when they lost their first batch of subscribers last year.

[Frostvein]

There people go again branding it a WoW killer/Clone last i checked EA wern't the company using the slogan " Your not in azeroth anymore " and mocking blizzard when they lost their first batch of subscribers last year.

 

If you look around there was a quote from one of the heads of development at Bioware or ea who actually specifically said that yes, they were aiming to be bigger then WoW.

[KendrickX]

There people go again branding it a WoW killer/Clone last i checked EA wern't the company using the slogan " Your not in azeroth anymore " and mocking blizzard when they lost their first batch of subscribers last year.

 

Well, World of Tanks used something like "Those are not orcs, those are TANKS!" in an early trailer. But it's not about the branding or slogans. It's all about the concept. And conceptually SWTOR is "WOW in space". It was made to capture both SW fans (lightsabers!) and WOW fans (everything is the same, but voiced! Also, Vette!).