svartalfimposter Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 We all know the Sentinel/Marauder are massively overpowered, but the problem could easily be fixed by reducing their defence/armour/HPs (I don't know what it is, but they don't die quickly enough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
criminalheretic Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 We all know the Sentinel/Marauder are massively overpowered, but the problem could easily be fixed by reducing their defence/armour/HPs (I don't know what it is, but they don't die quickly enough). Actually people are starting to realize that PT are OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidopro Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Actually people are starting to realize that PT are OP. PT is not OP. it can dish out a crap ton of damage, but as soon as more than 1 person starts attacking them they die very, very, very fast. PT has mediocre defensive cooldowns at best, and none of those cooldowns will help when youre focus-fired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
criminalheretic Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) PT is not OP. it can dish out a crap ton of damage, but as soon as more than 1 person starts attacking them they die very, very, very fast. PT has mediocre defensive cooldowns at best, and none of those cooldowns will help when youre focus-fired Everybody dies when they are focus fired. Even Marauders. They have 1 ability that delays that for 5 seconds (or the escape/Force Camo but Marauders are not the only one with an escape), that they can pop about 5-10 times a WZ total. That buys them an extra 25-50 seconds of WZ life, total. It's hard to quantify, but I am guessing the extra 10% damage reduction people get from heavy armor buys them just as much time, if not more. And I KNOW healing buys people much more than that. Marauders don't get heavy armor or healing, instead they get defensive CDs. The problem is that people like to pretend Marauders are killing 74 people and racking up an extra 200k damage in that 25-50 seconds. They aren't. People are so desperate to make that ability sound worse than it is, that they even attribute any heals the Marauder receives to that ability. Like UR/GBF automatically directs all heals in the WZ to the Marauder... Edited May 10, 2012 by criminalheretic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Everybody dies when they are focus fired. Even Marauders. They have 1 ability that delays that for 5 seconds (or the escape/Force Camo but Marauders are not the only one with an escape), that they can pop about 5-10 times a WZ total. That buys them an extra 25-50 seconds of WZ life, total. The problem is that people like to pretend Marauders are killing 74 people and racking up an extra 200k damage in that 25-50 seconds. They aren't. People are so desperate to make that ability sound worse than it is, that they even attribute any heals the Marauder receives to that ability. Like UR/GBF automatically directs all heals in the WZ to the Marauder... marauders have 3 defensive cooldowns. those 3 abilities are probably in the top 5 for best defensive cooldowns in the game, and theyre given to an all out dps class. 5 seconds in pvp can make a world of difference, which is why undying rage/guarded with the force is such a hot topic. the other defensive cooldowns marauders have are no slouches either, giving very good defense against all forms of damage. you cannot give the class with the largest offensive potential the best defensive abilities. look at every other DPS spec in the game. they all have 1, maybe 2 defensive cooldowns; marauders have 3. this isnt rocket science folks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem This right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem I'd still argue Force Shroud is greater than Undying Rage any day of the week. Although their other cooldowns trump what Sins have as a whole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) Mara/Sents die compartively like everyone else, people assume they die less just because of UR/GBTF Mara/Sents have ZERO push,pull abilties, they have ZERO CC, and they are Medium armor... So you want to nerf their defenses and basically gut the class... Take a look at the class base of Barbarian and you get the Mara/Sent's Thats it... FYI, not every single Mara/Sent out there is Anhilation/Watchman specced... You dont care?? The changes you are suggesting would nerf the other two trees available to the class in the ground. Edited May 10, 2012 by Blloodbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Too bad Mara's dont have either the best damage or the best cds. Undying Rage is one of the best CDs in the game (along with Resilience) , but Any jugg has a much better saber ward than a mara, plus they also can spec in either Immortal or Vengeance to have other, better cds ( Immortality, focused defense with +20% mitigation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavroz Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) marauders have 3 defensive cooldowns. those 3 abilities are probably in the top 5 for best defensive cooldowns in the game, and theyre given to an all out dps class. 5 seconds in pvp can make a world of difference, which is why undying rage/guarded with the force is such a hot topic. the other defensive cooldowns marauders have are no slouches either, giving very good defense against all forms of damage. you cannot give the class with the largest offensive potential the best defensive abilities. look at every other DPS spec in the game. they all have 1, maybe 2 defensive cooldowns; marauders have 3. this isnt rocket science folks..... this ^^ You can't have a class that can put out amazing amounts of DPS then give them amazing defensive cooldowns. Something has to give. Not saying they have to be glass cannons but jesus medium armour + Gaurded by the force + comabt vanish + Saber ward is just ridiculous and as you just pointed out 5 seconds is a long time in PvP. In 5 seconds a healer could heal a Mara/sent almost to full life. Edited May 10, 2012 by Stavroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffdudeJL Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 How are people more upset over Sentinels/Marauders than Shadows/Assassins. Shadows/Assassins have infinitely more utility than Sentinels/Marauders in every single PvP game mode. While having effectively the same, if not more, survivability through armor, similar defensive cooldowns, and stealth AND they still do similar, sometimes, BETTER DPS. I have no idea why anyone thinks they will be favored in Rateds. Once their defensive cooldowns are gone, they are the easiest class to kill and you don't even have to worry about being kited. Sorcerers/Consulars probably have better "general" survivability than Sentinel/Marauders as a 10% vs 5% defensive chance is far better than having 25% vs 20% armor damage reduction. Rated Objective based Warzones will be about sustained survivability vs burst survivability. Personally, I would never take a Sentinel/Marauder over a Shadow/Assassin. Sentinels/Marauders are just too much of a One-Trick-Pony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
criminalheretic Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 marauders have 3 defensive cooldowns. those 3 abilities are probably in the top 5 for best defensive cooldowns in the game, and theyre given to an all out dps class. 5 seconds in pvp can make a world of difference, which is why undying rage/guarded with the force is such a hot topic. the other defensive cooldowns marauders have are no slouches either, giving very good defense against all forms of damage. you cannot give the class with the largest offensive potential the best defensive abilities. look at every other DPS spec in the game. they all have 1, maybe 2 defensive cooldowns; marauders have 3. this isnt rocket science folks..... That's my point though, while they may not be cooldowns, Heavy armor is a defensive ability, Healing is a defensive ability, the ability to attack from range is a defensive ability. Not directly of course, but they are all things that allow a player to survive longer, that a Melee DPS doesn't have. People like to run down skill trees and count defensive CDs, but they dont take into account class abilities that AREN'T defensive CDs, but still aid in the ability of a class to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightycount Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 We all know the Sentinel/Marauder are massively overpowered, but the problem could easily be fixed by reducing their defence/armour/HPs (I don't know what it is, but they don't die quickly enough). Not all, just the 95% of people who don't understand how Sentinels and Marauders work. The 5% who do understand can deal with them pretty easily. Which, as you correctly pointed out, does not include you at this point in time. They're just annoying and require a bit more attention than most other classes, that's all. Here's a tip for you: if you see half of their health disappear from your mediocre attack, don't get excited and blow your best attack right after that, mezz them for 5 sec instead. This simple trick will negate 90% of sent/maras out there. And here's another tip for you: most of the MMOs die because of catering to nerf whiners too much. Be careful what you wish for. Peace..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) How are people more upset over Sentinels/Marauders than Shadows/Assassins. Shadows/Assassins have infinitely more utility than Sentinels/Marauders in every single PvP game mode. While having effectively the same, if not more, survivability through armor, similar defensive cooldowns, and stealth AND they still do similar, sometimes, BETTER DPS. I have no idea why anyone thinks they will be favored in Rateds. Once their defensive cooldowns are gone, they are the easiest class to kill and you don't even have to worry about being kited. Sorcerers/Consulars probably have better "general" survivability than Sentinel/Marauders as a 10% vs 5% defensive chance is far better than having 25% vs 20% armor damage reduction. Rated Objective based Warzones will be about sustained survivability vs burst survivability. Personally, I would never take a Sentinel/Marauder over a Shadow/Assassin. Sentinels/Marauders are just too much of a One-Trick-Pony. In rated, deadly saber for heal debuff. A concealment operative is more of a one trick pony than marauder is, marauder has predation, bloodthirst, berserk that can heal teammates while in juyo stance, burn down healers while popping cloak of pain+undying rage+saber ward+defense relic and force camo through snipers in cover and tracer spamming mercs. Edited May 10, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 marauders have 3 defensive cooldowns. those 3 abilities are probably in the top 5 for best defensive cooldowns in the game, and theyre given to an all out dps class. 5 seconds in pvp can make a world of difference, which is why undying rage/guarded with the force is such a hot topic. the other defensive cooldowns marauders have are no slouches either, giving very good defense against all forms of damage. you cannot give the class with the largest offensive potential the best defensive abilities. look at every other DPS spec in the game. they all have 1, maybe 2 defensive cooldowns; marauders have 3. this isnt rocket science folks..... Proof that we have the largest offensive potential please... Oh wait there is none. Pretty sure Assassins have 3 defensive cool downs also, that's all specs btw. 4 if full tank. So lookes like i proved you wrong there. Who has 1 anyways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTray Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I'd still argue Force Shroud is greater than Undying Rage any day of the week. Although their other cooldowns trump what Sins have as a whole And youd be wrong, every day of the week. Force shroud = use white damage. So easy only noobs fail at it. Undying rage = run away or cc fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 And youd be wrong, every day of the week. Force shroud = use white damage. So easy only noobs fail at it. Undying rage = run away or cc fast That's your opinion. My opinion is that, in hutball, which is probably the most common warzone, force shroud is far and away the best cooldown. In the other wzs undying rage probably edges out shroud, but not by much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 And youd be wrong, every day of the week. Force shroud = use white damage. So easy only noobs fail at it. Undying rage = run away or cc fast Too bad like 90% of the hardest hitting abilities in the game are force or tech damage... what is a sorc supposed to do, and either way force shroud is slowing someone down and it's all an assassin needs to come out on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi_don Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem thiiiiiis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laforet Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) marauders are a clear case of excess of cooldowns. while i agree with you guys that maras are squishy when damaged/focused, my counter argument is that its very hard to focus/damage a GOOD MARAUDER. im talking about good players here. the random forum poster can argue that they kill a marauder, and the random forum poster can also say that hes a mara and he gets killed by class X or Y. as an assault trooper ive killed my share of marauders, but its still the second most frustrating class to play against (number one is stealth op but not because they are imba, its the class design, they are supposed to jump you from stealth thats the way their class works) when i fight a GOOD mara i can still win, but its always struggle and if i commit a single mistake im done. on the contrary, a marauder can commit more than one mistake and still kill me. i will tell you how frustating it is. i will use sentinel terms, translate the mirros please: - i open on him and start pumping, he activates rebuke and puts me in a lose-lose situation. either i hit him, take damage myself and prolong the shield or i just stop hitting him and i lose time on target. i cant cc him, because if i cc him now i will lose the fight, see bellow. - after that i try to kite him. kiting a GOOD marauder is not as easy as it seems. good watchman marauder have slow on burn, spammable slow, close quarters (he can charge you from less than 10m, this is INFURIATING) and speed boost via transcendence. BAD maras will tell you that they never use transcende to speed boost because of zen but thats how BAD people think. GOOD maras will use speed boost to get to you then valorous call then zen, gg. they also can awe you stay on top for at least one more bit. and every bit counts against a class that puts the kind of damage they do. at this time he will also force choke me from afar, while force choke does not do good damage it will give him rage and it will diminish my time on target (im choking) and it will buy him time to put his charge out of cooldown. its generally a good idea to trinket force choke, but it will buy him time either way. - if i use neural surge to try to gain kiting distance i lose the fight, because then they will jump, charge lock then ravage. of course i wont eat a full ravage, but i will one hit of it and the 1st hit is enough to turn the tables on a fight. so i am obliged to use neural surge when hes ravaing, no choice. same with cryo greande, see bellow. - if i manage to kite him (its damn hard, most of the time u die in the process due to his anti kitting skills and dotting) he will use blade ward, which reduces damage taken and raises deflection, i cant really counter this. this will buy him time to charge again and kill me. - also good maras will PACIFY me when i pop combat focus, making me less likely to hit him with HiB crit. - if i finally can wear him down to the point that i got the upper hand in the fight, the mother****er can dissapear in thin air. while hes ghosting, he has speed buff and damage reduction, neat huh. GOOD MARAS will dissapear once you get the upper hand. BAD MARAS will say force camo cant really turn the tables in a fight. it can. i have to guess when hes using it to pre stealth scan. if i dont stealth scan in the right moment he will move away and camo. so yeah i must have guess the exact moment hes going to do it and even if i do this i didnt have won yet. - last part, when i got the kill he will pop invincible and then i stun him with cryo grande and he dies a horrible death and goes to the bioware haven of marauders. if i have used cryo grenade earlier in the fight (kiting part) he kills me now. its 100% possible to kill maras, but i have to make a perfect fight. zero mistakes, i have to guess when hes going to use skills. i dont need to say this is very difficult. while the mara just needs to pop cooldown after cooldown, commit some mistakes and he will still have a chance to win in the end. thats not balanced, they have too much tools to control and unsettle their opponents. of course it boils down to the player but its out of line. ps: my post is about watchmans, which is the most common spec on my server. focus and combat specs are easy to kill since they dont have dot, cant charge you from less than 10m and etc. Edited May 10, 2012 by Laforet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightycount Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 thiiiiiis I feel like starting a "Nerf Assassin" thread. Too bad I'm not used to stooping so low Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I feel like starting a "Nerf Assassin" thread. Too bad I'm not used to stooping so low Yeah anyone who mains an assassin and is crying about Mara's should realize that if one class gets nerfed so will the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSair Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 One DPS class cannot have the best single target damage, best on-demand survive-ability and best self healing. Oh and don't forget a stealth, AoE mezz, Interrupt, healing debuff and two very powerful group buffs in Inspiration and Transcendence. Watchman was OP before 1.2, it only took the expertise changes and one buff to Master Strike to make it more apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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