Why can't we spend our own points

[Styxx]

And if there's no downside to min-maxing like that, then there's basically no choice anyway. You just min-max. It's not like ignoring Cunning will make my character act stupider or be unable to use certain technologies, nor will ignoring Strength limit how large my backpack can be. And for just stacking Aim vs. Endurance... I don't think it's worth it, considering how stat-heavy gear is. But if you disagree, fair enough.

 

It is not that I agree or disagree, but math says this: for a base of 1700 endu and 2000 aim, you could ideally move 1000 endu to aim, having a net gain of 30% from stat points alone. That 30% gain WILL impact all your stats.

 

Gear stacks on top of the direct 30% gain from primary stat

 

The only downside to this "glass cannon" is HP... a big disadvantage, but it has great potential of 1-2 shotting everything on the grid. I`d take my chances

[Amby]

You bought that WoW dev BS apparently.

 

Devs are quick to blame players for exploiting weaknesses in the systems that they design their games around. In reality it is either weak and/or lazy design that leads to a system being capable of being abused. Rather then develop the systems to be robust and interactive, they are quarantined and and players lack that additional investment into their character. As a result a large majority of players have no idea how their stats contribute to their characters success in a particular encounter.

 

This is one of the reasons that you see so many bad players out there, everything is simply provided to them and they think that is the way it is supposed to be. They put no effort into making their character anything more than what is given to them and they really don't understand how their class works, much less classes they might be competing against. Next thing you know you have a forum full of whining players, complaining about things that they don't even understand.

 

Well, at the end of the day, developers want their game to be accessible. Any game that has a high entry requirement(in time commitment, research, skill, or what have you) will not attract players. The vast majority of players are not hardcore. Most players might log in for a few hours every night, or play on the weekend, or PVP on their lunch break, or whatever. They will not research online for optimal builds. They just wanna have fun playing the game. It's the developer's objective to make it so they can do that.

 

And yes, I agree with Ghostcrawler. His blog posts make a lot of sense.

[SWImara]

MMOs did away with this idea years ago (unfortunately IMO) I'm honestly surprised when I even see it in a single player game these days. Theoretically it's to stop people from gimping themselves, I'm sure it was a balance issue too. "Talents" are about as customizable as I expect these days.

[ManiacalShen]

It is not that I agree or disagree, but math says this: for a base of 1700 endu and 2000 aim, you could ideally move 1000 endu to aim, having a net gain of 30% from stat points alone. That 30% gain WILL impact all your stats.

 

Gear stacks on top of the direct 30% gain from primary stat

 

The only downside to this "glass cannon" is HP... a big disadvantage, but it has great potential of 1-2 shotting everything on the grid. I`d take my chances

 

Hehe, that would be fun, and it wouldn't feel much different than now in PVP. XD

[kitsinni]

It is not that I agree or disagree, but math says this: for a base of 1700 endu and 2000 aim, you could ideally move 1000 endu to aim, having a net gain of 30% from stat points alone. That 30% gain WILL impact all your stats.

 

Gear stacks on top of the direct 30% gain from primary stat

 

The only downside to this "glass cannon" is HP... a big disadvantage, but it has great potential of 1-2 shotting everything on the grid. I`d take my chances

 

The thing you are not seeing is that if they let you move your stats around like that then all armor would be static to make up for it. You wouldn't have things like orange armor where you can move your stats around how you like them. Basically being able to customize the stats on your armor is the tradeoff for not putting skill points where you want them. Instead of moving your 1000 end to aim you just mod your armor for more aim than end. If you were going to move the 100 end to aim and then customize your armor it would just get to impossible to balance.

[spoonguy]

The thing you are not seeing is that if they let you move your stats around like that then all armor would be static to make up for it. You wouldn't have things like orange armor where you can move your stats around how you like them. Basically being able to customize the stats on your armor is the tradeoff for not putting skill points where you want them. Instead of moving your 1000 end to aim you just mod your armor for more aim than end. If you were going to move the 100 end to aim and then customize your armor it would just get to impossible to balance.

 

This is sort of what I'm trying to get at ... its the result that matters ... what are you trying to achieve through changing the stats ... if its to min max the hell out of your char then Bioware will have to balance for this and you'll likely be back where you started...

[Styxx]

Game is balanced around a specific number for a level. Stats and gear wise.

 

They won`t turn around and say "only the smart ones will go forward", while idiots would just hit their collective heads against the invisible wall... again... and again... and again.

 

It surely would be crazy fun to have 5000 HP and 50k crits from your 3000+ main stat and itemized gear... but then imagine the crying and moaning...

 

It`s a smart idea... but it`s too "hardcore". Sadly.

 

I will quote what I`ve said previously in this thread.

 

The game is not balanced around that system and, as fun as it might be, it will never be in this game, for the above reasons. It was a conscious decision made in its infancy and the whole combat system is based on this. And they`ll never change it.

 

We were just debating what the simplest solution would bring: "unlock skill points and add sliders" under the current system.

[Matte_Black]

When you level, and the game just decides "You're getting 2 points in strength, 5 points in endurance, etc..." Why? Why can't we just spend the points the way we want? So what if I want to be a Sorc with a buttload of strength or a BH with tons of force power. Those who did it wrong would be punished by their own lack of success, and those who did it well would be rewarded for their prowess.

 

Basically, it's bad for game balance.

 

People with unintended builds would end up being out of game balance and greater customization makes for more unforseen combinations. Some would be good and cause people with conventional builds to whine and some would be bad and complain that they are behind the curve.

 

To some extent, a disparity between abilities is bad for games. While players may want an edge individually, it's not generally good for the game as a whole. That's not to say that some variance doesn't make the game more interesting tactically but, they prefer to alot what edges are to be had through level and gear progression as a reward for proper participation in the game.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Matte_Black

[spellegren]

It is not that I agree or disagree, but math says this: for a base of 1700 endu and 2000 aim, you could ideally move 1000 endu to aim, having a net gain of 30% from stat points alone. That 30% gain WILL impact all your stats.

 

This is impossible, the only stat points that you would be able to distribute would be base, not stats from gear.

 

A starting Bounty Hunter has 54 Aim and 48 Endurance, without gear or buffs.

 

A level 50 Bounty Hunter has 250 Aim and 225 Endurance, without gear, buffs or talents.

 

A gain of 196 Aim and 173 Endurance over 50 levels.

 

So you would be able to sacrifice 1730 HP for 173 Aim (which would increase with buffs/talents) or 196 Aim for 1960 extra HP - on the min/max ends.

Edited May 10, 2012 by spellegren

[Malastare]

No, but you can sacrifice half your endu and stack it on top of your aim, on your BH. Which will raise your stats quite nicely.

 

Also, you could, ideally, get EVERY other non endu+aim skill to 0 and dump into one or the other.

 

...and this right here is why we can't do it.

 

The game is already too easy to min-max, and the ability to do stuff like this would actually make it even harder to balance for both min-maxers and people who actualy want to play in a somewhat realistic manner. As pointed out by others, if you can stat dump like that without any noticeable detriment, then we've got yet another mechanic that increases the ability gap between normal players who think they're playing an RPG and obsessives wanting to brag about how great they are at applied math.

 

Overall, it does nothing to make the game more fun, and it applies more pressure on normal players to join the min-max crowd or die.

[Synzer]

It is not that I agree or disagree, but math says this: for a base of 1700 endu and 2000 aim, you could ideally move 1000 endu to aim, having a net gain of 30% from stat points alone. That 30% gain WILL impact all your stats.

 

Gear stacks on top of the direct 30% gain from primary stat

 

The only downside to this "glass cannon" is HP... a big disadvantage, but it has great potential of 1-2 shotting everything on the grid. I`d take my chances

 

While it may be fun to experiment on that, I'm sure this game doesn't need another reason for people to be OP. Sure your hp could be pretty low, but when the game becomes a game of making sure you don't get hit even once or twice, then there is a problem. Sure you can stack endurance but then what? You're just sitting there with a lot of HP and no attack power. You could probably kill the glass cannons because their health is so low, but I personally wouldn't find that enjoyable.

 

The game is not completely balanced by any means, but I should be able to play my class based on the play style and not based on how I distribute my stat points. I understand that system may be "hardcore" or how people used to do it. But it is not needing in some games and not needing to have customization over your character. Is changing the way you put in stat points really going to make it better? I would feel more control over my character with different skill and talent point options, how my gear looks, and play style. Not whether or not I decide to stack a certain stat.

[Styxx]

This is impossible, the only stat points that you would be able to distribute would be base, not stats from gear.

 

A starting Bounty Hunter has 54 Aim and 48 Endurance, without gear or buffs.

 

A level 50 Bounty Hunter has 250 Aim and 225 Endurance, without gear, buffs or talents.

 

A gain of 196 Aim and 173 Endurance over 50 levels.

 

So you would be able to sacrifice 1730 HP for 173 Aim (which would increase with buffs/talents) or 196 Aim for 1960 extra HP - on the min/max ends.

 

a geared BH has 1700 endu and 2000 aim, as a result of 2 factors: gear and modifiers from aim and endurance.

 

The end result is the same: if I lose 33% on endu and add it to aim, I would have the same end result: 850 endu and 3000 aim, because the modifier is linear (or you get a fixed per point add).

 

You are just skinning the cat in a different way. Because you are not fighting naked.

 

But to put it in your terms: 250 aim and 225 endurance equals roughly 2000 aim and 1800 endu for a decently geared BH. Since we have a fixed ratio at which we gain points, it is linear as well - 350 aim and 113 endurance would be 3000 aim and 900 endu .. with all the pros and cons.

[DarthSublimitas]

@OP I understand that maybe you wanted to have the same kind of rubric as with the KOTOR series where you actually gave yourself the points. But you have to remember in today's gaming age, most players are 1) casual; 2) have no clue about rpg's; 3) have no clue; 4) all 3 combined.

 

With this being said, gaming companies have to either 1) dumb things down so even a brick can understand; 2) do the work for you; 3) hold your hand because most ppl couldn't tell you the difference between a NPC from a RNG.

 

So that is why Blizz completely destroyed the talent trees and now you pick one "spell" per 15 levels. BW takes the same stance here. It is the belief that most ppl won't realize that a sorc doesn't need str but rather wis. This was taken from the KOTOR games where there was int and wis.

 

But it is what it is. I'm not sure if there are any online games today that allow you to customize your points like in offline single player games. If there are, I'd be interested in knowing.

[Synzer]

I think the main reason things aren't like in single player games is one thing. What you do in a single player game doesn't effect anyone but yourself. That doesn't really give you much more customization anyway and would only make it even more hell to balance.

[Wolfeisberg]

Man this is just starting to get to confusing for me. Every thread you see a combo of it is too much like WoW, no it just copied WoW exactly, no it sucks becuase they didn't do this the way WoW did, no this is an exact copy of WoW, I'm mad about LFG tool because it isn't cross-server like WoW, the only reason I'm staying is because they didn't screw up the LFG tool like WoW did and make it cross-server, no this is an exact WoW clone, I'm going back to WoW because of this feature and that feature, no this is a copy of WoW ... it is just tiring.

 

People here are worse than politicians!

 

Let me put is simple for you. They copied WoW almost to the T, but left out some very significant quality of Life stuff

[Ujest]

A lot of games let you do that and it works out just fine for me. Why not?

 

Name them; name those games that let you assign your point in the free form manner you want.

[AdamLKvist]

Because these companies will homogenize and simplify the genre until there are no choices left to make for your character, only the illusion of choice will be present as you are guided safely from one area of play to the next. Most MMOs have removed stat point distribution, now Blizz is starting to either simplify (WoW) or completely do away with (D3) talent trees. Expect the mindless MMO companies to follow suit.

 

It's the path that these games are taking in the name of accessibility and ease of use that is utterly destroying the genre. They'll call it "broadening the audience" or something equally idiotic and all it does is hurt the game. Sure they bring in extra initial revenue from these players on release, but ultimately the MMORPG genre is not for them and they end up leaving rather quickly (see 400k subs lost in the first quarter - almost as bad as WAR).

 

In response to the mass exodus the company makes poor decisions that not only do nothing to retain the non-MMO crowd, they drive away the core MMO audience as well (see most of 1.2). Population decline snowballs out of control, the community at large declares the game "dead" and the inexorable march toward another F2P failure continues.

 

These companies need to remember their core audience if they want to create a lasting legacy product. Unfortunately the current atmosphere in the industry is more about the bottom line then it is the gameplay experience. They already covered their development costs and turned a decent profit on initial box sales, any continued revenue is just icing in EAs eyes.

 

EDIT: And for the old argument of "they want to make sure that people don't end up gimping themselves" - decisions are supposed to have consequences, especially in games! If they were that worried about it they could have a "Spend My Stat Point For Me" option to enable - or make stat respecs available.

 

Getting the player more involved and interested in their character and the mechanics of the stats and talents is desired MMO player behavior!

 

Because it deserves to be reposted.

[Calsetes]

Name them; name those games that let you assign your point in the free form manner you want.

 

Korean grinders. I can name a TON of them - all MMOs, all RPGs, but also all Korean and other Asian grinders.

[AdamLKvist]

Name them; name those games that let you assign your point in the free form manner you want.

 

MMORPG is adding a layer to RPG Hack & Slash games. While it may not be common practise in MMOs at this point (because of WoW's simplification to broaden their customer base) it definitely was before.

 

I'll actually top your question off with something so undeniably ironic you'll have to chew on it for a while - you should look up Neverwinter Nights! (Its created by Bioware FYI). While Neverwinter Nights had no supported multiplayer aspect people were free to create worlds/mods/PvP arenas with the included "Toolset" (Pretty much the tool that Bioware used to create said game). Would you like to know what this meant? No? I'll tell you anyway. You see, people were playing Neverwinter Nights online for a very long time. The game itself operated on D&D ruleset (apologiez don't know which "version") and as such there was plenty of knowledge to read up on. Such as maximising abilities, what particular skills, itemisation and general usage of abilities; Yes there were several ways unlike the moderm MMO where you get a spec and you're told how to play it as all abilities build towards the one and same end, be it boost your burst through X ability with Y buff etc. There's no customisation of gameplay, there can never be innovation within games such as TOR anymore because frankly - they removed it.

 

If you're new to gaming I can understand how all of this sounds odd and also, perhaps, far off. But let me tell you, the golden age of gaming has passed and at this point we're in a decline of quality - creating games nowadays are supposed to be addictive; they bring in experts to measure what keeps people playing, how to apply said mechanic and abuse your interest.

 

Gaming was about freedom, about being able to innovate, about being able to make a choice, a real choice - something that affected how your character played and looked. In today's games you will not get that, thats why you dont have a DYE function, thats why you cant CREATE your own custom gear - its within the limits that Bioware (and other companies) have decided. Points are most likely not coming back for a very long time, we're stuck with this illusion of choice class strenght vs class strenght scenario where equal players aren't going to draw - the fight is going to be decided on gear/class setup.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like this game. I might even be able to love it (despite all the catastrophies regarding the republic faction - Bioware has indeed let down an entire faction countless of times) if only there were activity, active servers etc. We all know that issue. The real issue is, though, playing games such as this one, no matter how much you like it, you'll still realize its only a shadow of what it could be, should be...

[Rabrac]

Man this is just starting to get to confusing for me. Every thread you see a combo of it is too much like WoW, no it just copied WoW exactly, no it sucks becuase they didn't do this the way WoW did, no this is an exact copy of WoW, I'm mad about LFG tool because it isn't cross-server like WoW, the only reason I'm staying is because they didn't screw up the LFG tool like WoW did and make it cross-server, no this is an exact WoW clone, I'm going back to WoW because of this feature and that feature, no this is a copy of WoW ... it is just tiring.

 

People here are worse than politicians!

 

You are right.

[MorgothPl]

Because it's not Dungeons and Dragons Online, where you could make some great builds, and had total control of your character development. But then devs got scared by people, who assign points randomly and gimped their characters beyond any use, so they are afraid to give players too much control, or we would see those posts "I gimped my sniper by investing in "presence" please fix, and your game suxx, I quit".

 

Though, the possibility that gives... like dual pick wielding barbarian based on dexterity, battle clerics, finesse melee rangers.

 

Ah good old times of DDO, when death during dungeon took back portions of your XP, quests were hard and demanded strategy and tactical play, resources like mana and spells were limited, and you had to think on how to move through traps. The Crucible with swimming in underwater current, avoiding deadly traps, only to get a quest item.... or a room that required you to show with acrobatic skills like running, jumping and navigating obstacles, to switch lever before door closed.

 

I miss those things in modern MMOs.

[Calsetes]

D&D ruleset

 

Right there's your reason why it worked, combined with the fact that it's not an MMO. A Dexterity-stacked fighter has talents and feats that allow him to be a dexterity-based fighter and still do well. Same with most of the other classes - there's always something useful that person could do in the party, just because of how the game system was designed.

 

Games like TOR, we don't have skills, feats, or anything. We have a few talents - and even with those, we're still extremely limited in what we can and can't pick. D&D "tank" can be wearing heavy armor OR be wearing almost nothing and have high Dexterity, and both can be fighters. Here, your choice is "heavily-armoredswordsman," "heavily-armored soldier," or "lightly-armored rogue." All three have one tree they pick skills from, and about 99% of the time they'll spend 40 points in that tree, which means they're missing at most four or five skills total from the entire tree. Your tank-spec Guardian is most likely going to be set up exactly like my tank-spec guardian, minus a skill or two.

 

That's just my thoughts on it, though.

[AdamLKvist]

Right there's your reason why it worked, combined with the fact that it's not an MMO. A Dexterity-stacked fighter has talents and feats that allow him to be a dexterity-based fighter and still do well. Same with most of the other classes - there's always something useful that person could do in the party, just because of how the game system was designed.

 

Games like TOR, we don't have skills, feats, or anything. We have a few talents - and even with those, we're still extremely limited in what we can and can't pick. D&D "tank" can be wearing heavy armor OR be wearing almost nothing and have high Dexterity, and both can be fighters. Here, your choice is "heavily-armoredswordsman," "heavily-armored soldier," or "lightly-armored rogue." All three have one tree they pick skills from, and about 99% of the time they'll spend 40 points in that tree, which means they're missing at most four or five skills total from the entire tree. Your tank-spec Guardian is most likely going to be set up exactly like my tank-spec guardian, minus a skill or two.

 

That's just my thoughts on it, though.

 

"There's no customisation of gameplay, there can never be innovation within games such as TOR anymore because frankly - they removed it."

 

Quoting myself, which is always a bad sign, sorry. I'm on your page, absolutely. The "new" MMORPG system of having 31 talent points trees is a huge reason why said innovation and customisation is being held back. Of course! You spend 30 talent points to get to the last one ability. Seeing as you spent so many points it has to be strong and "worth" it, but you're right. Builds looks more or less the same in this game, with the exception of 4-8 points, which is nothing of the total sum. Creates a pretty stale experience where your character isn't as much your own as it is "everyones"; see everyone else is using that same build as you are.

 

Good ol' D&D..! How I miss you!

[Sirsri]

Because it's not Dungeons and Dragons Online, where you could make some great builds, and had total control of your character development. But then devs got scared by people, who assign points randomly and gimped their characters beyond any use, so they are afraid to give players too much control, or we would see those posts "I gimped my sniper by investing in "presence" please fix, and your game suxx, I quit".

 

Though, the possibility that gives... like dual pick wielding barbarian based on dexterity, battle clerics, finesse melee rangers.

 

Ah good old times of DDO, when death during dungeon took back portions of your XP, quests were hard and demanded strategy and tactical play, resources like mana and spells were limited, and you had to think on how to move through traps. The Crucible with swimming in underwater current, avoiding deadly traps, only to get a quest item.... or a room that required you to show with acrobatic skills like running, jumping and navigating obstacles, to switch lever before door closed.

 

I miss those things in modern MMOs.

 

 

It's not just that they don't want you to gimp your own character, although that is definitely a serious problem, it's that the tuning range in an MMO is much much tighter than in D&D. It's not just that they've intentionally made it that cunning does nothing for a warrior, but they need to avoid accidentally massively overpowering people who do bizarre things. Lets say you should stack aim to 700 then cunning to 500 and then everything else strength, and that increased your dps by 25% over what we currently do. That would either trivialize hard modes, or require everyone do that so they can be successful, and that makes the game unnecessarily complex and confusing.

 

As it is your base stats don't matter much anyway, I have 250 base willpower, and 1432 from gear/buffs etc. Being able to to reallocate the base talent points wouldn't change much.

 

There are lots of stats you can move around and optimize on your own too. Power, crit surge, alacrity, potentially the defence stats. That's a lot of customization already, adding more to that may make the whole thing prohibitively complex.

[Matte_Black]

Let me put is simple for you. They copied WoW almost to the T, but left out some very significant quality of Life stuff

 

I sort of see that "quality of Life stuff" as cutting both ways, depending what you are into. Optimizers miss the fine-tuning while many appreciate the fact that alot of the numbers are left "behind the curtain". Some folks want a more complex numbers-based game while others want streamlined/easily accessible and story-oriented. It's more of a question of preference than being any more or less well-designed. Sometimes it just comes down to buying the right game for you.