SWTOR: Lacking in appeal for the casual gamer?

[CosmicKat]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-08-ea-blames-star-wars-the-old-republic-subscribers-fall-on-casuals-leaving-game

 

Upon reading this, I became a little disenfranchised with the way management is treating SWTOR. As a company, any business that involves customers should take the stance not to blame customers, ever. When you blame the consumer, you end up with a dead product.

 

Moreover, I do believe that SWTOR needs more features to appeal to casual MMO players. An MMO is a hard thing to make. You need to appeal to a wide audience, from most casual to most hardcore. The wider the appeal, the more popular the game will be. What do you guys think of this?

 

This is the most casual MMO I've ever played.

 

If it gets any more casual, I will be able to train my cat to craft for me while I'm at work.

[zerosaint]

Casual players do not enjoy repetitive content. This game is nothing but repetitive at endgame.

[Thannate]

Yeah, I'm having trouble understanding this one as well.

 

it's showing the disconnect (or denial) between a single player story driven minded developer and the "give me moar pvp and interaction with other players" community. ... makes perfect sense to me...

Edited May 10, 2012 by Thannate

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

My feelings are that some casual gamers probably get a very "non-casual" feeling from the game, due to some of the design choices that have been made.

 

For example:

 

1. Costs: This is a big one. There is massive cost attached to EVERYTHING, which gives the game the feeling of being a grinder. Think about the costs associated with:

 

• Training
  
• Speeders / Speeder Training
  
• Crafting Training
  
• Repairs
  
• Mod Removal on Orange Armor
  
• Inventory / Bank Slot Increase
  
• Legacy Unlocks
  

 

You start adding up those costs for someone who isn't out farming crafting materials for the GTN, or farming credits and trash loot to sell, and pretty quickly, it becomes more of a chore to enjoy this game than it needs to be. In several of these instances, other games give these sorts of perks and transactions to players for free. For a casual player that only plays 1-2 hours a day, or maybe 5-8 hours in a week, the costs associated with basic gameplay function can severely damper character progress, or at the least, the fun you have while trying to progress.

 

As a casual gamer to the core I have to say that you are incorrect here. I have a Lvl 44 Guardian, a Lvl 43 Mercenary and a Level 25 Tooper (so I can make best use of rested xp). All of these have had no credit problems at all with any of the above bar legacy unlocks (which I haven't really looked at when it comes to paid ones). Every time I wanted to do any of the other things in that list I had enough credits solely from soloing the missions. The only thing I haven't been able to do as soon as I got the requisite level is buy the 2nd speeder skill for the BH, but that is only because I have been hitting the companion gift missions continuously to raise affection on all my companions (Mako is almost done on 9.8K, Gault and Torian are now both on about 4.5k without ever using them and Blizz and the droid are rising fast as well). Even so I have never had less than 125k credits available since I hit level 40. And I have never put anything on the GTN for sale.

 

I have almost maxed armstech on my BH and Artifice on my Guardian exceeds my level needs (i.e. new blue hilts etc ready when I hit the odd numbered levels) and that is just by picking up all the materials that pop up on my map while doing missions. Crafting in SWTOR is really very, very easy compared to other games.

 

2. Solo-Leveling: While Levels 1-25 can be solo'd pretty easily, as you get past Chapter 1, the difficulty of leveling increases substantially. Silver mobs start hitting like Mack trucks, and Golds start hitting like the Incredible Hulk. For a casual player, that may not have a complete grasp on their character's optimal operation, this can make leveling a frustrating task in short order, that even gear can't overcome. I play a Jedi Guardian (DPS Spec) as my main, and in general I am about 1-3 levels over the mobs I am fighting currently. Yet, if I don't have my pocket healer out, those mobs will rip me apart. How is it any fun to get torn apart as a Level 41, by mobs that are Level 38?

 

Sorry but soloing is easy, the only time I ever lose a fight is if I pull a Silver with adds and a 2nd Silver/Gold joins in. Both characters are ripping through Belsavis with ease and almost never die. Golds go down without being challenging when I'm about 2 levels above the quests. Almost all my deaths have been due to my PC sometimes lagging badly when I exit a cutscene directly into a fight, those times my companion usually dies before I can do anything to pull the aggro and then I start already damaged.

 

3. Flashpoint / Group content access: As of right now, this is very "casual unfriendly" because of the lack of an LFG tool, and thereby necessitates that a person be in a guild in order to do this content, especially on low-pop servers. I am fully aware that Bioware has plans for the LFG tool, but that isn't the point. Right now, in the current Live client, there is no LFG tool, and this is a major hinderance to casual players.

 

I would partially agree with this, I have done very little solo content. But this is due more to low populations when I play an my unwillingness to stand around doing an lfg in general chat.

 

Considering these 3 topics, I can totally believe that casuals would not hesitate to leave this game.

 

I am 100% a casual player, I do not raid and I don't PvP. I like to explore content. The reason I may leave the game is if there is not enough new content added during the time it takes me to get 4+ level 50s.

 

Casual gamers were never the majority to begin with. If they were, 1.3 million gamers would have left, and the 400k would be the ones still in this game.

 

Casual gamers are casual. They don't play the game for long. They are not the long-term gamers that will keep this going. They are not loyal. It is not good business sense to cater to them. It has nothing to do with lacking in appeal.

 

I've been playing 1 MMORPG game for 5 years, they keep adding new content.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[Bluetickone]

Pft...everyone and their brother knows this is one of one million BW/EA misrepresentations for the purpose of calming investors. Core MMO gamers a fleeing this game like they were on the Titanic in its final hour.

[Skidrowbro]

Casual players do not enjoy repetitive content. This game is nothing but repetitive at endgame.

 

Casual players do not blast through content and then complain that there is nothing to do:cool:

[GalacticKegger]

Casual players do not enjoy repetitive content. This game is nothing but repetitive at endgame.

I think casuals are simply players who schedule their gaming around real life and not the other way around. I consider myself casual. I explore, farm, craft (and make serious coin on the GTN from it), play through all the quest dialogues, LOVE wipe nights in level appropriate H4s, FPs & HMs, and even have fun running lowbies through FPs for gear and to just blow stuff up.

 

Casuals just aren't in a rush to pwn a game. I left "GO GO GO!" behind with WoW. As a casual I don't mind repetitive content if there is a goal and stuff to do & explore along the way. With a new 50, farming 600 daily comms across 4 planets and FPs/HMS for 2 implants and an earpiece is a goal that will take me a while to achieve. And there are WAY more carrots besides those. I couldn't care less about getting there yesterday. That's what makes me a casual imho.

Edited May 10, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Jeffleigh]

I think this game is really suited to casual players like me

 

I have several level 50s and a string of alts on both factions

 

I have fun with all the trades and gearing up my alts

 

Although I do some dailies on my 50s I am not going to bust myself getting into an ops group unless I can be with a nice relaxed group of people (been there, done that with end game gear grinding in other mmos)

 

I still see people pushing hard to get all the end game gear and do all the hard modes (I am in a large guild) - but I am more than happy to see them struggle away

 

Sure I would like to see things improved - but I have a lot of story lines to go yet and I want to see them all

[Vellusix]

My feelings are that some casual gamers probably get a very "non-casual" feeling from the game, due to some of the design choices that have been made.

 

For example:

 

1. Costs: This is a big one. There is massive cost attached to EVERYTHING, which gives the game the feeling of being a grinder. Think about the costs associated with:

 

• Training
  
• Speeders / Speeder Training
  
• Crafting Training
  
• Repairs
  
• Mod Removal on Orange Armor
  
• Inventory / Bank Slot Increase
  
• Legacy Unlocks
  

 

You start adding up those costs for someone who isn't out farming crafting materials for the GTN, or farming credits and trash loot to sell, and pretty quickly, it becomes more of a chore to enjoy this game than it needs to be. In several of these instances, other games give these sorts of perks and transactions to players for free. For a casual player that only plays 1-2 hours a day, or maybe 5-8 hours in a week, the costs associated with basic gameplay function can severely damper character progress, or at the least, the fun you have while trying to progress.

 

2. Solo-Leveling: While Levels 1-25 can be solo'd pretty easily, as you get past Chapter 1, the difficulty of leveling increases substantially. Silver mobs start hitting like Mack trucks, and Golds start hitting like the Incredible Hulk. For a casual player, that may not have a complete grasp on their character's optimal operation, this can make leveling a frustrating task in short order, that even gear can't overcome. I play a Jedi Guardian (DPS Spec) as my main, and in general I am about 1-3 levels over the mobs I am fighting currently. Yet, if I don't have my pocket healer out, those mobs will rip me apart. How is it any fun to get torn apart as a Level 41, by mobs that are Level 38?

 

3. Flashpoint / Group content access: As of right now, this is very "casual unfriendly" because of the lack of an LFG tool, and thereby necessitates that a person be in a guild in order to do this content, especially on low-pop servers. I am fully aware that Bioware has plans for the LFG tool, but that isn't the point. Right now, in the current Live client, there is no LFG tool, and this is a major hinderance to casual players.

 

-----------------------

 

Considering these 3 topics, I can totally believe that casuals would not hesitate to leave this game.

 

I'm casual and I don't find any of these things to be a problem. It sounds like you're solo levelling wrong by the way... somehow.

[amantheil]

In that article, EA is using "casual" to mean something different than most of you. They just meant people who tried the game for a bit then stopped.

 

It's not referring to the false "hardcore" vs. "casual" dichotomy you alll think it is, where anyone who doesn't raid is a "casual'. I log on for a couple hours a few nights a week, level up slowly, occasionally PvP. By forum standards I am a "casual". But the fact that I logon almost every night means I don't fit in the definition of "casual" that article is referring too.

[Ironcleaver]

And here I thought that this was a game for casuals and the hardcore players were the ones to leave.

My whole guild full of hardcore players was gone, and then we got some more hardcore players, few weeks later - also gone.

 

All I see sticking to the game are casuals.

 

This is what I see as well. This game is for casuals more then anything. This is one of the easiest, fastest to level, mmos on the market.

 

Remove the multi-player aspect from the game and make it single player. Then create a randomized system for the GTN for gear and resources - Now you have the same game as far as PvE goes. For PvP just setup an arena server for people to connect too.. :-/

[Prenavo]

I'm not a bioware fanboy by far, but I do love this game. I've loved it since beta. I've played so many other mmo's as to consider myself well versed enough to type what I'm about to type.

 

1. It's an mmo. It is what it is. If you like it cool. If you don't, cool.

2. It's still in it's infancy. ALL other mmo's I've played including Rift had issues. Yes, Rift had a very smooth launch, but it did lack in features. They are really starting to make rift a great product, but how long did it take? WoW was not perfect at launch. It's still not perfect depending on who you talk to. If someone who played EQ1 when it first came out and quit within the first month or so, do you think they would recognize much of anything if they picked it back up today? Probably not. The point is that it takes time and patience to see games like this mature into what they will be. I personally knew this going in as it has been that way with all mmo's I've played before.

3. Bioware is still new at this mmo thing. Expect them to make mistakes. If you didn't expect a company that is new to the mmo arena to make mistakes, then you have rose colored glasses. Personally, I think they deserve some serious praise. They got the game out, the game was for the most part smooth at launch and really, not much to be said in the way of game breaking bugs. There were a few bad ones, but I think over time all will be well. Like all other mmo's new patches and updates introduce new problems. Nature of the beast. I'm not just saying this to lift up Bioware. Hell, it could be any company, I'd say the same thing. In all reality, the game is pretty cool.

4. In the end, it is truly your decision as to whether or not you enjoy and continue to play this game or move on to what you consider greener pastures. I'm not saying not to complain about the game, or point out things you find wrong with it. Doing so will only help the devs figure out ways to improve it. Will it get improved the second someone complains? Probably not. Once again, the nature of the beast. That said, if you really don't like it, no one is keeping you here. Don't spend your time with a product that you don't like. Drop your sub, go play Guild wars or Diablo or whatever floats your boat. Do whatever, but don't stick around the forums pointing out how horrible the game is unconstructively. Notice, I didn't say you couldn't point out it's faults. Just don't be a friggin' Troll. I've seen far too many of those on these forums that it makes me wanna puke.

 

Just remember folks, time and patience. If you don't have the patience..play something else then come back when it's up to YOUR standards of game play. Myself, I like seeing stuff like this evolve into something better, so I'll just stick around.

 

Please note, that this is not really a rant, just my point of view and is directed at NO ONE in this thread.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Prenavo

[Urael]

This is correct.

 

Take the Legacy system which in its current form has plenty of casual perks and very few hardcore perks. The problem with it is the monetary costs, asking a casual player to dedicate his entire playing to doing dailies for 2 weeks just to unlock that race he wants is crazy.

 

Casual base loves flashpoints, WoW proved this. However, without an LFD tool casuals are forced to make their own groups which cuts into playing time and they are unable to finish the FP.

 

In a nutshell,

 

Designed for casuals, implemented for hardcores

 

QFT!

 

Well Said.

[BucMan]

In that article, EA is using "casual" to mean something different than most of you. They just meant people who tried the game for a bit then stopped.

 

It's not referring to the false "hardcore" vs. "casual" dichotomy you alll think it is, where anyone who doesn't raid is a "casual'. I log on for a couple hours a few nights a week, level up slowly, occasionally PvP. By forum standards I am a "casual". But the fact that I logon almost every night means I don't fit in the definition of "casual" that article is referring too.

 

 

 

Something like this. They meant players who casually purchased the game, tried it, and found it wasn't for them. Not the die hard SW fans who bought it day one(or early on). It's just regular type gamers who also picked it up and found they didn't like it. Has nothing to do with playstyle or even mindset. Just like an avid MMOer can casually pick up a title from the FPS or racing genre, play it a while, figure out they don't like it, and put it down. As soon as I saw the quote I knew folks wouldn't understand it and try to take it at face value.

[Urael]

Something like this. They meant players who casually purchased the game, tried it, and found it wasn't for them. Not the die hard SW fans who bought it day one(or early on). It's just regular type gamers who also picked it up and found they didn't like it. Has nothing to do with playstyle or even mindset. Just like an avid MMOer can casually pick up a title from the FPS or racing genre, play it a while, figure out they don't like it, and put it down. As soon as I saw the quote I knew folks wouldn't understand it and try to take it at face value.

 

It also goes to show that EA/BW doesn't understand the "language" of the players of the product that they produce.

 

They also don't understand:

 

- Testing

- QA

- Customer Relations

-Custermer Service.

 

[Star-ranger]

Who knows what they mean by 'Casual'. You ask any number of gamers and you could get any number of answers.

 

Point is they are hemoraging players. Hard to tell if actual or potential subscriptions are falling.

 

I do know a lot of people unsubscribed after 1.2 due to changes in their favorite characters.

 

Rather than get into the Casual vs. Hardcore arguments, there are a number of things this game needs to fix.

 

Appeal: this game needs to appeal to more people than min-max players, and people who like to run around in WZ's and do Raid content at the end game. It needs to appeal to more than collectors who will grind and grind to get limited items.

 

This game has some features for Achiever and Killer types, but it's weak on features for Socializer and Explorer types. There's really very little to encourage people to play together other than the endgame raid content and PvP zones.

 

The strength of MMO's is community. People play together for a long time because they 1) make friends playing a game and 2) because there's fun things to do with their friends. This game has very little in the way of tools to build community. In that sense it was badly designed. A duo can master most of the story content. More than that and you're pretty much overpowering any of the spawns. You can only squeeze so much out of solo play and solo play doesn't encourage people to stay after the non-repeatable content is gone. This game may be too solo friendly (as in encouraging people to play alone too much).

 

The problem with the current spawns is that they're not dynamic. I.e. the spawns do not read the number and level of players in the vicinity and adjust themselves accordingly.

 

The problem with 4 man maximum groups for most conent is that it dosn't really encourage teaming; especially with companions. If it's just you and a friend why would you need anybody else.

 

I think the basic design of the game, while OK up through lvl 50, doesn't have enough going for it in the end game. Of course most current games don't either.

 

On the Mechanix of the game:

 

1. I'm not in love with the skill trees. They're geared to people who like to work out all the subtle tricks on how to optimize their characters. In that sense they're overly complicated for people who are not min-maxers. That's not friendly to nubie MMO players. A non-mmo player looks at those charts and is asked to make a decision about their character which they can't change--don't tell me that a nubie isn't intimidated by that.

 

2. Crafting is not particularly friendly as you get toward the upper levels. Missions that take 35+ minutes for your companion to complete slow things down a lot. That's not friendly to people who have limtied time to play or shorter attention spans.

 

3. Information about the game is not readily accessable to inexperienced players. There are many need to know aspects of the game the developers have been completely silent about on their site. Even WOW had skill trees on their main site for all the classes and archtypes. SWTOR doesn't , and it's not always easy to find the information you want or need, and I've played a number of MMO's.

 

4. I think the designers went too far in micro managing the classes to ensure they were 'different' enough. It actually stiffled customizing characters. Smugglers and Troopers should have been able to use any pistol, dual pistols, shotgun, carbine, rifle, or sniper rifle. Same for Imperial Agents & Bounty Hunters. All of them should have been able to use a melee weapon as well as a ranged one.

 

Lightsaber users should have been able to use any configuration of ligth saber they wished: single, dual, or double bladed. Each configuration should have been a 'form'. Let folks pick their form at level 10...and that gives them one of their trees. The other trees should have been defense, force, healing and let people pick from those. Jedi don't have enough common powers. Consulars and Knights should have had some common lightsaber moves and force powers; then added differentiation at advanced levels. The difference between a consular and a knight should be that the consular has more advanced force skills than the knight and the knight has more advanced fencing skills. Goes the same for Inqusitor and Sith Warior.

 

5. The ecconomy is broken, and superfuous from a crafting standpoint.

 

6. The arcade space game is very limited in entertainment value. There should have been 3D flyable ships with open space around planets in which there could be ship to ship combat off the rails.

 

7. Crafters should have had the option of changing the colors on clothing and armor... and there should have been somewhere to change appearance in game in case you got tired of looking at the same hair and /or mask.

 

8. There should have been more social activietes and locations in the game as has been mentioned.

 

9. There should have been sandbox areas in the game outside the class story arcs with random repeatable missions.

 

Oh well, there's a ton of stuff that should have been done that wasn't . We'll see what the future holds.

[Urael]

Who knows what they mean by 'Casual'. You ask any number of gamers and you could get any number of answers.

 

Point is they are hemoraging players. Hard to tell if actual or potential subscriptions are falling.

 

I do know a lot of people unsubscribed after 1.2 due to changes in their favorite characters.

 

Rather than get into the Casual vs. Hardcore arguments, there are a number of things this game needs to fix.

 

Appeal: this game needs to appeal to more people than min-max players, and people who like to run around in WZ's and do Raid content at the end game. It needs to appeal to more than collectors who will grind and grind to get limited items.

 

This game has some features for Achiever and Killer types, but it's weak on features for Socializer and Explorer types. There's really very little to encourage people to play together other than the endgame raid content and PvP zones.

 

The strength of MMO's is community. People play together for a long time because they 1) make friends playing a game and 2) because there's fun things to do with their friends. This game has very little in the way of tools to build community. In that sense it was badly designed. A duo can master most of the story content. More than that and you're pretty much overpowering any of the spawns. You can only squeeze so much out of solo play and solo play doesn't encourage people to stay after the non-repeatable content is gone. This game may be too solo friendly (as in encouraging people to play alone too much).

 

The problem with the current spawns is that they're not dynamic. I.e. the spawns do not read the number and level of players in the vicinity and adjust themselves accordingly.

 

The problem with 4 man maximum groups for most conent is that it dosn't really encourage teaming; especially with companions. If it's just you and a friend why would you need anybody else.

 

I think the basic design of the game, while OK up through lvl 50, doesn't have enough going for it in the end game. Of course most current games don't either.

 

On the Mechanix of the game:

 

1. I'm not in love with the skill trees. They're geared to people who like to work out all the subtle tricks on how to optimize their characters. In that sense they're overly complicated for people who are not min-maxers. That's not friendly to nubie MMO players. A non-mmo player looks at those charts and is asked to make a decision about their character which they can't change--don't tell me that a nubie isn't intimidated by that.

 

2. Crafting is not particularly friendly as you get toward the upper levels. Missions that take 35+ minutes for your companion to complete slow things down a lot. That's not friendly to people who have limtied time to play or shorter attention spans.

 

3. Information about the game is not readily accessable to inexperienced players. There are many need to know aspects of the game the developers have been completely silent about on their site. Even WOW had skill trees on their main site for all the classes and archtypes. SWTOR doesn't , and it's not always easy to find the information you want or need, and I've played a number of MMO's.

 

4. I think the designers went too far in micro managing the classes to ensure they were 'different' enough. It actually stiffled customizing characters. Smugglers and Troopers should have been able to use any pistol, dual pistols, shotgun, carbine, rifle, or sniper rifle. Same for Imperial Agents & Bounty Hunters. All of them should have been able to use a melee weapon as well as a ranged one.

 

Lightsaber users should have been able to use any configuration of ligth saber they wished: single, dual, or double bladed. Each configuration should have been a 'form'. Let folks pick their form at level 10...and that gives them one of their trees. The other trees should have been defense, force, healing and let people pick from those. Jedi don't have enough common powers. Consulars and Knights should have had some common lightsaber moves and force powers; then added differentiation at advanced levels. The difference between a consular and a knight should be that the consular has more advanced force skills than the knight and the knight has more advanced fencing skills. Goes the same for Inqusitor and Sith Warior.

 

5. The ecconomy is broken, and superfuous from a crafting standpoint.

 

6. The arcade space game is very limited in entertainment value. There should have been 3D flyable ships with open space around planets in which there could be ship to ship combat off the rails.

 

7. Crafters should have had the option of changing the colors on clothing and armor... and there should have been somewhere to change appearance in game in case you got tired of looking at the same hair and /or mask.

 

8. There should have been more social activietes and locations in the game as has been mentioned.

 

9. There should have been sandbox areas in the game outside the class story arcs with random repeatable missions.

 

Oh well, there's a ton of stuff that should have been done that wasn't . We'll see what the future holds.

 

QFT!

 

Well said!

[Talon_strikes]

This article seems to be just another round of rubbish spouted by EA Executives to minimize their gross mismanagement of TOR in an attempt to save their jobs. Unfortunately, it does not help those 1000+ EA employees who lost their jobs do to their executives incompetence

I heard that statement about EA laying off a lot of workers was not true. I think they denied the accusations.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

4. I think the designers went too far in micro managing the classes to ensure they were 'different' enough. It actually stiffled customizing characters. Smugglers and Troopers should have been able to use any pistol, dual pistols, shotgun, carbine, rifle, or sniper rifle. Same for Imperial Agents & Bounty Hunters. All of them should have been able to use a melee weapon as well as a ranged one.

 

Lightsaber users should have been able to use any configuration of ligth saber they wished: single, dual, or double bladed. Each configuration should have been a 'form'. Let folks pick their form at level 10...and that gives them one of their trees. The other trees should have been defense, force, healing and let people pick from those. Jedi don't have enough common powers. Consulars and Knights should have had some common lightsaber moves and force powers; then added differentiation at advanced levels. The difference between a consular and a knight should be that the consular has more advanced force skills than the knight and the knight has more advanced fencing skills. Goes the same for Inqusitor and Sith Warior.

 

While I agree with your other points this one sticks out the most for me. I was highly disappointed that my Jedi Shadow MUST use a double bladed saber. I'd much rather duel wield or use a single saber. I just don't like the Double bladed saber look but if I'm going to use many of my Shadow's abilities I NEED to use the double bladed saber. So if I used anything other than the double bladed saber I'd be gimping myself compared to a Shadow that does use a double bladed saber. I'm still hoping that they fix this so Jedi/Sith classes don't have lightsaber style restrictions and that advanced class choice doesn't limit your ability to use the starting weapon type of the basic class.

 

I understand that it would be difficult coding/designing new moves for a whole slew of new weapons but perhaps they could just port existing combat moves to be used on abilities. For example if a Shadow dual wielding used Double Strike it would activate whatever the Double Strike equivalent is on the Jedi Sentinel. Basically as you suggested make them stances so the attack moves would be the same even if the name of the move varied depending on the class. Doing something like this might be a really awesome Legacy perk (provided the stances unlocked when you choose the advanced class, it would be less fun/useful if you had to first get the advanced class all the way to level 50).

[Kharnis]

It also goes to show that EA/BW doesn't understand the "language" of the players of the product that they produce.

 

They also don't understand:

 

- Testing

- QA

- Customer Relations

-Custermer Service.

 

 

You do realise that the conference call was done by people who aren't gamers, for people who aren't gamers, right? They don't need to "understand" what the word "casual" means to a gamer, because that definition is irelevant.

[MandoArc]

from 1 to 49 casual ones you hit 50 is all hardcore dont know what air and showers is mmorpg grind the make wow loook like a casual game wish i think it is more casual then this end game wise

[Guajolote]

There's nothing hardcore about this game to appeal to what gamers consider hardcore.

 

The pvp is too broken for hardcore pvpers (ability delay, class imbalances, healers frustrated).

 

The pve is way too easy. It's harder to get a group started than it is to finish the actual content. Hardcore pvers in WoW compete for world first kills, usually with a raiding schedule that includes at least five days a week and four hours a day of just raiding. Even with that rigorous a schedule it can still take considerable time to clear heroic raids. Is there even a torprogress.com?

 

And lol to anyone that thinks hardcore pvers use the lfr. Lfr is there for casuals. Hardcores raid in their guilds on a schedule. The gear from lfr is worse than the heroic drops hardcores got from older content. It's simply a tool to help casuals see the latest content and get some gear so they might progress to the regular raid and eventually maybe the heroic version.

 

Tor has nothing to attract hardcores. This game is about as casual as could be imagined.

[Darkulous]

Tor has nothing to attract hardcores. This game is about as casual as could be imagined.

 

And they whiffed on that too. Casuals need features. This game is a barren wasteland of features.

[Skidrowbro]

And they whiffed on that too. Casuals need features. This game is a barren wasteland of features.

 

All casuals need is a character, a story and things to kill.

[Darkulous]

All casuals need is a character, a story and things to kill.

 

That's FPS players. Story is not a gamebreaker though.