Subs down 25%

[MrSIlverSurfing]

i dont know,Tera must not be very grindy for an asian grinder if a bunch of casuals on sw tor talk about it

 

Tera is awesome!

[MrSIlverSurfing]

We cleared everything this game had to offer pre-1.2. We cleared everything in those "other games" with world top 20 rankings. Today, us "casuals" are trying our hand out at a different game. That game happens to be Tera. Not one of us thought the game would be any good ... funny thing is, we're all having fun again. So while you sit here and label everyone "casuals," some of us are enjoying ourselves elsewhere ... plowing through content in the same manner in which we've always done.

 

In the end, it's about entertainment. Something that SWTOR just isn't delivering to us right now. We're gamers, we game. We don't over analyze games and write-up huge blogs about our dislike for games. We simply play together and have fun. When that fun begins to fade, we move on.

 

But I'll gladly take the title of "casual" if it makes you feel superior because you're not one ...

 

I was suprised on how many large world first SWTOR guilds went to Tera. Tera forums are very inactive though. I'm guessing to many folks playing the game. I like the TOR forums better. Give me something to do to pass the day at work

[Tiaa]

I hate the terms "hardcore" and "casual" .

 

Especially the way Bioware is using it because it makes no sense at all.

 

People are either paying for the game or they aren't. Period.

 

If I never play but have a subscription active am I hardcore then?

 

 

And I said before that when DE said, "the subscription number hasn't changed" it was a very mendacious thing to say. So you mean to tell me that subscriptions haven't went up or down?

 

I think for most it was obvious they were going down.

 

Dead dying servers. Game price drops. Tons of free weekends. Free month for 50s. Free comebacks for anyone with an account. More free time/weekends incoming...I highly doubt this game even has 1.3 million and we will find out how low it gets in the next report. Why can't this game just go free 2 play?

 

There is nothing wrong with F2P.

 

They can STILL have a premium type subscription with an optional legacy type cash shop.

 

They will get MORE players into the game. But we all want to sit in fantasy land and pretend 1000's of people are dropping out of this game weekly...

 

When do we stop to actually admit this game DOES have a problem?

 

And using "OH 1.3 Million is still great!", it's doing better than alot of other MMOS...etc.

 

This game cost more than ANY MMO EVER ,was the most hyped MMO ever, used one of the BIGGESTS IPs ever and Bioware had a good name for themselves, at the time.

 

It should have more subscribers than WoW ever did by that.

[DarthOvertone]

I think D3 and GW2 will impact player activity more than subscriptions.

 

GW2 Beta and Tera already did. Just last weekend during the GW2 Beta, both of the Fleet pops on the PvP servers I play on dropped to half their normal number. Who cares if peeps are subscribed if they don't login?

Edited May 8, 2012 by DarthOvertone

[Dezzi]

GW2 Beta and Tera already did. Just last weekend during the GW2 Beta, both of the Fleet pops on the PvP servers I play on dropped to half their normal number. Who cares if peeps are subscribed if they don't login?

 

Which I'm sure was expected, but it's hard to say that when the "shininess" of GW2 and TERA wears off that the concurrent user decline will amount to subscription decline.

 

In other words, GW2 and TERA are shiny right now.

[Muskaan]

Which I'm sure was expected, but it's hard to say that when the "shininess" of GW2 and TERA wears off that the concurrent user decline will amount to subscription decline.

 

In other words, GW2 and TERA are shiny right now.

 

Yes, this is correct. SWTOR's shininess just wore off. And people left. Same thing will happen to both GW2 and TERA. People will move from them as well.

 

So, the question for new MMO makers -- how do you retain players beyond the honeymoon period.

[Dezzi]

Yes, this is correct. SWTOR's shininess just wore off. And people left. Same thing will happen to both GW2 and TERA. People will move from them as well.

 

So, the question for new MMO makers -- how do you retain players beyond the honeymoon period.

 

I'm not sure they can.

[Muskaan]

I'm not sure they can.

 

I agree.

 

I think Game Publishers need to move away from the MMO genre as a whole.

 

World of Warcraft was just a freak of nature and its success cannot be duplicated ever (even by Blizzard again).

Edited May 8, 2012 by Muskaan

[Tuscad]

 

So, the question for new MMO makers -- how do you retain players beyond the honeymoon period.

 

You release the MMO with all the features of a basic mmo while having 5 years worth of content completed and release it regularly over a 5 year period while designing new content.

[Caille]

I wonder how many 6 month subs have left.

 

My spouse and I did and we were both 6 months with the +1 freebie. That means they can count us til July. Considering we are gone seems a bit odd to still be "counted" as an active sub.

 

Either way to those that stay and enjoy the game, have a great time! I tried to love the game, and did in testing, but live and their handling of things just did not sit well with me. Will still keep a weather eye on the horizon to see if a good wind brings TOR back my way.

 

 

Alexis

*smiles*

[Esquire]

OK, let's really see what we've learned here, from the release and this thread, as a matter of fact.

 

2.4 million boxes. Great launch, hype was well done, and the IP was a large draw. Most of those 2.4, I would think, at least tried the game so BW had the right amount of servers for that time. From that number, BW did not put up servers they didn't need or want.

 

Feb. 1.7 mil paying subs. No matter how you can it, the game lost 700K subs from the boxes sold. Does it happen with other MMOs? Probably, but that would be a concern to me as I am sure it was to BW, LA, and EA.

 

April. 1.3 mil subs. Another loss of 400K in 3 months time. That's a sub bleed of over 133,333 subs per/month. LA and SOE went panic city, after CU, of a sub loss of 10K per/mo (Rubenfiled's blog) and did the NGE which basicly "tanked" SWG. What would they have done with 1.3 hundred thousand sub bleed? Interesting to note that some of the exact same players are involved this time around also. LA is involved and a large percentage of the who's who in SOE, from the NGE, are involved this time around also. Dallas Dickerson, if memory serves, was there for NGE as well as others in BW's top people. Further complicated by statements from EA that 1 mil subs is a "nothing to write home about" profit margin. For all thise that say the IP will carry TOR, take a good look at SWG. It didn't help there, in fact it became a detriment as players stated that with a draw IP such as Star Wars, why wasn't the game as good as the IP or the movies? And when it became time for a closure, LA and even SOE, had no qualms about it at all. The game went south even with that big, draw, IP and it's just as closed as any other game that went thru this stuff.

 

Ok, so what we all know, by simply looking at out guilds and friends list is now proven true and goes thru all the spin, hype, and even some down-right lies.. People are leaving TOR for other games, due to other reasons, etc. So the 64 dollar question, is what to do about it. Here's the constructive critisium part.

 

BW's part;

1. Please, no more spin. If you have problems with patches, sub numbers, bugs, then level with your clients. Maybe there's even something we can do to help. It would seem that some or most want this game to succeed and we become vested almost as much as you are. Leave the SOE mode of doing business at SOE, Yoda may have said it best; "You have to unlearn what you have learned".

2. Poll your remaining subcribers. Many of us will be more than happy to tell you what is needed, wanted, expected in this game that would cause us to subscribe for years. (just like WoW and SWG in fact). Then, get it on the white board and to development. Use the community as a resouce and not a "us and them" game with development being the ever-knowledgeable and omnipotent "Q" of SW:TOR. Quit telling us that it's "working as intended". If we don't like it, your not going to get our money. It's really that simple an equation. Be willing to back-track if that's what it takes. Sometimes "cool" doesn't transfer to a game or it's sub base well. Start using "adds" to underpowered profs instead of NERFs for overpowered profs. NERFS cause cancelations, pure and simple. There's always going to be some1 ticked off enough due to the fact you took something away to go find that magical cancelation button.

3. Functionality. You really have to find out what's with all the engine problems. Your game does not "flow" well. Misfires all over the place (but the global cooldown still applys), lag when all of these "cool" animations come up or when there is more than 1 or 2 players in the same scene. If you have overloaded the engine, state so, and get the communitys feedback on what we can get rid of to make the game more playable.

4. Rebalance your solo difficulty. You are gateing some players from your game just to shear difficulty on gameplay and amount of specials to keep track of. I've seen it in my own guild and I'm sure others have as well.

5. Design and impliment a CS system that actualy works. I recently made a thread on the CS forums, was told it was my computer, and when it wasn't, crickets, and then finaly a answer that said file a ticket. I thought that was what I did in making a thread. Get some GMs that can actualy log onto a toon and fix the immediate problems instead of just the pat answers in an email.

 

Community;

1. Quit telling players to quit. If they do what your telling them to, then it detracts from your gameplay as you don't sell to them, you can't kill them in PVP, they're not there to run HM or OPS with, and their $ helps you get the further development that you want.

2. Not ev1 is going to simply love the game as you do. A little negativity can be a good thing as a double check for BW. If it gets out of hand, then BW mods will step in. Report and let them do their job.

3. The guys who act like all they want is the game to fail due to the fact they are dissapointed, please take a step back, a deep breath, and get a new look on life. TOR going down will not solve your problem(s) with the game. By all means, make your opinions known but the things said by people at the last Star Wars game did nothing to resolve the CU, NGE, or C6CD and all it done was insure the failure for the people that still enjoyed it. If BW makes the mistake you just can't get by, let them know, and move on. Believe it or not, your canceled sub will say alot more to BW, LA, and EA than countless rants on their forums and mean a whole bunch more. We all seen the spin included in this report from EA trying to calm investors minds and fears.

 

There is a very good thread on why people are qutting this game. A total treasure trove of knowledge is included therein. BW, it would be a very smart deal to read each and every post, talk about it in your meetings, and then act accordingly.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Esquire

[Alkiii]

I'm not sure they can.

 

Here's how they can (in my honest opinion):

 

Give the next "big" MMO more of a sandbox.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing that is decorated by items created by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP based on gear ONLY made by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP that allows corpse looting after a successful kill.

 

Give the next "big" MMO an insurance option to insure the items lost when being killed in PvP. (Thus keeping said items upon death).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be attacked in the open world (no instances).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be killed by one guild or stolen by another guild by overtaking the boss encounter and successfully killing the boss AND the players that first attempted to kill said boss (PvP servers only).

 

Give the next "big" MMO no faction alignment. Kill or be killed openly and freely in the open world. (for example: A Sith who kills both Republic AND Empire players anywhere outside of major cities/planets, etc.

 

 

 

I can go on and on ... but MMO's, to me, need to feel more like an MMO. Not this linear crap we've seen since 2004.

[MikelGoff]

 

Here's how they can (in my honest opinion):

 

Give the next "big" MMO more of a sandbox.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing that is decorated by items created by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP based on gear ONLY made by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP that allows corpse looting after a successful kill.

 

Give the next "big" MMO an insurance option to insure the items lost when being killed in PvP. (Thus keeping said items upon death).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be attacked in the open world (no instances).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be killed by one guild or stolen by another guild by overtaking the boss encounter and successfully killing the boss AND the players that first attempted to kill said boss (PvP servers only).

 

Give the next "big" MMO no faction alignment. Kill or be killed openly and freely in the open world. (for example: A Sith who kills both Republic AND Empire players anywhere outside of major cities/planets, etc.

 

 

 

I can go on and on ... but MMO's, to me, need to feel more like an MMO. Not this linear crap we've seen since 2004.

 

So they should make a big game that will get maybe 200k subscribers if they're lucky?

[Dezzi]

So they should make a big game that will get maybe 200k subscribers if they're lucky?

 

Not every game has to have millions of subscribers to be successful. I know the suits seem to think this is the case, but when you look at games like EVE Online, the proof is in the pudding.

[Benfynyn]

 

Here's how they can (in my honest opinion):

 

Give the next "big" MMO more of a sandbox.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing that is decorated by items created by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP based on gear ONLY made by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP that allows corpse looting after a successful kill.

 

Give the next "big" MMO an insurance option to insure the items lost when being killed in PvP. (Thus keeping said items upon death).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be attacked in the open world (no instances).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be killed by one guild or stolen by another guild by overtaking the boss encounter and successfully killing the boss AND the players that first attempted to kill said boss (PvP servers only).

 

Give the next "big" MMO no faction alignment. Kill or be killed openly and freely in the open world. (for example: A Sith who kills both Republic AND Empire players anywhere outside of major cities/planets, etc.

 

 

 

I can go on and on ... but MMO's, to me, need to feel more like an MMO. Not this linear crap we've seen since 2004.

 

I like where your head is at. You should check out The Repopulation

[Kalfear]

 

Here's how they can (in my honest opinion):

 

Give the next "big" MMO more of a sandbox.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing that is decorated by items created by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP based on gear ONLY made by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP that allows corpse looting after a successful kill.

 

Give the next "big" MMO an insurance option to insure the items lost when being killed in PvP. (Thus keeping said items upon death).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be attacked in the open world (no instances).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be killed by one guild or stolen by another guild by overtaking the boss encounter and successfully killing the boss AND the players that first attempted to kill said boss (PvP servers only).

 

Give the next "big" MMO no faction alignment. Kill or be killed openly and freely in the open world. (for example: A Sith who kills both Republic AND Empire players anywhere outside of major cities/planets, etc.

 

 

 

I can go on and on ... but MMO's, to me, need to feel more like an MMO. Not this linear crap we've seen since 2004.

 

yeah that game has already come and gone and failled on numberous occations!

 

Those that refuse to learn from history are bound to make the same mistakes over and over.

[Goretzu]

yeah that game has already come and gone and failled on numberous occations!

Those that refuse to learn from history are bound to make the same mistakes over and over.

 

 

Yup, just like the endless "themepark" MMORPGs that try to be WoW 1.5 and fail.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Goretzu

[Kalfear]

Not every game has to have millions of subscribers to be successful. I know the suits seem to think this is the case, but when you look at games like EVE Online, the proof is in the pudding.

 

True Dezzi but whats Eves development cost? Advertising costs? Overhead?

 

I guarentee you its not 1/100th of what TORs was.

 

So they can afford to run on a couple hundread thousand subs

 

When people speak of MMORPGs in this thread and beyond its about a big budget big release MMORPG and for that game, 200,000 subs doesnt cut the mustard!

 

I mean if thats what your going to say works, Arch Age is upcoming.

Just ssend the so called sandboxers (50% of them dont even understand the term sadly) to that game.

Small budget, small overhead, doesnt need 1 million subs to stay ahead of curve (yes yes to who ever wants to quote the 500,000 sub statment made. Breaking even is not what the investors of this game want or call success).

[Bluetickone]

Some info to those who are to lazy to search them self

 

Let me provide you with an update on Star Wars:

 

Through the end of the quarter, approximately 2.4 million units have sold through. In our last

call we indicated that we had 1.7 million active subscribers, and as of the end of April we now

have 1.3 million, with a substantial portion of the decrease due to casual and trial players

cycling out of the subscriber base, driving up the overall percentage of paying subscribers.

We have already launched a number of initiatives designed to grow subscriptions.[/i]

 

 

Nope, its the craptastic patch known as 1.2. Tisk tisk EA, you gotta be more careful about what you say to investors. Lie to you playerbase, fine TOS is a great CYA. Lie to your investors and the 1934 Securities Exchange Act is gonna hit you like a brick wall.

[Kalfear]

Yup, just like the endless "themepark" MMORPGs that try to be WoW 1.5 and fail.

 

True but even though im not happy with TOR

 

2.4 million boxes sold tell us people still willing to embrace the concept of the themepark

 

All the success's over time from EQ to DAoC to the Asian markets to WOW tell us themepark works

 

Sandbox has UO (everyone bailed soon as there was competition and choice)

SWG 70% cancellation in first month and 3 total revamps to try and salvage a dead game

and ....nope thats it as big budget Sandboxes, every other title was very small budget or failed out the gates.

 

Listen I dont like the copying of WOW either.

But that doesnt support the change to sandbox in the slightest

That just supports not coping WOW!

[Zannis]

Lessons that future MMOs can take away from SWTOR:

 

Don't release your product if it isn't ready, even if you've already dropped hundreds of millions and spent more than half a decade working on it. You can't undo a bad first impression, and most subs that are gone will stay gone.

 

Have the mechanics in place to support the initial rush during launch and the inevitable decline in the months to follow. This means having the systems in place to transfer characters and merge servers on day one. On top of that, you can't have meaningful PTS testing without players being able to copy over their characters.

 

Match making systems for Coop/PvE play is a necessity. I understand the arguments for community, and how the lack of a group finder fosters that community, but community won't save the majority of the servers that are ghost towns. In today's day and age, if you aren't grouping up your players, you're a dinosaur. Look at how TOR's dev team had to scramble and make the group finder a priority for the next major patch. The fact that there is empirical evidence to back this claim up moves it further away from opinion and more towards the realm of fact.

 

Don't promise what you can't deliver, especially highly anticipated features. Such as ranked Warzones and world PvP.

[MikelGoff]

Not every game has to have millions of subscribers to be successful. I know the suits seem to think this is the case, but when you look at games like EVE Online, the proof is in the pudding.

 

Except EVE Online is not what I'd call a "big MMO". That would say it had even the funding that WoW did when it was first made, which is doubtful. Small MMO can cater to a small audience, but big MMOs cannot.

[Goretzu]

True but even though im not happy with TOR

 

2.4 million boxes sold tell us people still willing to embrace the concept of the themepark

 

All the success's over time from EQ to DAoC to the Asian markets to WOW tell us themepark works

 

Sandbox has UO (everyone bailed soon as there was competition and choice)

SWG 70% cancellation in first month and 3 total revamps to try and salvage a dead game

and ....nope thats it as big budget Sandboxes, every other title was very small budget or failed out the gates.

 

Listen I dont like the copying of WOW either.

But that doesnt support the change to sandbox in the slightest

That just supports not coping WOW!

 

I'm not sure I'd describe EQ1 (vannilla to SoV) or DAoC (again vannilla to a few expansions in ) "themepark" exactly.

 

The phrase seems to have been invented in the post-WoW world.

 

EQ1 and DAoC had the level based design rather than skill based designed, but neither really was remenisant of say SWTOR in those days in the concepts that apparently make SWTOR "Themepark".

[river]

I call ********.

 

I keep hoping Elder Scroll Online is going to do it!

 

if its wow with an elder scrolls skin im not too sure it will

[Phenyr]

 

Here's how they can (in my honest opinion):

 

Give the next "big" MMO more of a sandbox.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing.

 

Give the next "big" MMO player housing that is decorated by items created by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP based on gear ONLY made by player professions.

 

Give the next "big" MMO world PvP that allows corpse looting after a successful kill.

 

Give the next "big" MMO an insurance option to insure the items lost when being killed in PvP. (Thus keeping said items upon death).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be attacked in the open world (no instances).

 

Give the next "big" MMO bosses that can be killed by one guild or stolen by another guild by overtaking the boss encounter and successfully killing the boss AND the players that first attempted to kill said boss (PvP servers only).

 

Give the next "big" MMO no faction alignment. Kill or be killed openly and freely in the open world. (for example: A Sith who kills both Republic AND Empire players anywhere outside of major cities/planets, etc.

 

 

 

I can go on and on ... but MMO's, to me, need to feel more like an MMO. Not this linear crap we've seen since 2004.

 

you add all you want as long the game itself has no flavour, nor charisma you name it will most likely end up like all the mmo that try to take a piece of cake from WoW's table

 

This game ToR...its very generic thats what makes it so dull....you know that feeling its just not there

Edited May 8, 2012 by Phenyr