Galbatorrix Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 What about people who have come to dislike aspects of the game, feel slighted or otherwise disappointed, but have time remaining on their accounts and decide to bring their dissatisfaction to the forum? Here's the point I'm trying to make: If the goal is to avoid posts that are unsupported by constructive feedback, then we have to admit that positive posts which amount to nothing more than "I LUV TEH GAEM" are just as annoying and unhelpful as "I HAET GAM" posts. A constructive positive post will feature reasons why the player likes the game or specific features in it.. The same is true of constructive negative posts, which should include reasons why the player doesn't like the game or particular features in it. I just don't like this sense that negative posts are intrinsically less valuable simply because of the negativity. I'm arguing against nonconstructive posts across the board--positive and negative alike. I never said that blind love posts were constructive or useful. I just said they have a valid reason to exist here. If a player hates the game, is quitting the game, etc, why is this person still posting? They really let a GAME make them so angry that they just had to spread around the hate or try to convince others that their hate is gospel? There is something wrong with people like this. I mean, if you went and played mini golf for the first time and hated it, what would then be your course of action? Would you just never go back, or would you curse out the owner, make a huge scene as you're leaving the building and finally stand out in the parking lot telling everyone that comes by how horrible mini golf is and how they're all blind if they enjoy it? Which of these two options seem the most rational? I'm arguing with the logic behind various forms of posting here. The only ones that are lacking any are the blind hate threads. So, those are the only ones that really have no place here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I just said they have a valid reason to exist here. If a player hates the game, is quitting the game, etc, why is this person still posting? There is or could be a multitude of reasons. 1, they are hoping someone offers a unique perspective or a new reason to stay. 2, they are hoping to improve the game while they are gone for either the people after them or the people still playing. 3, they are hoping the developers fix whatever is causing them to leave so they can stay. 4, its entertaining. 5, they hope other developers who read this forum (and believe me, other game developers do) see things that work/didn't work. 6, they hope to perhaps alter the devs sense of direction so that the game can become what they want it to be. I'm sure there is more. Here is one for you - if you like the game so much, why aren't you in game playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwnshoppe Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Honestly, I would argue that this is a direct result of the orwellian type patrolling of the forums that the "community management" team does. They remove so many posts that are mildly scathing to the game. That breeds ill-will in the community. They the community comes back and post more and more vile posts. Then the cycle repeats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Really. I'm curious why baseless praise is acceptable, but baseless criticism is not--beyond the very personal value judgement that positivity is more acceptable than negativity. The same reason it's socially acceptable for someone to tell their ugly wife she's pretty but not okay for you to tell her she's ugly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaith Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Could not be more true. is it me, or does he look like Gordon Freeman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Honestly, I would argue that this is a direct result of the orwellian type patrolling of the forums that the "community management" team does. They remove so many posts that are mildly scathing to the game. That breeds ill-will in the community. They the community comes back and post more and more vile posts. Then the cycle repeats. You can't be serious. I see several hate threads on page one that have been there for a pretty long time. Do you not think they should remove dupes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythoris Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Not everyone in this forum has a PhD in English or is a master in literary debates. The art of providing constructive and totally subjective criticism takes years to develop. SWTOR forums is not like a debate on BBC. We are gamers here in this forum. Our feedback will be crude, direct and often crass. That's how we are and that's how we shall be. And yet, our feedback in this forum is more valuable to Bioware than the opinionated mediocre articles that TORWars prints. Thank You! Speak for yourself. I too am a gamer. Have been since I was barely out of my baby stages, and I will likely die with a controller or mouse in my hand. However, I am also highly intelligent, a college student ("Dean's list" college student at that), I did awesome in Speech, Literature, and English in High School AND college, and I can debate and offer constructive criticism with0out being "crude" and "crass". Your post almost certainly implies that anyone who is a gamer cannot offer a counterpoint in an argument or any kind of criticism without coming off as unnecessarily rude. I exist as proof that that is clearly untrue. Good day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) Really. I'm curious why baseless praise is acceptable, but baseless criticism is not--beyond the very personal value judgement that positivity is more acceptable than negativity. If you don't understand why, then you don't understand civility in general. It's always acceptable to say something nice. It's always acceptable to fairly and constructively criticize. It is never acceptable to insult or demean. We teach this to young children because it makes society better for everyone. I'm not sure why this lesson even needs to be repeated here. Edited May 7, 2012 by Master-Nala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Not everyone in this forum has a PhD in English or is a master in literary debates. The art of providing constructive and totally subjective criticism takes years to develop. SWTOR forums is not like a debate on BBC. In elementary school they teach children that if they don't like something, to tell the person why, but not lash out. I don't like [feature], because [effect it has on persons enjoyment]. I would like to see the devs [what that person would do instead]. We are gamers here in this forum. Our feedback will be crude, direct and often crass. That's how we are and that's how we shall be. And yet, our feedback in this forum is more valuable to Bioware than the opinionated mediocre articles that TORWars prints. Thank You! Direct is fine and I'm sure Bioware would appreciate it. Crude and crass are not acceptable and it really shouldn't be need to said why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondragon Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 heheh. That was a pretty awesome piece actually. I think the only catch is that it really is like that on most "official" forums for mmo's. Doesn't change the fact that it's true and funny. XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazDoit Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 There is or could be a multitude of reasons. 1, its entertaining. 2, its entertaining. 3, its entertaining. 4, its entertaining. 5, its entertaining. 6, its entertaining. I'm sure there is more. Here is one for you - if you like the game so much, why aren't you in game playing? Fixed, butthurt players that are just moving on to the next game seek to drag with them as much people as possible, just to do the same thing with the new game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokkh Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 In elementary school they teach children that if they don't like something, to tell the person why, but not lash out. I don't like [feature], because [effect it has on persons enjoyment]. I would like to see the devs [what that person would do instead]. Direct is fine and I'm sure Bioware would appreciate it. Crude and crass are not acceptable and it really shouldn't be need to said why. QFT. Rule #9 of the forum guidelines has this topic covered: "Petition posts are frowned on. If you have an issue with the game, please discuss it in a civil and informed fashion." In no way are we, as a community, directed to unleash our ability to make crude or crass feedback. It's not ok. Ever. Frustration is understandable and almost a given with any online game. (Anyone who leveled up an agent with the Jadus bug knows what I'm talking about) But to vent that frustration in a juvenile fashion as if the game's developers did it on purpose is absurd. The devs have the most at stake in this game, how could someone honestly assume that they aren't doing everything they possibly could to correct issues as fast as they can? I'm just glad there isn't a cap on the # of people I can ignore here. Really decreases the amount of reading I have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedDjinn Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 If you don't understand why, then you don't understand civility in general. It's always acceptable to say something nice. It's always acceptable to fairly and constructively criticize. It is never acceptable to insult or demean. We teach this to young children because it makes society better for everyone. I'm not sure why this lesson even needs to be repeated here. That's not civility. It's called blowing smoke. Baseless comments are never a good thing. By definition they lack a foundation of truth. Positive of negative, they amount to different flavors of BS. Or to use an example... Praising child for doing homework. Good. Praising child when they ignore schoolwork and fail every subject on the report card? Baseless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Here is one for you - if you like the game so much, why aren't you in game playing? I'm at work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) I'm at work? You knew I meant it sarcastically. Good job addressing the other points. Edited May 7, 2012 by Frostvein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) That's not civility. It's called blowing smoke. Baseless comments are never a good thing. By definition they lack a foundation of truth. Positive of negative, they amount to different flavors of BS. Or to use an example... Praising child for doing homework. Good. Praising child when they ignore schoolwork and fail every subject on the report card? Baseless. The problem is, that's not what most people do here. People don't scold the child by saying "I know you can do better, and here are some things I want you working on.". Instead, they say "Wow son.. you're about the most retarded person who has ever lived and you're not worth the 30 seconds of pleasure I got conceiving you". See the difference? No one minds a well thought out post on why something in the game needs to change, or how something can be improved. Heck, I've left several ideas in the suggestion box and I've also filed multiple bug reports in game. Not once have I felt the need to bash, lash out, or over exaggerate my cause in order to get someone's attention. Then again, I still enjoy the game. If I didn't, I wouldn't be paying/playing/posting. Edited May 7, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediElf Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 The problem is, that's not what most people do here. People don't scold the child by saying "I know you can do better, and here are some things I want you working on.". Instead, they say "Wow son.. you're about the most retarded person who has ever lived and you're not worth the 30 seconds of pleasure I got conceiving you". See the difference? No one minds a well thought out post on why something in the game needs to change, or how something can be improved. Heck, I've left several ideas in the suggestion box and I've also filed multiple bug reports in game. Not once have I felt the need to bash, lash out, or over exaggerate my cause in order to get someone's attention. Then again, I still enjoy the game. If I didn't, I wouldn't be paying/playing/posting. +420 affection gain! Very well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavsynchroid Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I see alot more swtor fans that are upset with the direction of the game and rabid fanboys attacking anyone that doesnt praise bioware than just nasty attacks slaming the game. But to a rabid fanboy i guess anyone not saying this game is great and servers are full looks like someone attacking swtor. Really? All I see are people threatening to unsub if they don't get a specific feature added to the game. Maybe we're looking at different forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenjaminminU Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) Could not be more true. Minion Slayers his comics are awesome. thats http://www.theminionslayers.com people Edit: hehe post number 69 Edited May 7, 2012 by BenjaminminU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darlgon Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Could not be more true. Awesome post.. and interesting discussion that had to be modded apparently. Oh well.. Stuff like this is why i wish we had a rating system like in LoTRO. You see how many posts the genius or idiot has, when they joined the boards and a way to rate their posts as postive or "it helped me." Once that person who helped gets to be a certain level of postiveness, they can mark posts as being offensive or downright wrong, without saying who it was, but eventually forcing that bad poster down. They can only downgrade so many posts before they get downgraded back to needing more positive feedback, so they have incentive to keep from whacking other players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Discuss the game, not the forum posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evgen Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Can't we just agree that we're all gamers with different opinions on what we like in our gaming experience? The constant back and forth about "haters" and "fanboys" is nauseating, and does little to help the dearth of constructive discussion. While we do appreciate level headed constructive posts . . . wait a second, no we don't! More acid, vitriol, seething and hate! (Hey, aren't those the names of the Imperial side recovery powers?! ) If you are having trouble imagine everyone else has just gravely insulted your mother, forced themselves on your loved one and is Justin Bieber's biggest fan. That should get you off to a good start. And wherever possible, u don uz rite werdz, k? lol <- mandatory end of sentence marker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonfnord Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 We're always reading the forums Um, Yeah OK, but I guess you just choose to reply to asinine posts like this one instead of the numerous multi-page posts from disgruntled players who are waiting on real responses to important issues like pvp time-to-kill speed, overpriced legacy rewards, population imbalances, OP classes, appearance slots, non-existent crafting, painful end-gear grind, new races, crash-to-desktops, dead gtn and dead servers. OK check, thanks for reminding me why I unsubbed after 1.2 hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalkobot Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 We definitely want the forums to be a welcoming place for people to discuss the game, but we also understand that people do have lots of feedback that they want to share with us, and that some of that feedback is going to be negative. We do work to encourage constructive criticism (and often close threads that are not constructive), but we also don't want to close everything that says something negative. We're always reading the forums and gathering feedback to pass along. All constructive feedback and discussion does have a place here, and we hope that everyone in the community can respect others' opinions - even if they differ from your own. Our Community Representatives work hard to help keep the forums clean and to keep threads and posts within the rules, but it is very, very helpful if community members use the "flag" feature to report anything that breaks the rules. This brings it to our attention quickly so the Community Representatives can address it. If someone is breaking the rules, we encourage you to flag the post and move on, and we'll take care of it! Just flagging and not responding in kind helps keep flaming and other unconstructive posts off the forums. See you say that but all evidence points to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evgen Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Um, Yeah OK, but I guess you just choose to reply to asinine posts like this one instead of the numerous multi-page posts from disgruntled players who are waiting on real responses to important issues like pvp time-to-kill speed, overpriced legacy rewards, population imbalances, OP classes, appearance slots, non-existent crafting, painful end-gear grind, new races, crash-to-desktops, dead gtn and dead servers. OK check, thanks for reminding me why I unsubbed after 1.2 hit. Did you ever think that there is a reason why they don't post? I think it's quite possible that posts with no update on the matter are shown not to have any positive effect, and may in fact have a negative effect. if they popped in to say "We are aware of this issue, and are looking into it" for every thread you would say "it' just a generic response, and they aren't really looking into it!" right? Public relations is an art and a science. I think people need to manage their expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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