Darth Vader vs. Darth Malgus

[Wolfninjajedi]

So because they didn't show him kill anyone else in the temple, you just assume that from the movie there was just younglings he killed? Hmm....you see my sig down there first line? You know thats Cin Drallig, he was at the temple during Order 66 and he faced Vader(in the security recordings) and was killed by him. Cin was the battlemaster of the entire temple, a swordmaster who spent years and years honing his lightsaber skills. So yes, Anakin killed more then just younglings he killed the masters, and the like, its not like he just killed younglings and said to the clones

 

"Well my work is done, good luck guys" *Leaves*

 

No, he done that the 501st would have been wiped out by the remaining jedi who were still around. There was actually suppose to be more to the temple attack, but it was cut down to save time.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Rayla_Felana]

I watched the movie.

 

That's where I stopped, read the RotS novel and Rise of Darth Vader.

 

As a matter of fact, Darth Malgus in the Deceived novel along with a horde of Sith Warriors only faced the serious threat of Master Zen Vallow and several Jedi Knights, the rest were the more trained Jedi Padawans about to take the trials, the novel itself states this, the Temple was practically empty as far as serious competition goes.

[Rayla_Felana]

Simply put, Malgus has nothing Vader.

 

Malgus has SIth Lightning, congratulations that isn't going to do much at all.

 

He has great endurance, he's facing Darth Vader who is basically the epitome of the Sith Juggernaut style of Sith.

 

He is a great practitioner of Shien, Vader is the greatest practitioner of Shien ever.

 

He achieved oneness with the Dark Side, Vader was rage incarnate.

 

Vader has pretty much out-classed Malgus in every sense.

[ReiKai]

Movie is G-Canon. Guess I have to believe that more.

 

Also, can't say all the Sith wars on that ship were that tough, given that they could be taken out by a skilled trooper (Evidenced in the Alderaan trailer). Only Malgus, that other Lord (name escapes me atm), Malgus' gf and the Mandalorian chick were of any consequence. Also, in-game lore tells us there were other Master Jedi at the temple as well and one of them escaped it's destruction before the bombs. You kill him on Corellia. Either way, Malgus killed the big cheese there, then stood outside the Temple with his Troops and shielded them all from the blast wave when the Temple was detonated using a Force Shield. (oh imagine that? Details left out by other people!). Nvm Malgus killed the favorite of Darth Angral at the end of the Novel, just for ticking him off.

 

Anyway, think these guys did a good job of summarizing

.

[Rayla_Felana]

Movie is G-Canon. Guess I have to believe that more.

 

That argument would work if the evidence we provided contradicted anything in said G-canon, it doesn't, it merely expands upon it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Movie is G-Canon. Guess I have to believe that more.

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The movie novelizations, are also G-canon. Which novels, no matter what can always(and more often then not) provide more detail then a movie ever could. None of the evidence is being contradicted, by what me and Rayla were typing.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[thepilk]

The Chosen One, birthed from the force itself > Some scrub bioware made up.

[thepilk]

People keep confusing Vader's accomplishments for Sidious'. Vader didn't bring down the Jedi Order. Sid did with Order 66. Vader ended up as nothing more than a tool moved around by Sid. Malgus, however, had his own ideas and ambitions and he took them forward.

 

Also, Malgus is not a clone of Malak. Malgus' jaw isn't broken. He got burns from that pulse grenade and damage from Satele's HADOKEN!...I mean, force blast, forced him to use that respirator. However, as far anyone knows, the rest of Malgus' body is still Organic and he just wears armor for physical augmentation and defense. And people mentioned augmenting strength with the Force. Well, Malgus and just about anyone else can do that. Vader can't anymore, hence the cybernetics giving him strength on par with what he had via the Force before he got his limbs hacked off.

 

What did Vader really accomplish without Sid's direction? Almost nothing. Malgus, on the other hand, took control of resources, tricked the Empire, created his own power base and followers, and got people together to create greater technology behind the Empires's back and basically declared himself the new Emperor. The man was a beast and he did more on his own initiative than Vader ever did.

 

Vadar never did any of that because he never wanted to. In the RoTS novel, all Anakin ever wanted was to simply live out his years with padme away from both the Jedi AND the Republic. Everyone wanted a piece of his "chosen one" status for their own gain and he wanted none of that... the first time he decides to take action into his own hands, he gorilla press slams the emperor down a reactor shaft. before that, it was certainly withen his means to do all the things malgus tried to do (before 8 random characters kill him off in an operation) he simply was resigned to his role. So could he do those things vs wether or not he did do those things isnt really the same thing

[RJMazz]

Malgus is just an uninspired clone of Malak.

Same bald head, same broken jaw and wearing a face support. But at least Malak had much more character and depth than Malgus.

And Vader has been voted one of the top film and game villains of all time, so no, not even close.

 

In terms of in-game strength, Malgus is just a good duelist, and quite a smart Sith compared to his peers (knows how to utilize resources to the Empire's advantage instead of just "Me Evil, Me Smash!", and is always respectful of powerful allies) However, in terms of accomplishments he pales compared to what Vader did, who almost single-handedly brought the Jedi order to near extinction.

 

Bioware dropped the ball this time when designing a memorable villain. There is really nothing memorable about Malgus other than receiving a lot of face time in SWTOR trailers and advertisements.

 

It's a breathing mask, not a face support. His jaw is in place.

[TitusVorenus]

The Chosen One, birthed from the force itself > Some scrub bioware made up.

 

This--though, perhaps, not so bluntly.

 

For all of Malgus' obvious power, Darth Vader--or, Anakin Skywalker--is quite literally the Force incarnate. He was manifested by the Force, and represents the ultimate expression of the Force. Anakin Skywalker being "the Chosen One" isn't just some nifty title--it means exactly what it says.

 

That didn't make him perfect, of course; his arrogance was his downfall, as evidenced by his ludicrous attempt to take on Kenobi while he occupied a superior position on higher ground. Speaking of which... Kenobi was a much more experienced Jedi, noted within the Order as one of its best swordsmen, who taught Anakin everything he knew and therefore knew Anakin's capabilities better than anyone--and yet, for all of that, he was at best only able to counter his own apprentice, at least until the apprentice made a mistake dumbfoundingly stupid.

 

And yet--Anakin had his legs sliced off and was literally on fire, and survived.

 

Not even survived--thrived. Vader defeated all comers--including an admittedly-inexperienced Luke (who was, of course, the Son of the Chosen One, and all that that implied) on Bespin, removing his hand.... and when you look at the fight, Vader was never really seriously challenged. Luke--now far more capable, a warrior in his prime--does defeat Vader in Return of the Jedi, but frankly I've always found the end of that fight to be a bit strange--Vader seems to go from perfectly holding his own to, almost on a whim, virtually stop fighting and let Luke win; it seems to me that this is the indication that Vader can no longer emotionally stand to fight his own son--which, as we know, soon proves the case. Because then, Darth Vader, with remarkable smoothness, went from an extended duel with his own very strong son and having his hand cut off to literally picking up the extremely powerful Darth Sidious--a guy who could drop Jedi Masters practically with a flick of the wrist--while being hit with Force Lightning intended to kill, throwing Sidious down the shaft, and still managing to survive all the way to a distant hangar bay and having an extended, coherent conversation with his son. That's astonishing.

 

I'm not saying that Vader would steamroll Malgus; certainly I think it'd be a fascinating, and very close duel. But Vader would win--and in a way, he would have to. Because he was The Chosen One, prophesied to bring balance to the Force--and anyone familiar with mythology will readily recogize that, when you have a prophecy, no matter what anyone tries to do otherwise, the prophecy is always fulfilled.

Edited June 5, 2012 by TitusVorenus

[anairien]

actually, common sense dictates that any prophecies be irrelevant when positing a versus match like this.

 

 

for example: if i where to say "who would win between palpatine and the witch king of angmar", the fact that palpatine is manifestly the greater power (and we are talking by a huge margin here, according to evidenced abilities) would be entirely irrelevant, because angmar cannot be killed by a man according to prophecy. therefor the witch king would win.

 

get where i am coming from?

 

 

and as to vaders abilities, i would put it to you that the fact he does not do certain things, or express anywhere near the capability to do certain things, in the movies, means that lesser sources that say he can do them are contradicting the movies. G-canon vader post mustafar is not shown to be an exceptional duellist or anywhere near it; he defeats opponents who either let him win or are untrained, and he does so through brute force, not skill (though i admit that in ANH he at least maintained a guard and probed for opportunity against obi-wan). luke defeats him in ROTJ without any formal practical training in sword forms simply by getting angry, which is in point of fact counter-productive against a competent swordsman.

 

 

at the same time i would say that if the movies state vader is a superlative swordsman, that by star-wars standards he is, and would likely be an equal or better to malgus in terms of raw swordsmanship.

Edited June 5, 2012 by anairien

[FFsimold]

I would say they would kill each other after a battle lasting several hours.

[restlessone]

Has to be Vader, he was born from pure force like Jesus.

Even the Jedi Masters admitted Vader/Anakin had the highest mitichlorian count EVER.

 

Besides if Malgus was so good how come Satele Shan almost killed him in Alderaan?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Has to be Vader, he was born from pure force like Jesus.

Even the Jedi Masters admitted Vader/Anakin had the highest mitichlorian count EVER.

 

Besides if Malgus was so good how come Satele Shan almost killed him in Alderaan?

 

The trooper tackled him, and put a concussion grenade to his body. This more then likely gave enough time for Satele to get up, and force push him into the mountain.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Kelzack]

I would say Darth Vader...but Starkiller happened

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

Edited June 5, 2012 by Kelzack

[Invictos]

and as to vaders abilities, i would put it to you that the fact he does not do certain things, or express anywhere near the capability to do certain things, in the movies, means that lesser sources that say he can do them are contradicting the movies.

 

So you penalize any movie character just because he appeared in the movies, where (force) power levels are much less impressive across the board than they are in the EU. Seems kinda backwards to me; the more prominent figures are, by your logic, automatically less capable than just about any random Jedi dreamt up by a novelist or game developer.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I would say Darth Vader...but Starkiller happened

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

What does that have to do with anything? Galen barely won against Vader.

[anairien]

So you penalize any movie character just because he appeared in the movies, where (force) power levels are much less impressive across the board than they are in the EU. Seems kinda backwards to me; the more prominent figures are, by your logic, automatically less capable than just about any random Jedi dreamt up by a novelist or game developer.

 

 

no. i would penalise the EU characters by saying they are noncanon.

 

pretty obvious response really, considering the only completely incontrovertible canon is the movies.

 

ofcourse i actually already said this at the end of my post....

Edited June 5, 2012 by anairien

[Invictos]

no. i would penalise the EU characters by saying they are noncanon.

 

pretty obvious response really, considering the only completely incontrovertible canon is the movies.

 

ofcourse i actually already said this at the end of my post....

 

With all due respect, your intent was not at all clear from what you wrote, which I will quote in its entirety below. What you actually say at the end of your post is not a firm statement; it's a conditional: "If the movies state that Vader is a superlative swordsman," etc. And given that the conditional comes after a rather lengthy and seemingly anti-Vader argument, I can be forgiven for misunderstanding that what you meant to offer was, in fact, a disclaimer contradicting the bulk of what you'd already written.

 

My point was, and remains, simply that you can't selectively dismiss EU material. Personally, I have very little regard for the EU, but if we're discussing an EU character (Malgus) then even I can't handwave EU continuity.

 

actually, common sense dictates that any prophecies be irrelevant when positing a versus match like this.

 

for example: if i where to say "who would win between palpatine and the witch king of angmar", the fact that palpatine is manifestly the greater power (and we are talking by a huge margin here, according to evidenced abilities) would be entirely irrelevant, because angmar cannot be killed by a man according to prophecy. therefor the witch king would win.

 

get where i am coming from?

 

and as to vaders abilities, i would put it to you that the fact he does not do certain things, or express anywhere near the capability to do certain things, in the movies, means that lesser sources that say he can do them are contradicting the movies. G-canon vader post mustafar is not shown to be an exceptional duellist or anywhere near it; he defeats opponents who either let him win or are untrained, and he does so through brute force, not skill (though i admit that in ANH he at least maintained a guard and probed for opportunity against obi-wan). luke defeats him in ROTJ without any formal practical training in sword forms simply by getting angry, which is in point of fact counter-productive against a competent swordsman.

 

at the same time i would say that if the movies state vader is a superlative swordsman, that by star-wars standards he is, and would likely be an equal or better to malgus in terms of raw swordsmanship.

(Emphasis added)

[Rayla_Felana]

no. i would penalise the EU characters by saying they are noncanon.

 

pretty obvious response really, considering the only completely incontrovertible canon is the movies.

 

ofcourse i actually already said this at the end of my post....

 

You forgot the novelizations of those movies.

[BradyJohnston]

*sigh*

 

No matter who you are comparing in Star Wars, you can NEVER get an accurate source of who would win unless they both appeared in the movies (or same trilogy since the original's combat stunk). With tons of authors and game developers involved, they all have their own outcomes and depictions of a character's power, just like how luke fights like a little kid (okay he wasnt that bad) in the movies but is practically invincible in the EU. With Vader withstanding Palpatine's lightning to throw him to his death, I'd think he would be the tougher opponent since Palp's lightning is supposed to "burn a whole room to ash", but things like that are still just quoted from some other novel by another author. Just like the Vitiate vs Palp argument, they have tons of sources (mainly vader and Palp though) to refer to, but it doesnt really matter unless they both were by the same author. It's all opinions

[anairien]

You forgot the novelizations of those movies.

 

no i didnt. the movies are higher canon. even if they are within the same canon "bracket" (G canon) the movies are absolute canon. the books are not.

 

 

(Emphasis added)

 

my apologies, i didnt not mean that as a conditional; local language form creeping into my writing style i am afraid; as it is i am accepting as writ that anikin/vader is the strongest jedi simply because that is the implicit message of the movies (though i do not consider it particularly well expressed)

 

whether or not "x is stronger than y" is even a valid way to understand things is what i consider the more interesting question, because whilst the movies make it clear that simply force-sensitivity/power is not the sole determinator of victory in star wars, the fandom as a whole is very poor at understanding that.

Edited June 5, 2012 by anairien

[Velaran]

What does that have to do with anything? Galen barely won against Vader.

 

What were you watching? Galen outclassed Vader in practically every aspect of the battle, and won with enough strength left to go one-on-one with Palpatine.

 

Hell, even that abomination of a clone defeated Vader, even if he was holding back.

 

And yes, I know Galen used his agility to run circles around Vader. It doesn't change the fact that Vader lost.

[Wolfninjajedi]

What were you watching? Galen outclassed Vader in practically every aspect of the battle, and won with enough strength left to go one-on-one with Palpatine.

 

Hell, even that abomination of a clone defeated Vader, even if he was holding back.

 

And yes, I know Galen used his agility to run circles around Vader. It doesn't change the fact that Vader lost.

 

Novel/Cutscenes > Gameplay mechanics.

 

Gameplay mechanics, such as you described are not canon the novel is canon. In the novel, Galen barely won and he didn't fight the Emperor at all.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Velaran]

Novel/Cutscenes > Gameplay mechanics.

 

Gameplay mechanics, such as you described are not canon the novel is canon. In the novel, Galen barely won and he didn't fight the Emperor at all.

 

The games and the novelizations of the games are equally C-Canon, though game mechanics are almost never canon.

 

Effectively, you can take either as canon, and it doesn't really matter. Either way, Galen defeated Vader and held his own against Palpatine in a battle of the Force. (IE, the final cutscene.)