Premades are responsible for failed MMOs

[LillyWhiteS]

This is laughable. Many of us simply want to kick back & relax after a long days work. Many of us already have a variety of real life friends who we do real life things with. I shouldn't have to befriend every tom, dick, and virtual harry just to enjoy some pvp action. Many of us are burned out of working while we play a game. I want to swing a light saber at someone, not hold a voice op group meeting as to how to go about building Noah's Ark. Voice ops are a great tool but to require them in order to have fun seems a bit of overkill.

 

Your answer is just another cookie cutter response to an age old problem. The truth is that premades & pugs are two different play styles. There should be two different queuing styles so each can play against their own. We're just tired of you dipping your chocolate in our peanut butter all the time; capiche?

 

Yep agree,

 

Solo or premade play ain't the problem, it's mixing them that is.

 

PvE players don't want to be forced into PvPing and vice versa, the same thing applies to solo queue players and grouping, you can't force those that prefer to solo queue to group...

 

I guess something like the following would be ok :

 

Premades of 3+ players can only go up against other premades of 3+, but a group of two can be put in either solo or premades, to help fill teams.

[Pcolapat]

Yep agree,

 

Solo or premade play ain't the problem, it's mixing them that is.

 

PvE players don't want to be forced into PvPing and vice versa, the same thing applies to solo queue players and grouping, you can't force those that prefer to solo queue to group...

 

I guess something like the following would be ok :

 

Premades of 3+ players can only go up against other premades of 3+, but a group of two can be put in either solo or premades, to help fill teams.

 

Casual players pay the bills. It is fine to offer premades something, but you please the casuals first if you want your subscriptions to stay high.

[mechintel]

PvE players don't want to be forced into PvPing and vice versa, the same thing applies to solo queue players and grouping, you can't force those that prefer to solo queue to group...

 

Yet another thing that is wrong with modern MMOs. People who think PvP and PvE SHOULD be two distinct games. This is how things like Pokemon battles get into MMOs.

 

EDIT: Not that there is anything wrong with Pokemon battles. I like Bejeweled too though, let's make crafting a game of bejeweled if we no longer care about making the game we play cohesive.

Edited May 5, 2012 by mechintel

[DarthKhaos]

You don't need a guild, you don't need a bunch of friends, you just need to communicate.

 

/1 Anyone PvPing want to join up?

OR

/1 Looking to join in some PvP action sent invite.

 

Hell if you PvP you'll tend to recall the good players even if they are not your friends. Join em, find out their Vent/TeamSpeak/Mumble/Whatever info and listen in, You don't even need a mic.

 

You had a long day at work you want to relax and if it is more relaxing to queue solo and lose (as you say) then what's the problem. If it is not then group up with people and go. Most of the time I don't PvP with my guild. I whispered a couple of the regular PvPers got in with them and BOOM.

 

Then it's the belief that Premades rule all. I've been in games where (here's the kicker) people know what they're doing. I've played Huttball matches where you never saw someone spam PASS in ops chat why? Because the players were passing you didn't have to tel them. In voidstar people were calling atks on left or right door and the team would respond and not leave the other door undefended. Same with Civil War and Nova Coast.

 

I think people just like fabricate reasons to claim everything sucks and blame something for the fact that they can't get it all their own way. Know what? I don't care you want to go go don't cry to me.

[angryca]

The funny thing about this is that bioware said they were going to try and avoid this problem. They didn't want players getting rolled by premades all the time.

 

Bioware said all the right things before launch. They talked about an intelligent match making system that evaluated gear and grouping and overall pvp experience. What we actually got was the 10-15 people in fleet queing against each other most of the time.

 

The were aware of all the problems but have not solved any of them. Matchmaking does not work without a large population. Not having cross server ques is just foolish.

[mechintel]

Not having cross server ques is just foolish.

 

Cross server queues does not solve having 10-15 people in your fleet. You want server merges. Get it right!

Edited May 5, 2012 by mechintel

[Raansu]

I totally see your point. I just don't agree with it. MMOs should not be soloable. Every aspect of the game should not only promote teamwork, but require it. I don't expect MMOs to change, I just wish they would.

 

Not everyone is on 24 hours a day pvping non stop. People queue solo sometimes get over it. If I want to pvp and my team is not online then I simply queue solo. When I do, I'd rather not be queued against a premade just like when I queue with my team I'd rather be queued against a premade instead of going against another team of pugs and facestomping them. So either you are bad and don't want your easy wins taken away or you just have a bunch of friends with no social life.

[mechintel]

Not everyone is on 24 hours a day pvping non stop. People queue solo sometimes get over it. If I want to pvp and my team is not online then I simply queue solo. When I do, I'd rather not be queued against a premade just like when I queue with my team I'd rather be queued against a premade instead of going against another team of pugs and facestomping them. So either you are bad and don't want your easy wins taken away or you just have a bunch of friends with no social life.

 

Opps... I tried to make sense of your argument, but then I realized it was devoid of logic.

 

1) If I am advocating that we remove the ability to solo queue entirely, how would that help get me easy wins?

2) How can I have both "a bunch of friends" and "no social life". I don't think you understand what it means to have a social life.

3) If you want me to "get over" the fact that people can solo queue. I ask that you "get over" premades stomping your solo queuing butt into the ground.

4) I'd like to point out that it takes literally 5 seconds to ask in general chat if anyone would like to pvp with you. If your schedule is so busy that you cannot afford those 5 seconds, perhaps you really don't have time to be playing the game in the first place.

Edited May 5, 2012 by mechintel

[Raansu]

Opps... I tried to make sense of your argument, but then I realized it was devoid of logic.

 

1) If I am advocating that we remove the ability to solo queue entirely, how would that help get me easy wins?

2) How can I have both "a bunch of friends" and "no social life". I don't think you understand what it means to have a social life.

3) If you want me to "get over" the fact that people can solo queue. I ask that you "get over" premades stomping your solo queuing butt into the ground.

4) I'd like to point out that it takes literally 5 seconds to ask in general chat if anyone would like to pvp with you. If your schedule is so busy that you cannot afford those 5 seconds, perhaps you really don't have time to be playing the game in the first place.

 

1) Removing solo queue means you'd never play pvp ever again as 90% of the player base solo's (thus why we need cross server when ranked comes out). This is a fact, whether you like it or not. Just because you like to face stomp pugs doesn't mean pugs should have to deal with it. Queues should be separated, period.

 

2) i.e. you have a bunch of friends that do nothing but play video games all night long instead of having an actual social life. People have lives, my premade isn't online 24/7 thus I solo queue when they are not online. Why would I want to team up with a bunch of morons on the fleet? The same morons that queue solo and act like ******* anyways? Sorry, but if I queue solo to kill some time I don't want to be queued against a premade, end of story.

 

3) Case in point, you like easy wins and are scared of premades. I look forward to cross server queues/ranked matches so I can stomp your face in the ground. Of course by then I'm sure you and your friends will conveniently quit swtor and go find the next pvp game you can troll solo players in.

 

4) I'd like to point out that asking people on the fleet is still a pug. Or are you so new to mmo's that you don't know what pug actually means?

[mechintel]

I'm going to ignore everything just said because it has become apparent to me after the first few sentences that you lack reading comprehension.

 

Good day, sir.

[Lt_Latency]

No there not.

 

You can't make it so you can't play with your friends. The problem is when a whole premade has warhero and your pug has crap gear. There is nothing wrong with lossing the problem is when you can't even scratch them.

 

They need to take reduce the difference in the gear gap but it's still not that bad. Get a medal lose quick and move on to the next match.

 

They also need more paths to pvp gear. So you can gear up without having to get farmed by players in insane gear.

 

 

The problem right now is once you hit 50 the grind to warhero is a nightmare

Edited May 5, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[LosMartonos]

It's only YOUR fault, I mean, if you play a MULTIPLAYER game as single player than you're the problem.

[otherworlder]

Premades roll in premades not because they "enjoy playing with their friends" but because they enjoy matches they know they can't possibly lose.

 

Beating up a team of pugs with no effort, yeah that's fun.

 

The better PvP guilds I've ever seen will actually start queueing solo or in groups of 2 if the competition is mostly PuGs because it's the only way to actually get a sporting, fun match.

Edited May 5, 2012 by otherworlder

[mechintel]

They also need more paths to pvp gear. So you can gear up without having to get farmed by players in insane gear.

 

It takes maybe a week of pvping to get full battlemaster, even at a casual pace. From there the jump to War Hero isn't overly significant. The jump from Recruit/Champion to Battlemaster is gigantic though after 1.2.

[DarthKhaos]

Premades roll in premades not because they "enjoy playing with their friends" but because they enjoy matches they know they can't possibly lose.

 

Beating up a team of pugs with no effort, yeah that's fun.

 

The better PvP guilds I've ever seen will actually start queueing solo or in groups of 2 if the competition is mostly PuGs because it's the only way to actually get a sporting, fun match.

Some do some don't. I for one party up with my friends. If they aren't on I go solo. Some of these friends are in my guild some are not. Simple as that. We talk more smack over vent & TS than strat because we already know what we should be doing. Hell some of the people I play with English isn't their primary language and 1/2 the time I got no idea what they're saying.

 

I'll explain this slowly for you.

There's different progression rates for acquiring PvP & PvE gear because players want it. The rate to progress from Recruit to BM is fast so that players can be competitive. If you have the same gear for both PvP & PvE then you will have to match the progression rate. If you don't PvErs will be forced by other players to PvP to get the first progression done faster. If you do then you will either have to shorten the PvE progression which will piss PvErs off when they're on their next progression OR increase the PvP progression which will piss off the PvPers because they spend more time not being competitive against those who's been PvPing for a longer period of time.

 

Wrap this concept around your head people. I for one do not want a system that forces PvErs to PvP in order to PvE or vice versa.

[Lt_Latency]

It takes maybe a week of pvping to get full battlemaster, even at a casual pace. From there the jump to War Hero isn't overly significant. The jump from Recruit/Champion to Battlemaster is gigantic though after 1.2.

 

Yes it is. People quit WZ right away when they have Warhero and see only BM all the time. Because they know the team is going to get slaughtered if the other team has WH and can spend tokens on the 2 pvp potions every 3 mins

[mechintel]

Yes it is. People quit WZ right away when they have Warhero and see only BM all the time. Because they know the team is going to get slaughtered if the other team has WH and can spend tokens on the 2 pvp potions every 3 mins

 

Are you trying to argue that the boost in stats from BM to War Hero is even remotely close to the boost in stats from Recruit to BM?

 

I didn't say that having War Hero wasn't an advantage, I just said having full BM is plenty enough gear to compete in Warzones.

[olagaton]

There should not be an advantage gained from choosing to queue with a premade group vs solo queue. Currently, there is a huge advantage.

 

Premade groups should definitely get a debuff to balance the playing field somewhat. The solo queue is available so everyone has a chance to PvP. The Pre-made option is there if you wish to play with friends. Nobody is forcing the Premades to take on the debuff, but if they truly want to play with friends, they would have that option (with the debuff for balance). Solo queuers don't always have the option to play with the same people all the time, and not all of them have access to voice chat servers either.

 

Nowhere in the definition of MMO's does it say that groups should be overpowered compared to solo play. MMO simply means that there are other people within the same environment as you that you can interact with. It does not mean you must interact with them, or be forced to interact with them to remain competitive. That mentality is what eventually kills MMO's for most people.

Edited May 5, 2012 by olagaton

[Lt_Latency]

Are you trying to argue that the boost in stats from BM to War Hero is even remotely close to the boost in stats from Recruit to BM?

 

I didn't say that having War Hero wasn't an advantage, I just said having full BM is plenty enough gear to compete in Warzones.

 

Yes it's huge. I have battle master. When I fight someone in battle master and then fight the same class in War hero. It's not even close to the same outcome.

 

If the difference is amongst the WHOLE team. Forget about it. You have to be WAY better then the other team to win. 3 of the 4 warzones the only thing that mattes is time to kill where gear is the number one factor. Can you kill the enemy before they respawn. Even if you outplay and kill off the warheros odds are they have respawned to stop you from capping.

 

In huitballl at least you can avoid the gear and try to go around. But in the other 3 you have to punch right threw it and if you can't do it fast enough it's pointless You do less damage and take more and have less hp. The do more damage take less damage and have more hp

Edited May 5, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[DarthKhaos]

Yes it's huge. I have battle master. When I fight someone in battle master and then fight the same class in War hero. It's not even close to the same outcome.

 

If the difference is amongst the WHOLE team. Forget about it. You have to be WAY better then the other team to win. 3 of the 4 warzones the only thing that mattes is time to kill where gear is the number one factor. Can you kill the enemy before they respawn. Even if you outplay and kill off the warheros odds are they have respawned to stop you from capping.

 

In huitballl at least you can avoid the gear and try to go around. But in the other 3 you have to punch right threw it and if you can't do it fast enough it's pointless You do less damage and take more and have less hp. The do more damage take less damage and have more hp

Do you know if they have warhero or warhero plus?

What do I mean by Warhero plus? Warhero with augments on every piece that can be crafted. There's a HUGE difference.

Edited May 5, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Lt_Latency]

Do you know if they have warhero or warhero plus?

What do I mean by Warhero plus? Warhero with augments on every piece that can be crafted. There's a HUGE difference.

 

I'm just talking about gear in general. You need to grind really really hard to get the best and if you only have a early set your in for a rough ride up against the best.

[Givemedanger]

IMHO premades should have a different queue. 4 organised (and geared ofc) players can win almost every game esp when using vent. Edited May 5, 2012 by Givemedanger

[DarthKhaos]

I'm just talking about gear in general. You need to grind really really hard to get the best and if you only have a early set your in for a rough ride up against the best.

That's true but Battle Master .vs. War Hero isn't as big a gap. It's the War Hero Plus that's a bit more of a challenge. Battle Master isn't all that hard to get.

 

Now as for premades it's as optional as queueing solo. I've won my fare share of matches queueing solo. The problem isn't communication it's people refusing to follow anyone who decides to take up a leadership role. They believe that person doesn't know what they're doing and causes the loss. When you have 8 people in a match and 3 decides to do their own thing you crippled the team. This has nothing to do with premades except the fact that premades go with the leader's plan.

 

Also you can't currently have a full premade. You got 4 people queueing together and 4 pugs. The difference is players know who the regulars are and if you get in a match with Ana***yn Skyhopper and his crew you listen to whatever they have planned.

[Haeso]

Casual players pay the bills. It is fine to offer premades something, but you please the casuals first if you want your subscriptions to stay high.

 

And this watering down to the lowest common denominator is why we get gigantic budget failures like SWTOR that try and make a game that's 'good enough' to retain subs from multiple demographics instead of an excellent, targeted game that provides a great experience to any who wish to partake.

 

This type of thinking is what ruins these games. Go play your simpleton angry birds or a grindfest rpg if all you want to do is roll your face over your keyboard and feel like you've accomplished something without having to put in any effort.

 

I remember when games were made to be fun and engaging rather than monotonous and addicting, and it's this cash grab for 'casual' players and trying to hit every demographic that causes it. Trying to make an MMO that does everything leads to an MMO that does everything spectacularly... badly.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Haeso

[olagaton]

And this watering down to the lowest common denominator is why we get gigantic budget failures like SWTOR that try and make a game that's 'good enough' to retain subs from multiple demographics instead of an excellent, targeted game that provides a great experience to any who wish to partake.

 

This type of thinking is what ruins these games. Go play your simpleton angry birds or a grindfest rpg if all you want to do is roll your face over your keyboard and feel like you've accomplished something without having to put in any effort.

 

I remember when games were made to be fun and engaging rather than monotonous and addicting, and it's this cash grab for 'casual' players and trying to hit every demographic that causes it. Trying to make an MMO that does everything leads to an MMO that does everything spectacularly... badly.

Wow your response was completely off the topic.

 

When people talk about making solo play more viable, you shouldn't automatically assume that the content should (or is) easier. I see nothing wrong with creating content/progression that allows a solo player to not only participate, but also challenge themselves. Likewise, I see no reason why that same scenario can be made for players who want to participate with friends or guildmates on a small (group) or large (raid) scale, with a challenge.

 

People play these games to enjoy them, to have something to do; but to also be able to progress to the top of the game, whether it's done solo, group, or raid-style. When there is nothing to do because the only content available relies heavily on others that aren't reliable, the game becomes stale, and that's what ruins the game.