exphryl Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) I'm comparing damage because that is what I'm specifically referencing as OP. Yes all classes have their own methods of survivability, and whenever those reach a threshold that doesn't seem fair to most players then those specific abilities are referenced (Marauder: Undying Rage). I'm not comparing CC to CC in this reply, I'm comparing damage to damage, apples to apples. PvP isn't about Apples to Apples though which is where I see so many threads on this forum falter. It's hard to say X class has this so I need it too! While ignoring Y ability you have that the other class does not. For example, people like to constantly whine about Tankasins. Yeah, they are tough and have a lot of survivability. Their damage is overall mediocre though and win through attrition in a 1v1 setting. People see that and say "I need that to!". Hell, I'd love to have force shroud and self healing on my powertech. But I'm pretty sure the server would crash the second I zone in due to the imbalance it would cause. Edited May 1, 2012 by exphryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Man, he didnt die even once.... Plus he had no issue with heat so of course he will do lot of dmg. Don't mistake the point. Neither team was dying that much. It was a well played match on both sides. Also, one of my issues that I'm calling out IS the heat management, so I'm glad you noticed that. Finally, both sides were healing very well but survivability isn't the issue i'm bringing up here. It's the issue of damage and how hard/frequently he is hitting as well as how he well he is managing heat in the process while dealing tons of damage to multiple targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Don't mistake the point. Neither team was dying that much. It was a well played match on both sides. Also, one of my issues that I'm calling out IS the heat management, so I'm glad you noticed that. Finally, both sides were healing very well but survivability isn't the issue i'm bringing up here. It's the issue of damage and how hard/frequently he is hitting as well as how he well he is managing heat in the process while dealing tons of damage to multiple targets. You seem to be overlooking the aspect of this is a Pre 1.2 Video and Heat Management of that magnitude is NOT possible anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaulSerpine Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) My biggest complaint about pyrotech dps is that almost everything is instant cast including their biggest hits, even their big hitting abilities appear to be on relatively short cooldowns, and they are apparently extremely heat efficient. Their Railshot hits as hard as a Snipers Ambush except Railshot is instant and Ambush is 3 second cast. With a wh weapon and 530 power and 1450 aim. (no class buff) RS = 1811 (6s-15s) TD = 2150 (15s) Yeah that s op ! you use ambush with 3s of cast ? you didnt know you can reduce your cast, and ambush is 2.5 cast ? Every single time i use ambush (1.5 s cast), it is because i criticed before. With my sniper, my ambush does 2550-2750 dmg and i dont have any BM stuff (centurion weapon....). With my assault vangard, it is 1811 and i am fully geared with 3 wh pieces. Edited May 1, 2012 by SaulSerpine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaulSerpine Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Don't mistake the point. Neither team was dying that much. It was a well played match on both sides. Also, one of my issues that I'm calling out IS the heat management, so I'm glad you noticed that. Finally, both sides were healing very well but survivability isn't the issue i'm bringing up here. It's the issue of damage and how hard/frequently he is hitting as well as how he well he is managing heat in the process while dealing tons of damage to multiple targets. Did you get some energy issue ? Sorry for my english. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheronFett Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Cool, another ZOMG I got pwned by a 99,999k critical and was insta-killed thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 PvP isn't about Apples to Apples though which is where I see so many threads on this forum falter. It's hard to say X class has this so I need it too! While ignoring Y ability you have that the other class does not. For example, people like to constantly whine about Tankasins. Yeah, they are tough and have a lot of survivability. Their damage is overall mediocre though and win through attrition in a 1v1 setting. People see that and say "I need that to!". Hell, I'd love to have force shroud and self healing on my powertech. But I'm pretty sure the server would crash the second I zone in due to the imbalance it would cause. Yes, it is hard to theorycraft and compare classes with entirely different ability sets, combinations, and rotations at their disposal to one another, and maybe that's why many of these threads falter in your opinion. There is very little definitive proof anywhere that would honestly justify the reason for ANY nerf. Arguments and opinions could go back and forth for days and nothing would ever be resolved. So what actually starts the debate of an OP thread is an opinion of how a player feels while playing the game. My opinion based on my experience playing the game, in which the root of my argument stems from, is that Pyrotech DPS is too high in the current state of the game. There aren't many of them so it isn't as obvious as the Sentinel/Maarader OPness that everyone called before the patch had even released, but it's out there and has been there for sometime gone unnoticed until recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalcoLombardi Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Me thinks he went up against Samus Aran and she dropped a Power Bomb, which is a massive heat explosion and can vaporize normal humans instantly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobings Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Don't mistake the point. Neither team was dying that much. It was a well played match on both sides. Also, one of my issues that I'm calling out IS the heat management, so I'm glad you noticed that. Finally, both sides were healing very well but survivability isn't the issue i'm bringing up here. It's the issue of damage and how hard/frequently he is hitting as well as how he well he is managing heat in the process while dealing tons of damage to multiple targets. You keep mentioning his heat management, but as we keep pointing out this is Pre 1.2 when our sustainability took a large hit in the way of the nerf to PPA. The reason he's so heat effecient is because he's getting procs that give him free Railshots. Since free railshots refund 8 heat after use, every time that procs he effectively vents 8 heat. Pre 1.2, there was no cooldown on the procs, so he gets chain procs that effectively vent heat for him. Post 1.2, there is a 6 second internal CD on PPA, which means we are not nearly as heat effecient anymore, without throttling our own damage to keep our heat at around 40%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 With a wh weapon and 530 power and 1450 aim. (no class buff) RS = 1811 (6s-15s) TD = 2150 (15s) Yeah that s op ! you use ambush with 3s of cast ? you didnt know you can reduce your cast, and ambush is 2.5 cast ? Every single time i use ambush (1.5 s cast), it is because i criticed before. With my sniper, my ambush does 2550-2750 dmg and i dont have any BM stuff (centurion weapon....). With my assault vangard, it is 1811 and i am fully geared with 3 wh pieces. Did you know that not EVERY Ambush is 1.5 second cast? That's ONLY if you crit with Charged Burst first. So no, not "every single" Ambush you cast is 1.5 seconds. That is false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaulSerpine Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) Did you know that not EVERY Ambush is 1.5 second cast? That's ONLY if you crit with Charged Burst first. So no, not "every single" Ambush you cast is 1.5 seconds. That is false. Ok but my gameplay is different, and before i ambush, i try to get a crit with series of shot or charged shot and most of the time, i have my 1.5 s cast. Edited May 1, 2012 by SaulSerpine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarfunkz Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 no its pyrotechs the put a fire dot on you then use rail shot which ignores 90% of the targets armor and when this crits it crits hard. im a commando with 1201 expertise 5k armor and 19k hp and this is nearly 1 shotting me at times depending how geared the pyrotech is that used it on me. the ability that will finish you off is the grenade they throw on you before had they can kill you in lituraly the time it takes to cast 4 abilitys which is about 4 seconds. the flame dot will take about 1k or 6k from you the railsht will take about 2k to 10k from you rocket punch 1k to 5k grenade 2k to 8k powertechs are insanely overpowerd right now and need a nerf badly they are worse than mauruaders, at least i can kite marauders a bit you cant with powertechs specialy how they can pull you to them. *Railshot is 3.5-6k on a crit, 6k is severely undergeared light armor players. *Most I have seen the grenade is 5001, So, I will say 2.5-5k on a crit *Plasma cell is 1214 elemental damage over 6 seconds *incendiary round is 471-536 initial and 1419 over 18 seconds *I have seen 4k crits from stockstrike, but the majority of the time it will hit for 2-4k *ion pulse is 946-1010 elemental damage and if spec'd will activate plasma cell dot Now, what you haven't mentioned is that bh/trooper have the WORST action management of ANY class There is no guarantee that HIB/Rail actually goes through 90% armor, who ever said the 60% and the 30% stacked.... I personally do not think they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Eternal- Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I got killed by someone....please nerf them! *hands a tissue* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Ok but my gameplay is different, and before i ambush, i try to get a crit with series of shot or charged shot and most of the time, i have my 1.5 s cast. I'm sorry: What is your argument? You're comparing an ability that normally has the cast time of 2.5 seconds, and can randomly/situationally be decreased to 1.5 seconds upon a crit of Charged burst (another 1.5 second cast ability) and has to be used while in cover (stationary) to an ability that is instant cast, can be done on the run, and does the same damage. You're saying they are equal? What is your argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duanesmi Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Dime whats your character name in game? Just want to slap you ingame is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwrtheyn Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Did some of you noticed the damage pyrotech can put on a single target or multiple targets only with that insane combustible gas? It put down a 16k HP player in less then 5 seconds only by that. They spin around and you get 30% HP short after. Is insane! more like 9+sec and only with crit luck,relics and adrenal(gcd 1.5sec less than 5sec would be 3gcd,termal det not possible since dmg after 5sec,so how should a pyro do 16k dmg in under 5sec?) dispell the fire effects -> pyro does low dmg(will overheat fast if he trys to get em up again) leath snipers are by far worse,since the dispell does not work so well since patch,you will get the trippel shot/sec channel anyway(cull) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Dimes < Dark Reaper Feel free to try all you like, but I gotta warn you I'm pretty geared so unless you geared and can play like Vanni I suggest not trying such a thing on a PvP server . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobings Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry: What is your argument? You're comparing an ability that normally has the cast time of 2.5 seconds, and can randomly/situationally be decreased to 1.5 seconds upon a crit of Charged burst (another 1.5 second cast ability) and has to be used while in cover (stationary) to an ability that is instant cast, can be done on the run, and does the same damage. You're saying they are equal? What is your argument? Apples and oranges. I would love to have the CC of a sniper or OP, or the survivability of a maurader, but it aint in the cards. I'm not sure how the comparison got started but it's kind of silly. To be totally honest, I was surprised they nerfed PPA procs, and not the upper teir rail shot talents for pyrotech when they did nerf PTs. The damage doesn't feel excessive, especially when you look at the big picture in what the class actually has. If you pick up those damage talents you give up mobility, survivability, and utility. Damage is pretty much all a 31 Pyrotech has to offer. Is the damage excessive? I dunno, maybe, but it sure doesn't feel that way with as squishy and immobile we are. *edit* to fix my spelling. Edited May 2, 2012 by Sireene 2nd use of retarded - PM'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaulSerpine Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I'm sorry: What is your argument? You're comparing an ability that normally has the cast time of 2.5 seconds, and can randomly/situationally be decreased to 1.5 seconds upon a crit of Charged burst (another 1.5 second cast ability) and has to be used while in cover (stationary) to an ability that is instant cast, can be done on the run, and does the same damage. You're saying they are equal? What is your argument? What ???? Ambush has a 15s cd, dont tell me you dont crit even once with series of shot or charged shot before you can ambush again. If you dont like the cover system, you are playing the wrong class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 What ???? Ambush has a 15s cd, dont tell me you dont crit even once with series of shot or charged shot before you can ambush again. If you dont like the cover system, you are playing the wrong class. Lol i'm not complaining about the cover system. I'm saying the two abilities are NOTHING alike other than the damage they deal. You're trying to justify Aimed Shot and say that it is comparable to Railshot and I'm telling you they are not even close to the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaulSerpine Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Lol i'm not complaining about the cover system. I'm saying the two abilities are NOTHING alike other than the damage they deal. You're trying to justify Aimed Shot and say that it is comparable to Railshot and I'm telling you they are not even close to the same. Yes they are different.... You were saying RS hits as hard as ambush with 3s cast. I am telling you : ambush (2.5 cast) hits harder than RS (30%-40% more) and the cast can be reduced by 1s if played properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Yes they are different.... You were saying RS hits as hard as ambush with 3s cast. I am telling you : ambush (2.5 cast) hits harder than RS (30%-40% more) and the cast can be reduced by 1s if played properly. Where are you getting your amounts and your math from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaulSerpine Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Where are you getting your amounts and your math from? from my vanguard and my sniper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvarine Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 no they cant. even a good pyros strongest attack will barely top 5k on undergeared aka 0 expertise players in light armor who are unshielded...and thats a RARE occurance. At best over 3 globals you might see 10-12k dmg and thats only after PPA procs while dot stacking which adds 3 more globals... if you dont do anything over that 9 seconds, you might die.. otherwise , youll probably live. Your pyro's must be meh at best then on your server cause we have more then a few on ours that almost every match have 5-6k crits consistantly. Pyros definately have more burst then any other class imo and anyone that thinks they have 0 survivability, lol. They get the same shields if I'm not mistaken that a merc dps gets minus the knock-back which outside of hutt-ball doesn't mean much with such short cd's on classes leap abilities and ranged well, they'll just ranged you to death. Outside of op healers which a good one you need mutliple dps as a merc to drop, pyros and the odd maurader are the only two classes that present issues in 1v1. Good pyro dps I'll just run away even if they are at 1/2 health as I'll never beat their burst if their two shields are up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatFrosty Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Pyro does more damange than a gunslinger without the gimp of activation timers or cover, It is overpowered incarnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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