Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[Exsqeeze]

It has probably already been mentioned, but the best solution would be to have No Expertise on PvP Gear, have Expertise on PvE gear instead (gives +bonus to Monster damage).

This removes the modification hunting PvPers currently have to endure as they can focus on getting primary stats rather than fretting over Expertise balance.

It still allows the PvE people who want the best operational gear a grind to get that gear. I mean that is essentially the difference between Tionese and Campaign gear = better damage/healing/defense IE can be replaced by a PvE Expertise stat.

 

This also stops people with PvE gear from doing PvP effectively as they will be a stat indifference (IE you still have the split choice between total PvP and total PvE)

[DarkHelsing]

It dawned on me... there's been a lot of mention about hardcore raiders this and hardcore pvpers that...

 

I thought all the hardcore raiders and pvpers already left this game because nothing about this game is hardcore, so what's the point in using them as an argument?

 

Just curious.

Edited April 28, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarkHelsing]

It has probably already been mentioned, but the best solution would be to have No Expertise on PvP Gear, have Expertise on PvE gear instead (gives +bonus to Monster damage).

This removes the modification hunting PvPers currently have to endure as they can focus on getting primary stats rather than fretting over Expertise balance.

It still allows the PvE people who want the best operational gear a grind to get that gear. I mean that is essentially the difference between Tionese and Campaign gear = better damage/healing/defense IE can be replaced by a PvE Expertise stat.

 

This also stops people with PvE gear from doing PvP effectively as they will be a stat indifference (IE you still have the split choice between total PvP and total PvE)

 

That begs to ask why not one step further and put Expertise on everything. Then Bioware can adjust how it reacts to mobs during raids, and players during pvp, and gear progression can be more linear and swappable, players will then have the freedom of choice to mix and match mods and such...

[Mutant_]

No for expertise.

[choppefett]

NOT NEEDED,

 

Just allow pvpers to earn top level pve gear. A gating system will need to be implemented so those only only pvp or pve don't feel forced to do both to keep up with those who do.

The current token system would work if you just allowed a certain number of tokens to be purchased per week. Now "hardcore" pvpers complain because they want to earn all their gear by playing 24/7 over 3 days. Too bad for them. Hardcore pvers are gated by instance lockouts so everyone is now equal, and anyone can play any part of the game as they please.

 

In addition, the pvp debuff (trauma?) is sufficient for "balancing" the game between pvp and pve. It currently nerfs healing by 30%. This can be tweaked as needed, as gear progresses etc. Add a damage or damage reduction factor to it and you have universal expertise, problem solved.

[Blaise]

You do know this thread is completely pointless? They will NEVER remove expertise from pvp.

 

But regardless....... I would say get rid of it, its not needed.

 

PvP should be based on skill, not how much free time I have to camp in my moms basement for weeks on end grinding.

 

But as I said, this wont ever change. And thats why I will forever hold a very low opinion on ToR PvP.

[Easpeak]

Nay - make it so that all armor is craftable, better bits need PvE loot to make (HM flashpoints or even story mode operations). Make it so that I or my guild can gear people up, that way I can enjoy more characters/classes instead of spending all my available time PvP grinding one toon, because PvE doesn't give me anything and I don't have enough time to gear up 2-3 toons with all the lates PvP gadgets without which you are gimped in PVP. So I'm stuck having one well geared character or a few badly geared characters.

 

This makes bigger guilds/socializing needed and organized guild can actually get their people geared and so provide a service.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Easpeak

[Skolops]

This is probably the most common argument I've seen here. I am always boggled when I see it too. I'm not insulting you or anything, don't take that statement in that regard. What I mean is even those against Expertise still want progression for PvP and still want progression for PvE. Just have less of a Gear Gap between the two events, a more Linear path.

 

Example;

PvE'ers get gear by doing PvE. PvP'ers get gear by doing PvP. Different looks, different set bonuses, different ways to customize, these are all things that make having more choices fun... but never anything to force players into one venue or the other, never removing the ability to allow the player base to choose freely how they want to get gear. And there is no reason PvPers shouldn't be able to take a break from PvP and raid, and Raiders shouldn't be able to take a break from Raiding and PvP. The fact that I die during a raid because I didn't know where to stand, or the fact that they die during PvP because they didn't know... those are the things that should separate players... how well they actually play.

 

 

Even prior to patch 1.2 it was more Linear and still had Expertise. Prior to patch 1.2 my Raiding gear was all mix matched with modifications. My BM set was the same. My Helm, and Gloves were totally stripped and replaced with the items from my Champion set. My Chest, Legs, and boots had their enchantments stripped and all replaced with various other ones, I even had an item level 42 mod in my BM boots. Because of this ability to mix and match, I created a gear set that fit my play style perfectly. I cannot do that now. If I remove a Mod from a Raiding set and put it into my PvP set, I'll lose all the Expertise from that Mod and gimp my toon. My freedom of choices was removed and forced into a venue no matter if I liked it or not.

 

I highlighted what I think is the key statement in your post. The thing is, as regards to this, that there currently is no reason people can't do this. The disagreement here is that I and pro-expertise folks would say that when a PvPer or PvEer swaps over, he should be on a separate gear progression while those unhappy with expertise don't think he should be - or at least not to nearly the same degree.

 

Back in the 80s and 90s, Mchael Jordan progressed through the tiers of basketball. He later wanted to try his hand at baseball. The thing is, when he started playing baseball they didn't just give him the same salary, the same major league roster spot, or the same public recognition that he had in basketball. He was starting out on something new - still a sport, yes, but a different sport with a different progression to work on.

 

When I as a PvPer want to go ahead and raid, having never done it even once before, I should start out at precisely the same point - or as close to it as possible - as a fresh 50. When someone who has beat Karraga's Palace on Nightmare mode wants to jump into his very first warzone, he should have to start out at the same point a fresh 50 does.

 

This is why gear that is viable in PvP can only be obtained through PvP, and why gear that is viable in end-game PvE can only be obtained by doing it. It provides two separate progressions. I understand you're saying that you only really want something closer together - a bit of a compromise perhaps - but putting them closer together to any meaningful degree would mean that as a very well geared PvPer, I don't have to start out at the very beginning of the PvE ladder, or vice versa.

 

Part of the disagreement, I think, is related to an underestimation of just how badly even top tier PvP gear is compared to the high end PvE stuff. There is a perception that PvEers somehow lag impossibly behind PvPers in gear for PvP, but the same is not true the other way around. I must say that it is. I have been doing a lot of "inspect player" and a large number of calculations this past week to min/max my PvP gear by incorporating PvE gear, and the reality is that against some of the end-game PvE stuff I wouldn't stand much of a chance currently. My stats are woefully low compared to someone in Rakata or even in many cases Columi gear. And here's the thing: tier 1 PvP gear - which is actually fairly good - is accessible to anyone at any time. Entry level PvE gear, on the other hand, takes work to get and requires going through some of that PvE that you want the gear for in the first place.

 

The point I am making is simply that bringing the two gear sets closer together so they are more viable in one another's realms simply takes away large chunks of the progression in each. Sure, there's still more to go, but like I said, it would be as if Michael Jordan were able to enter baseball as, say, a low paid major leaguer instead of as a minor leaguer. It would skip a significant amount of the progression.

 

Ahh, and one more point: the gear doesn't take away from the skill requirement as much as some people think or claim it does. It still takes skill to use that gear. If someone truly is a far more skilled player, then a 20% damage boost cannot make up for someone who is incapable of dealing with a crisp rotation, timely CCs, good kiting and movement, and other PvP mainstays. It also isn't going to help someone beat you in your Rakata gear if he is can't even get his rotation set up to proc his crits correctly.

[DuriZap]

I see the implementation of expertise, as laziness and lack of ambition and creativeness amongs the devs. It's very unambitious to implement a half-broken system which has been the center of many heavy discussions.

[DuriZap]

I highlighted what I think is the key statement in your post. The thing is, as regards to this, that there currently is no reason people can't do this. The disagreement here is that I and pro-expertise folks would say that when a PvPer or PvEer swaps over, he should be on a separate gear progression while those unhappy with expertise don't think he should be - or at least not to nearly the same degree.

 

Back in the 80s and 90s, Mchael Jordan progressed through the tiers of basketball. He later wanted to try his hand at baseball. The thing is, when he started playing baseball they didn't just give him the same salary, the same major league roster spot, or the same public recognition that he had in basketball. He was starting out on something new - still a sport, yes, but a different sport with a different progression to work on.

 

When I as a PvPer want to go ahead and raid, having never done it even once before, I should start out at precisely the same point - or as close to it as possible - as a fresh 50. When someone who has beat Karraga's Palace on Nightmare mode wants to jump into his very first warzone, he should have to start out at the same point a fresh 50 does.

 

This is why gear that is viable in PvP can only be obtained through PvP, and why gear that is viable in end-game PvE can only be obtained by doing it. It provides two separate progressions. I understand you're saying that you only really want something closer together - a bit of a compromise perhaps - but putting them closer together to any meaningful degree would mean that as a very well geared PvPer, I don't have to start out at the very beginning of the PvE ladder, or vice versa.

 

Part of the disagreement, I think, is related to an underestimation of just how badly even top tier PvP gear is compared to the high end PvE stuff. There is a perception that PvEers somehow lag impossibly behind PvPers in gear for PvP, but the same is not true the other way around. I must say that it is. I have been doing a lot of "inspect player" and a large number of calculations this past week to min/max my PvP gear by incorporating PvE gear, and the reality is that against some of the end-game PvE stuff I wouldn't stand much of a chance currently. My stats are woefully low compared to someone in Rakata or even in many cases Columi gear. And here's the thing: tier 1 PvP gear - which is actually fairly good - is accessible to anyone at any time. Entry level PvE gear, on the other hand, takes work to get and requires going through some of that PvE that you want the gear for in the first place.

 

The point I am making is simply that bringing the two gear sets closer together so they are more viable in one another's realms simply takes away large chunks of the progression in each. Sure, there's still more to go, but like I said, it would be as if Michael Jordan were able to enter baseball as, say, a low paid major leaguer instead of as a minor leaguer. It would skip a significant amount of the progression.

 

Ahh, and one more point: the gear doesn't take away from the skill requirement as much as some people think or claim it does. It still takes skill to use that gear. If someone truly is a far more skilled player, then a 20% damage boost cannot make up for someone who is incapable of dealing with a crisp rotation, timely CCs, good kiting and movement, and other PvP mainstays. It also isn't going to help someone beat you in your Rakata gear if he is can't even get his rotation set up to proc his crits correctly.

 

Are you aware that PvP and PvE is actually happening in the same game? Your post gives me the impression that you see PvE and PvP as two completely different games, which they are not , they are both SWTOR.

 

You do not do "rotations" much in PvP. Planning ahead more than ½ a second is often not smart, as you have to be ready to change tactics nonstop.

[svartalfimposter]

Expertise is needed to keep purely raiding guilds from dominating warzones, like what happened early in Vanilla WoW,.

 

Yep, we used to do that back in the day... ahh...

[Skolops]

Are you aware that PvP and PvE is actually happening in the same game? Your post gives me the impression that you see PvE and PvP as two completely different games, which they are not , they are both SWTOR.

 

You do not do "rotations" much in PvP. Planning ahead more than ½ a second is often not smart, as you have to be ready to change tactics nonstop.

 

Err, no. You NEED rotations in PvP or you're worthless. Yes, you need to be ready to swap in a stun here, an interrupt there. Yes, you need to be ready to change targets, or abandon the fight and run elsewhere.

 

Rotations are ABSOLUTELY a part of PvP, however. Do you think the marauders and sentinels that are 8.5k critting people and making folks call them OP in PvP are just willy-nilly hitting their abilities? Of course not. There are very particular bust setup rotations. I'm a Shadow - a burst class - and there is absolutely a rotation I need to follow to make my DPS actually worth it.

 

Spend any amount of time reading the class guides in the class forums, searching Youtube PvP video guides, or reading any online guides to PvP and you'll see essentially nothing more than long posts explaining what rotations to use and how to adapt them when necessary.

 

This statement strongly weakens the value of anything you may have to say about PvP, as you don't seem to understand the most basic aspects of it.

[JeramieCrowe]

I have yet to see an answer as to why PvPers voted for "PvPvE" for open-world on one hand, and favor "Expertise" in the other... Edited April 30, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[DarkHelsing]

Updated

 

I see the implementation of expertise, as laziness and lack of ambition and creativeness amongs the devs. It's very unambitious to implement a half-broken system which has been the center of many heavy discussions.

 

Is this a "not needed" vote? I can see you are against it, but I wanted to make sure you were casting a vote encase you just came here to discuss it and not vote.

 

Thank you.

[DarkDruidSS]

Needed

 

It allows PvPer's to get to a point where all gear is equal. Class balance might not be perfect, but dedicated PvPer's will have equal gear and they don't have to worry about some PvE raider coming in and wrecking their day. It also allows the Devs to fine tune combat on the fly without adjusting other stats as much or affecting PvE.

[DarkHelsing]

I highlighted what I think is the key statement in your post.*snip*

 

Nope, that was't not the key point. The key point for me is Player Freedom and Player Choice. If I like the stats on a Mod on a piece of PvP gear, and I'd like to throw that into my Raid set, Expertise says I don't have the Freedom, as a Player, to do that. If I really like the stats on an Enhancement on a piece of Raid gear, and I'd like to throw that into my PvP set, Expertise says I don't have that Choice as a Player. Expertise stats that in order to have the above Freedoms as a Player, in order to have the above Choices as a Player, you will have to gimp yourself in the opposite event. Instead, Expertise currently Forces players out of Freedom of Choice and into segregation.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[DarkHelsing]

Needed

 

It allows PvPer's to get to a point where all gear is equal. Class balance might not be perfect, but dedicated PvPer's will have equal gear and they don't have to worry about some PvE raider coming in and wrecking their day. It also allows the Devs to fine tune combat on the fly without adjusting other stats as much or affecting PvE.

 

If it was all equal, this statement doesn't make much sense. If the gear was equal, then "some PvE raider" won't stand a chance against "dedicated PvPer's" because of player skill... player skill, that thing that should be what determines how well a player does.

 

The Devs already have Bolster to balance out PvP versus PvE.

Edited April 30, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarthKhaos]

Nope, that was't not the key point. The key point for me is Player Freedom and Player Choice. If I like the stats on a Mod on a piece of PvP gear, and I'd like to throw that into my Raid set, Expertise says I don't have the Freedom, as a Player, to do that. If I really like the stats on an Enhancement on a piece of Raid gear, and I'd like to throw that into my PvP set, Expertise says I don't have that Choice as a Player. Expertise stats that in order to have the above Freedoms as a Player, in order to have the above Choices as a Player, you will have to gimp yourself in the opposite event. Instead, Expertise currently Forces players out of Freedom of Choice and into segregation.

You can gain that freedom with more choices of mods. There should be mods that focus more on endurance, some more focused on the primary stat, mods with all of the secondly stats so that as a player if I want to stack crit I can or stack shield rating I can. That would have nothing to do with the PvP stat.

Look at the change in 1.2 they wanted to reduce the power of healers in PvP. They were able to do that by changing the amount of bonus the healing gives from expertise. By doing that they nerfed PvP healers without touching PvE healers. Yes there were other changes but that change affected PvP only via the use of the PvP stat.

 

Also if you read my earlier post with the PvP stat you can have a progression for PvPers that MOST are happy with and not cause PvErs being required to PvP to get a "best in slot" for their PvE and vice versa.

[Finnius]

Not needed.

 

Everything expertise does can be done better with a global buff / debuff to adjust damage and healing levels to where design wants them to be in post-50 PVP. For example, if design wants damage done and damage taken from players adjusted to a specific percentage, then buff ALL players to that percentage.

 

Redistribute expertise into other stats and suddenly all of your gear becomes useful. Differentiate PVP and PVE gear by means of stats and set bonus, not 'lol I have more expertise, I win.' Seems like bad, sloppy design in an otherwise elegantly designed game.

[DarkHelsing]

Updated

[Olympic]

Needed

 

It allows PvPer's to get to a point where all gear is equal. Class balance might not be perfect, but dedicated PvPer's will have equal gear and they don't have to worry about some PvE raider coming in and wrecking their day. It also allows the Devs to fine tune combat on the fly without adjusting other stats as much or affecting PvE.

 

In my 10+ years of PvP in an MMO I've NEVER worried about some "PvE raider" coming in and wrecking my day.

 

If anything, I've mocked "PvE raiders" for failing despite the best gear. Which is usually how it goes.

[Brittaany_Banks]

I've never been a fan of systems that cater to one player base specifically but since PvP and PvE are vastly different systems and BOTH sides continually harp about how gear progression should be tough for both I find no reason why the expertise system we have in place should go away.

 

If you want good gear to PvP in you should have to PvP and vice versa. It would make no sense for me to gain full Rakata gear then go and dominate PvP simply because I am able to best predictable AI nor would it be fair for a PvPer to rip an Operations spot from a dedicated PvEer simply because their PvP gear has a higher rating.

[DarkHelsing]

You can gain that freedom with more choices of mods. There should be mods that focus more on endurance, some more focused on the primary stat, mods with all of the secondly stats so that as a player if I want to stack crit I can or stack shield rating I can. That would have nothing to do with the PvP stat.

Look at the change in 1.2 they wanted to reduce the power of healers in PvP. They were able to do that by changing the amount of bonus the healing gives from expertise. By doing that they nerfed PvP healers without touching PvE healers. Yes there were other changes but that change affected PvP only via the use of the PvP stat.

 

Also if you read my earlier post with the PvP stat you can have a progression for PvPers that MOST are happy with and not cause PvErs being required to PvP to get a "best in slot" for their PvE and vice versa.

 

I understand that this debate is mostly opinion. However there are a couple facts. Fact 1, Bolster can do what you are stating they need Expertise for when considering class balance. It's already in game, it's already working, and puts Expertise into a category of nothing more than Player Segregation, which is wrong, segregation has always been wrong. Fact 2, if everything had Expertise, players and mobs, they could adjust what happens specifically for Raids and PvE environments. This would allow the same thing as not having it.

 

Now, this is opinion, but you stated "MOST" PvPers are happy with this... then why have so many people quit this game. The hardcore pvp guilds are gone, que times are horrific, server population keeps going down, and Bioware is so nervous they gave everything free play time in hopes they stick around. Now I'm sure it has more to do that just Expertise, but look how close this vote is and think of how many players are already gone because issues like this one.

 

Good or bad, it's opinion. This game is hemorrhaging players at such a rate Bioware is already handing out free game time in order to convince them to stay... so opinion or not, something is going wrong. We know how the system is "with Expertise" now, if they re-worked it because those of us that don't like it are complaining about, they very well could re-work it into a system that everyone thinks is amazing. Why wouldn't player want a better system even if they are for Expertise...?