Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[DarkHelsing]

I've never been a fan of systems that cater to one player base specifically but since PvP and PvE are vastly different systems and BOTH sides continually harp about how gear progression should be tough for both I find no reason why the expertise system we have in place should go away.

 

If you want good gear to PvP in you should have to PvP and vice versa. It would make no sense for me to gain full Rakata gear then go and dominate PvP simply because I am able to best predictable AI nor would it be fair for a PvPer to rip an Operations spot from a dedicated PvEer simply because their PvP gear has a higher rating.

 

What makes you think the underlined would happen? If you have Rakata gear, and I have Rakata gear, and they have Rakata, how are you going to dominate anything? Why do people care how you got the gear?

 

If it took you 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear, and it took him 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear, and it took her 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear.... why do players care if that 1 week was spent PvPing or PvEing!? 1 week is 1 week, is 1 week, is 1 week, is 1 week... who cares?

Edited April 30, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Skolops]

Nope, that was't not the key point. The key point for me is Player Freedom and Player Choice. If I like the stats on a Mod on a piece of PvP gear, and I'd like to throw that into my Raid set, Expertise says I don't have the Freedom, as a Player, to do that. If I really like the stats on an Enhancement on a piece of Raid gear, and I'd like to throw that into my PvP set, Expertise says I don't have that Choice as a Player. Expertise stats that in order to have the above Freedoms as a Player, in order to have the above Choices as a Player, you will have to gimp yourself in the opposite event. Instead, Expertise currently Forces players out of Freedom of Choice and into segregation.

 

This is exactly the point. You're right. You DON'T have the freedom to use gear gained in PvP for PvE, or vice versa. You're not SUPPOSED to. That's the design. It's the way the developers (and many or most of the players) want it. It forces you to progress along the PvE track to get better at PvE, and to progress along the PvP track to get better at PvP, just like you can't get better at football by playing hockey.

 

It's intended to work precisely this way to give more things for people to do in end-game rather than simply having a one-and-done, easy, "I beat the game lolz" mechanic.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Skolops

[Brittaany_Banks]

What makes you think the underlined would happen? If you have Rakata gear, and I have Rakata gear, and they have Rakata, how are you going to dominate anything?

 

Well there is also the issue (one I did not touch on in that statement) that PvPers DO NOT want to be forced to PvE so they can aquire the best gear in order to PvP. I happen to agree with their stance on that. Would it be fair to a PvEer that they HAVE to PvP so they can gain PvE gear?

 

This is why both sets of gear need to remain separated and with the expertise differences

[DarkHelsing]

This is exactly the point. You're right. You DON'T have the freedom to use gear gained in PvP for PvE, or vice versa. You're not SUPPOSED to. That's the design. It's the way the developers (and many or most of the players) want it. It forces you to progress along the PvE track to get better at PvE, and to progress along the PvP track to get better at PvP, just like you can't get better at football by playing hockey.

 

It's intended to work precisely this way to give more things for people to do in end-game rather than simply having a one-and-done, easy, "I beat the game lolz" mechanic.

 

Hence why we are asking for it to be changed.

 

Even pre-Patch 1.2 you could mix and match Mods and Enhancements from PvE and PvP more than you can now. By design, sure, you're right, and by the way this game is losing players, there seem to be a lot of people that don't like "the way Bioware intended".

 

Some of us like the game, and if there's a better way to do things, wouldn't both sides of this argument want that?

[RJMazz]

I guarantee this guy gets rolled in pvp.

 

I guarantee you are awesome. By the way I'm being ironic, so your brain can follow.

 

I often can win 1vs3 fights in my Sentinel, sometimes 1vs2 with most of my other characters. I hardly find anyone who beats me 1 on 1, but 1 on 1 battles are rare occasions, since I'm mostly focused on helping my team in warzones.

 

The game doesn't need the stat, because BioWare could work around and make the progression for both gamestyles equal in the way people acquire the same kind of gear with the same stats. I do both kinds of games, PvE and PvP, and I dislike having to "work" (because if I'm working in a game, I'm not having fun).

 

My vote went for Not Needed because, simply, it is not needed, but it's a benefit for the game, the way things are working right now, and it's more like a necessary evil.

 

You should also keep yourself shut and respect my opinion before you begin scatting by that sewer hole you call mouth saying I'm a bad, buddy.

[DarkHelsing]

Well there is also the issue (one I did not touch on in that statement) that PvPers DO NOT want to be forced to PvE so they can aquire the best gear in order to PvP. I happen to agree with their stance on that. Would it be fair to a PvEer that they HAVE to PvP so they can gain PvE gear?

 

This is why both sets of gear need to remain separated and with the expertise differences

 

Ok, so PvPers take 1 week to get a piece of Rakata gear. Then PvEers it takes 1 week to get a piece of Rakata gear.

 

Both sides have gear progression, both sides it takes the same average amount time to get one piece of gear, both sides have a linear and equal progression path. Giving the player the freedom of choice on what they want to do and how they want to do it.

(in its simplest form, more choices and more things would be great, these have all be suggested, so the above is just the simplest form.)

Edited April 30, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[VoidJustice]

Personally the only thing I hate more than expertise... is relearning the game every patch due to WILD and WIMSICAL player demands.

 

LEAVE IT ALONE...

 

that being said... I miss the old days where gear upgrades gave more primary/secondary stats and you didn't feel cheated when you got new gear cause it doesn't "look" better stat wise to you.

Edited April 30, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Skolops]

Hence why we are asking for it to be changed.

 

Even pre-Patch 1.2 you could mix and match Mods and Enhancements from PvE and PvP more than you can now. By design, sure, you're right, and by the way this game is losing players, there seem to be a lot of people that don't like "the way Bioware intended".

 

Some of us like the game, and if there's a better way to do things, wouldn't both sides of this argument want that?

 

Sure, but the thing is that I - and others, of course - just don't agree with you that your desires are better. I think it would be a far worse game if the two tracks were much closer than they are now.

 

Look, I want a Black Hole focus. It's going to take me a long time to get because I don't PvE much. Guess what? That's fine. It's something to work towards.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Skolops

[Olympic]

It forces you to progress along the PvE track to get better at PvE, and to progress along the PvP track to get better at PvP, just like you can't get better at football by playing hockey.

 

How do you get better a PvE? You do a quest once or twice, learn the formula, then nap through it every other night to get your sugar treats.

[funkiestj]

Here is a question for the "get rid of expertise" crowd. Ignoring the basic question of "should there be a separate WZ gear progression", what aspect of PvP with the existing expertise system is unpleasant?

 

 

• Time to kill (i.e. you die too quickly)?
  
• Getting rolled by geared up PvP grinders?
  

 

Are there other game play issues?

 

Why won't rated WZs and 8x8 queuing improve the above issues? Presumably the best premades will want to queue 8 and play against the best opponents. Likewise, in the full PUG and 1/2 PUG WZs, presumably the rating system will improve team balance.

 

If nearly all of the WZs were matches were fairly balanced (neither side crushing the other, raiders who occassionally WZ get queued against folks with similar gear) would you still object to the expertise system?

 

Of course you can speculate that "there won't be enough population to avoid having a highly expertised 4 man premade mixed with a PvE geared casual, and this will be bad game experience because of the PvE player's time to die" . Presumably cross server WZs would increase the player population and allow more "like vs like" scheduling without excessively long queue times.

 

BTW, I know rated WZs are coming. Is cross server WZs definitely on the road map or just a possibility?

Edited April 30, 2012 by funkiestj
minor readability changes.

[Olympic]

Ok, so PvPers take 1 week to get a piece of Rakata gear. Then PvEers it takes 1 week to get a piece of Rakata gear.

 

Both sides have gear progression, both sides it takes the same average amount time to get one piece of gear, both sides have a linear and equal progression path. Giving the player the freedom of choice on what they want to do and how they want to do it.

(in its simplest form, more choices and more things would be great, these have all be suggested, so the above is just the simplest form.)

 

They won't get it.

[DarkDruidSS]

In my 10+ years of PvP in an MMO I've NEVER worried about some "PvE raider" coming in and wrecking my day.

 

If anything, I've mocked "PvE raiders" for failing despite the best gear. Which is usually how it goes.

 

Ok, not going to start a fight on here, but in your 10+ years of MMO gaming please name the SKILL based pvp mmos you have played. By skill I mean they didn't have a gear advantage and they were balanced within reason for pvp.

 

Just curious to see if you can name one because in my 10+ years I can't think of this ever being the case.

[mangarrage]

It is absolutely needed period

 

However it does not necessarily need to have a value assigned to it

 

What you basically do is you have a maximum.

If you have 13 slots each slot is worth 10 at recruit, 20 at BM, 30 at WM

Each level is a standard increase in dmg, def, healing

 

If a slot is empty of expertise you take 2x the reduction to total expertise

 

So what this does is

-keeps the progression for pvpers

-limits the amount of "advantage" a WH has over a recruit

-eliminates the use of pve gear in pvp (due to the penalty)

 

Essentially you can do the same for raid gear with another stat

 

pvp and pve have to remain completely separate animals.

I have seen both ways and it doesn't work

Raiders dominating pvp and pvp gear being bis for raiders and you just can't have it

 

Oh and it doesn't take the same time. I got 3 rakata pieces on my first hard mode raid, so 3 pieces in about 2 hours times. Try pvping for 2 hours and get about 1/8th of a piece

Edited April 30, 2012 by mangarrage

[DarkHelsing]

Sure, but the thing is that I - and others, of course - just don't agree with you that your desires are better. I think it would be a far worse game if the two tracks were much closer than they are now.

 

Sure, remove my desires... I'm no dev, far from it. But World of Warcraft was the first big mmo to make this segregation and they made it only because in the early days they screwed it up so bad it was rofl-unbalanced. Now people use that as the comparison. There are so many better ways to handle gear progression for PvPvE, and so many other mmos out there that have proven it.

 

Even within itself SWTOR has proven a better way to handle it... Pre-50, the 10-49 bracket uses Bolster and PvE gear progression, and the amazing thing is, it works. Players can go PvE, que for PvP, PvP, go back to PvE, back and forth as they see fit. Hit level 50 and bam, people are leaving this game left and right.

 

So my opinions, my suggestions are far from perfect, but there is something seriously wrong with SWTOR end game. I believe Expertise is a piece of this poorly constructed puzzle of SWTOR End Game.

[DarkHelsing]

Ok, not going to start a fight on here, but in your 10+ years of MMO gaming please name the SKILL based pvp mmos you have played. By skill I mean they didn't have a gear advantage and they were balanced within reason for pvp.

 

Just curious to see if you can name one because in my 10+ years I can't think of this ever being the case.

 

Guild Wars

Lineage

Lineage 2

Ultima online

Shadow Bane

[Olympic]

Ok, not going to start a fight on here, but in your 10+ years of MMO gaming please name the SKILL based pvp mmos you have played. By skill I mean they didn't have a gear advantage and they were balanced within reason for pvp.

 

Just curious to see if you can name one because in my 10+ years I can't think of this ever being the case.

 

Every game has a gear advantage no matter how you cut it. If you have better gear than the other person, then you have a gear advantage. Someone in full WH gear has a gear advantage over someone in full recruit gear, expertise or not.

[DarkDruidSS]

Every game has a gear advantage no matter how you cut it. If you have better gear than the other person, then you have a gear advantage. Someone in full WH gear has a gear advantage over someone in full recruit gear, expertise or not.

 

Thanks for an honest answer.

 

Guild Wars

Lineage

Lineage 2

Ultima online

Shadow Bane

 

Now, granted you hit pretty much every game I haven't played, but I do have a little knowledge that would lead to Lineage both having significant gear advantages. Lineage with the ability to make your weapons do more damage... sure it could cost you the weapon if you failed, but you could get pretty godly weapons if you were lucky.

Edited April 30, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[BlackZoback]

What makes you think the underlined would happen? If you have Rakata gear, and I have Rakata gear, and they have Rakata, how are you going to dominate anything? Why do people care how you got the gear?

 

If it took you 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear, and it took him 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear, and it took her 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear.... why do players care if that 1 week was spent PvPing or PvEing!? 1 week is 1 week, is 1 week, is 1 week, is 1 week... who cares?

 

Because 1 week of pve gearing dose not = 1 week of pvp gearing.... and it never will.

 

A new lvl 50 merc of one of our regular raiders has gotten 4/5 rakata, MH weapon, mount and title from one day of raiding (lucky I know) so unless the rate of gear gain is exactly the same then it not going to work, ever.

 

Its needed

Edited April 30, 2012 by BlackZoback

[Jadescythe]

It is needed

 

I will make a simplistic comparison for the purposes of my arguement. What is necessary to be competitive in PVE is not the same as what is necessary to be competitive in PVP. My comparison would be to gear and roles. Gear that is good for a tank sin is not the same as gear for a DPS sin. If you don't think that expertise is necessary then I would guess you only do PVE or PVP competitively and do the other more for fun (more likely PVP for fun). The stat boost needed to clear NM or even HM ops is much higher due to the large amounts of HP that need to be overcome. Doing the same amount of damage against a boss with 200k hp (random number) as to a player with 17k hp is going to make the TTK in pvp ridiculously low. Personally, I don't want to be one shotted in WZ's.

[DarkHelsing]

Now, granted you hit pretty much every game I haven't played, but I do have a little knowledge that would lead to Lineage both having significant gear advantages. Lineage with the ability to make your weapons do more damage... sure it could cost you the weapon if you failed, but you could get pretty godly weapons if you were lucky.

 

Correct, but in all the games I listed, the progression of gear was not segregated. It was all PvPvE, not PvP vs PvE. WoW was pretty much the game that decided to do that and make that well known. then they did it so horrifically when it was first released that Raiders had the best gear and dominated in PvP. Instead of addressing the core issues with that, they decided to just separate them further and further. Now people just think that lazy mentality is the way to handle it, because it's what they know. (for the most part)

 

SWTOR started off great, the Bolster system worked (for the most part), and it was a PvPvE game. Then 50 hits and the players were pushed into a PvP vs PvE system. Then Patch 1.2 furthered this separation by putting Expertise on each removable item.

 

Yes, this topic is highly opinion based. My opinion is SWTOR have proven the system is better without Expertise.

[TehLost]

Needed

[DarkHelsing]

Because 1 week of pve gearing dose not = 1 week of pvp gearing.... and it never will.

 

A new lvl 50 merc of one of our regular raiders has gotten 4/5 rakata, MH weapon, mount and title from one day of raiding (lucky I know) so unless the rate of gear gain is exactly the same then it not going to work, ever.

 

Its needed

 

It's an example. Remove your thought of "it never will". Say it does. Say next week patch makes it to where 1 week of either event nets you a piece of gear. Expertise is "in the game", so any talk of removing it is only based of examples and ideas.

 

Why is that so hard to grasp?

[Brittaany_Banks]

What makes you think the underlined would happen? If you have Rakata gear, and I have Rakata gear, and they have Rakata, how are you going to dominate anything? Why do people care how you got the gear?

 

If it took you 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear, and it took him 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear, and it took her 1 week to get X, Y and Z pieces of gear.... why do players care if that 1 week was spent PvPing or PvEing!? 1 week is 1 week, is 1 week, is 1 week, is 1 week... who cares?

 

Because one side is not the same as the other thats why. PvP is not PvE and deserves its own unique gear. PvE is not PvP and deserves its own unique gear.

 

As you advance through PvP gear it should make you better in PvP. As you advance through PvE gear it should make you better at PvE. PvE gear should not make you better at PvP and PvP gear should not make you better at PvE REGARDLESS of how long it takes you to aquire it.

 

 

 

Also where is this one week crap coming from? I got my first piece of Rakata gear on April 22nd 2012. Since that date I have gotten 6 more pieces of Rakata gear with the last piece being last night April 29th 2012. It only took me 1 week to get 7 pieces of Rakata gear. My Battlemaster gear progression has been slightly worse only because I have been doing more PvE than PvP. I realize this is anecdotal at best but it does not take THAT long to achieve top gear... not anymore anyway.

[DarkHelsing]

It is needed

 

I will make a simplistic comparison for the purposes of my arguement. What is necessary to be competitive in PVE is not the same as what is necessary to be competitive in PVP. My comparison would be to gear and roles. Gear that is good for a tank sin is not the same as gear for a DPS sin. If you don't think that expertise is necessary then I would guess you only do PVE or PVP competitively and do the other more for fun (more likely PVP for fun). The stat boost needed to clear NM or even HM ops is much higher due to the large amounts of HP that need to be overcome. Doing the same amount of damage against a boss with 200k hp (random number) as to a player with 17k hp is going to make the TTK in pvp ridiculously low. Personally, I don't want to be one shotted in WZ's.

 

Using your comparison for your argument; How do the players survive in 10-49 bracket?

[HoosierDuke]

Guild Wars

Lineage

Lineage 2

Ultima online

Shadow Bane

 

Wait a minute ... Guild Wars had a thriving end game raiding community? Man I missed that one.