Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[TheronFett]

updated

 

Interesting. There are 74 players who want to continue to have gear-based PvP instead of skill based PvP. Go figure.

 

[JeramieCrowe]

Interesting. There are 74 players who want to continue to have gear-based PvP instead of skill based PvP. Go figure.

 

 

Yep. Real PvP is officially extinct. People just want GvG these days.

[Skolops]

Interesting. There are 74 players who want to continue to have gear-based PvP instead of skill based PvP. Go figure.

 

 

This is a somewhat silly statement. The entire game is "gear based," not just PvP. Whether you are level 50 in a warzone or level 10 on Hutta, the quality of your gear is going to determine your effectiveness. Acquiring better gear is one of the objectives of the game, just as much as reaching checkmate is the goal for chess.

 

You may not like this model, and that is fine. However, it is the general MMO model and one which this game has adopted, and therefore if you do not like it you may not enjoy the game as much as someone else who does.

[Skolops]

Continuing on my last post, the entire point of expertise is to make sure that a PvP player has something to work towards just as a PvE player has to work towards better gear so that he is able to eventually succeed in the most difficult operations or flashpoints. It ensures that PvP has a progression alongside PvE so that there are two things to work towards and the game has more diversity.

[eclipce]

I wont be reaplying more to these threads regarding expertise - most of those who wants to keep it refuse to look beyond the narrowminded " seperate pvp and pvp / protect us from the raiders" arguments and that they seem to be used to this and only this - and of/c that most think that WZ is the ONLY competative pvp that can be had in a mmo, and ending everything with "end of story" and "nuff said" "/thread"

 

That and some people are seriously dead set on that grinding your aim in FPS are the same as grinding gear in a mmo - good luck bro!

 

ps: I like the results so far, since it mostly pvp'ers who have voted.

[DarkHelsing]

If we keep expertise, this is the simplest and best idea I've heard so far.

 

Alternately, we could transform any piece of PVE gear into Recruit gear upon entry to a warzone. Of course, those 25k health tanks would whine and complain that their health was reduced to 16k... so I suppose that while it would work, people would still throw a fit about the design.

I have to again agree with you. One of the first posts I made on these boards about the PvP systems was requesting a better Que system, and if they must use Expertise, for it to be at the maximum a set bonus that never changes.

 

Prior to patch 1.2 I read so many threads on here about how Expertise was a bad idea, or poorly implemented at best. I myself made a thread about the problems I felt PvP had. A lot of what I read, players wanted Expertise gone. If you can't get rid of it then move to a set bonus instead of an ever increasing system. The second big complaint was the players could not customize their gear like they had been accustomed to doing up to level 50. Or new looking gear, Operatives that didn’t have 80’s FM radio headsets for head gear. Sorcs and Assassins that didn’t have feather head dresses and skirts, etc. Finally I read a lot about how poorly the que system was, no cross server, horrible pub to imp ratios, and a que system that allowed games to start 4 versus 8.

 

So Patch 1.2 was looking to be a new rebirth into all these issues. The new gear was going to be strippable so we could customize our gear like prior to level 50. A que system that allows 8 player groups to que against each other 8 player groups. And a revamped Expertise system.

 

Patch 1.2 hits… and those in the PvP end game had disappointment handed out all around.

 

1) The gear can be totally removed and customized, but the set bonus stays with the gear anyways, so there goes having any choice of using the gear you like the look of unless you plan to gimp your toon. So that advertised feature literally meant nothing as players are stuck with the gear anyways.

2) The new gear, when did Rainbow Bright get hired as the lead designer for Bioware?

3) Expertise was adjusted, but instead of helping remove it from the game, or bring it down to steady levels, more Expertise was added to the gear.

4) Players that customized their gear prior to patch 1.2 got rewarded for their creative by losing the new Expertise that was added to the Mod and Enhancement slots.

5) The old win-lose system did not give Premades much of an incentive to play, only to finish the dailies fasters. The new system that rewards the win, but gives little to nothing to the loosing team, now offers major incentive for premades. However the que system has no problem throwing 8 player ops groups versus 100% total random groups. So the Que system went from bad to horrible.

 

Allow PvE'ers get gear by doing PvE. PvP'ers get gear by doing PvP. Different looks, different set bonuses, different ways to customize, these are all things that make having more choices fun... but never anything to force players into one venue or the other, never removing the ability to allow the player base to choose freely how they want to get gear. And there is no reason PvPers shouldn't be able to take a break from PvP and raid, and raiders shouldn't be able to take a break from Raiding and PvP. The fact that I die during a raid because I didn't know where to stand, or the fact that they die during PvP because they didn't know... those are the things that should separate players... how well they actually play.

 

The updates Bioware have made to PvP went in the opposite direction they needed to go. From class balance, to skill trees, to gear redesign, to the que system, to the reward system. I haven't seen so many people quit after a patch in any MMO I’ve ever played.

 

Your Que system needs a complete over-haul. Ops Groups should not be able to enter a Que against total pugs, period. If the server population means that feature would be totally dead… then re-haul the system for cross-server Ques. Groups of 3 and less should only ever play against other groups of 3 or less (and with the 5-7 que, more on that below). Groups of 4 should only get Qued against groups of 4, so each team has 2 premades on it. Groups of 5-7 should be in their own Que, allowing one or two random players onto a team. Groups of 8 should only get Qued against other Groups of 8. Four different Que levels, for balance and because it’s the logical way to handle it.

 

Obviously that's all opinion... but man, I loved this game till Patch 1.2, and I feel so crushed to have to leave it. I have to guess that Bioware knows the ship is hemorrhaging players, hence the free play time hand out. I don't think this game deserves to go f2p, and I don't know if it's headed that way, but server populations don't look good, and pvp ques don't look good.

[DarkHelsing]

Interesting. There are 74 players who want to continue to have gear-based PvP instead of skill based PvP. Go figure.

 

 

Take into consideration the amount of players that have already un-subbed due to the PvP system, we will never see their vote here, and I doubt it would have been positive.

Edited April 28, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[JeramieCrowe]

This is a somewhat silly statement. The entire game is "gear based," not just PvP. Whether you are level 50 in a warzone or level 10 on Hutta, the quality of your gear is going to determine your effectiveness. Acquiring better gear is one of the objectives of the game, just as much as reaching checkmate is the goal for chess.

 

You may not like this model, and that is fine. However, it is the general MMO model and one which this game has adopted, and therefore if you do not like it you may not enjoy the game as much as someone else who does.

 

Your gear is supposed to assist your skills. Not BE your skills.

[JeramieCrowe]

Continuing on my last post, the entire point of expertise is to make sure that a PvP player has something to work towards just as a PvE player has to work towards better gear so that he is able to eventually succeed in the most difficult operations or flashpoints. It ensures that PvP has a progression alongside PvE so that there are two things to work towards and the game has more diversity.

 

Yet when they implement PvPvE, which itself has objectives and goals to work toward, as well as rewards, where does expertise fit in there?

Edited April 28, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[DarkHelsing]

Continuing on my last post, the entire point of expertise is to make sure that a PvP player has something to work towards just as a PvE player has to work towards better gear so that he is able to eventually succeed in the most difficult operations or flashpoints. It ensures that PvP has a progression alongside PvE so that there are two things to work towards and the game has more diversity.

 

This is probably the most common argument I've seen here. I am always boggled when I see it too. I'm not insulting you or anything, don't take that statement in that regard. What I mean is even those against Expertise still want progression for PvP and still want progression for PvE. Just have less of a Gear Gap between the two events, a more Linear path.

 

Example;

PvE'ers get gear by doing PvE. PvP'ers get gear by doing PvP. Different looks, different set bonuses, different ways to customize, these are all things that make having more choices fun... but never anything to force players into one venue or the other, never removing the ability to allow the player base to choose freely how they want to get gear. And there is no reason PvPers shouldn't be able to take a break from PvP and raid, and Raiders shouldn't be able to take a break from Raiding and PvP. The fact that I die during a raid because I didn't know where to stand, or the fact that they die during PvP because they didn't know... those are the things that should separate players... how well they actually play.

 

 

Even prior to patch 1.2 it was more Linear and still had Expertise. Prior to patch 1.2 my Raiding gear was all mix matched with modifications. My BM set was the same. My Helm, and Gloves were totally stripped and replaced with the items from my Champion set. My Chest, Legs, and boots had their enchantments stripped and all replaced with various other ones, I even had an item level 42 mod in my BM boots. Because of this ability to mix and match, I created a gear set that fit my play style perfectly. I cannot do that now. If I remove a Mod from a Raiding set and put it into my PvP set, I'll lose all the Expertise from that Mod and gimp my toon. My freedom of choices was removed and forced into a venue no matter if I liked it or not.

Edited April 28, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Totaltrash]

Of course it's not needed - just a lazy excuse for developers trying to balance PvP in a PvE game.

 

Don't tamper with gear, fix the mechanics!

 

I'm in a PvE guild, and I probably could beat any of my PvE guildmates in any gear.

I'm not saying they are bad or I'm that good, I just have that much more experience with it.

So, to anyone who is concerned that they would lose their edge over casual pvp'ers in pve gear:

 

If that scares you, you have no business pvp'ing at all!

[DarkHelsing]

Of course it's not needed - just a lazy excuse for developers trying to balance PvP in a PvE game.

 

Don't tamper with gear, fix the mechanics!*snip*

 

I agree with that too.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[Erasimus]

Needed

 

I like the idea of different gear for PvP versus PvE and don'/t mind working for whichever gear I need to compete in either venue.

 

Gear progression is a part of every MMO, and not everyone hates the idea of gear progression. Optimizing your character through gear progression, leveling, etc is a part of an MMO that I, and others, enjoy. If you are going to get rid of gear progression why not get rid of having to level characters at the same time?

 

If you could make the effort involved in getting the best gear the same for both PvP PvE then having the same gear for both would make some sense. But I believe t his would be almost impossible to balance. If it is even marginally easier to get the best gear doing one or the other then you:

1. Will have people doing something they don't like just to remain competitive

or

2. Have people leaving the game because the don't feel they can be competitive only doing the activity they prefer.

 

PvP does need some tweaks but I feel that a PvP only stat is an important part of PvP in an MMO.

[Schwarzwald]

Expertise is needed to keep purely raiding guilds from dominating warzones, like what happened early in Vanilla WoW,.

[FusDoRah]

It is needed

[JeramieCrowe]

Expertise is needed to keep purely raiding guilds from dominating warzones, like what happened early in Vanilla WoW,.

 

Except that when BW implements their PvPvE like PvPers here voted for, then the rewarded gear with Expertise will result in more powerful gear than raided, or the stats will be inferior in an attempt to make up for the Expertise. Either way, let's see how that goes over. Lead balloon comes to mind...

Edited April 28, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Schwarzwald]

Except that when BW implements their PvPvE like PvPers here voted for, then the rewarded gear with Expertise will result in more powerful gear than raided, or the stats will be inferior in an attempt to make up for the Expertise. Either way, let's see how that goes over. Lead balloon comes to mind...

 

pvpve is not going to happen

 

not within any foreseable future.

[DarkHelsing]

Expertise is needed to keep purely raiding guilds from dominating warzones, like what happened early in Vanilla WoW,.

 

That only happened in V-WoW because PvP gear wasn't up to par. If both paths of progression led to similar gear, with the same average play time required to get the gear no matter which path you took... purely raiding guilds won't have any advantage, at all, the disadvantage will be they raid and don't pvp much... leaving their disadvantage being player skill, like it should be.

 

The below quote describes this in more detail.

(Before I begin, This suggestion covers both PvP and PvE issues, but frankly I wasn't sure which forum to put it in. When pieces were discussed before, it seemed most of the obection were from the PvP section, and thus I have placed it here. If anyone has a better, proper place, I will make a post there.)

 

A little about me:

I am both a PvE and PvP player, and have run HM's, Operations, PuG'ed PvP, Premade PvP, and even participated in Ilum operation battles of 32+ people. I have 3 level 50's of each role, and have played almost every class till 30.

 

The amount of time I can or will play varies from week to week, and thus I have been the kind of player who can only play a few hours, or who can play many hours on end.

 

The suggestion:

 

At the current moment, post 50 sees a divide in progression. Rather than moving foward towards end-game content and gear, players divide into end game PvE or PvP. Their gear is different, as is the time to obtain such gear. This causes a rift in the number of players, given that everyone has a limit of time, doing either activity.

 

My suggestion, in it's simpliest form, is to equalize and balance the two "sides" of end game content so that each side is interchangeable, even and fair.

 

Below will be detailed suggestions on how to do this. There will be a few basic and points that must be understood before making an argument before or against the suggestion.

 

Basic Terms:

 

In order for this to work, a few assumptions/ideas need to be considered.

 

The first being we must assume Majority Completion. Majority completion means when balancing rates of gear progression, it must be balanced around the idea that the player is able to beat the majority of the tasks given. In PvE, this means downing bosses and clearing operations. In PvP, this will mean winning the majority of your games, thus receiving the higher rewards. If progression is not balanced around this, than a PvP player will have the advantage of being able to lose repeatedly and still progress as fast as a PvE player who can not clear a boss.

 

Secondly, we must understand the concept of End-game Content/Goals. End game content, in this definition, refers to anything post 50. Whether this is 50 Warzones, Hard Modes, Operations, or World Events. End-game Goals are the things you strive for once leveling is complete. Pre-50, the goal is to reach max level, and you are presented a number of paths to reach it. Post-50, your goals then shift to gearing, as that is the only way to "progress."

 

Thirdly, the term Equal will be used often. This is defined as the number of (X) hours one must spend, as well as the amount of (Y) effort. This ties heavily into the Majority Completion term, and thus, any argument of; "Such and Such activity is hard, or takes more skill" is a moot point. Equal work means the two paths will be balanced around taking the same amount of time and the same amount of completion to achieve (Z) the same goal.

 

In-depth Suggestion:

 

(1.) The Tiers of PvP and PvE gear must be made equal stat wise. A Tier 2 PvP player could then participate in Tier 2 end game content as easily as a player who obtained Tier 2 PvE gear. This includes getting rid of the PvP only stat, Expertise. The difference between the two could be cosmetic, to allow a PvP or PvE player to set themselves apart, without being unable to participate in all the End-game content they are paying for.

 

(2.) The work to gain either PvP or PvE must be equalized. It would then take (X) hours to receive a piece of gear, as long as you complete (Y) a majority of the content within that time. This would require an overhaul of the way in which gear would be acquired, and would either see PvP gear returning to a chance rate, or PvE rewards switching to a more steady progression. This could include bosses dropping tokens, which would need to be saved up (much like the current daily/weekly PvE system) to purchase gear. The exact method is irrelevant at this time, though suggestions are welcome. The core idea is Equal Work is needed to obtian Tier 1, 2, or 3 gear, no matter which path you take.

 

(3.) A new buff when entering 50's pvp (both world and warzones) would be required to allow PvP balance without shattering PvE balance. Like bolster, this buff would essential give PvP players +Expertise, and an equal amount of expertise. Then +%Dmg, +%Healing, +%Mitigation could be balanced without needing specific "PvP gear.

(I lost the forum where this was first suggested, but I want to note the PvP buff was not entirely my idea, and this wish I could acredit it properly.)

 

The End Result:

 

Just like how Pre-50 gives you several paths to reach the end goal (max level), the combining and equalizing of end-game gear and progression would give you multiple paths of reaching the End-game goal. There would be an increase in both PvP and PvE cross-play. There would be a system to balance PvP play outside of PvE play. Over all, I feel the health of the game would increase.

 

Discussion:

 

Please feel free to discuss, suggest, or offer insight into specific, unseen problems. I encourage everyone to remember the terms/concepts defined in this post when discussing to avoid confusion over the "suggested" progression and the "current ingame" progression. Finally, I happily invite discussion over these points, but non-constructive "bashing" in either direction, will either be ignored or reported if warranted. Thank you all for your time!

Edited April 28, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[JeramieCrowe]

pvpve is not going to happen

 

not within any foreseable future.

 

Source? Because James Ohlen's poll was just last week, and the PvP team is working on something for open-world...

 

Unless you think 4 months is not the forseeable future?

[wolfmith]

It's needed, leave it be Edited April 28, 2012 by wolfmith

[WookieBob]

needed at least until I can get non expertise gear with stats equivalent to the effects of expertise.

I'm not sure what the fuss about expertise is really about other than "They have something we don't" when all expertise looks to do is add the effect of greater stats without giving those stats. They may be giving more expertise than they should be, other than that I see no problems.

[DarkHelsing]

needed at least until I can get non expertise gear with stats equivalent to the effects of expertise.

I'm not sure what the fuss about expertise is really about other than "They have something we don't" when all expertise looks to do is add the effect of greater stats without giving those stats. They may be giving more expertise than they should be, other than that I see no problems.

 

With systems in place like Bolster, this is one of the main reasons why "I" don't like it, feeling it should be more like this:

 

PvE'ers get gear by doing PvE. PvP'ers get gear by doing PvP. Different looks, different set bonuses, different ways to customize, these are all things that make having more choices fun... but never anything to force players into one venue or the other, never removing the ability to allow the player base to choose freely how they want to get gear. And there is no reason PvPers shouldn't be able to take a break from PvP and raid, and Raiders shouldn't be able to take a break from Raiding and PvP. The fact that I die during a raid because I didn't know where to stand, or the fact that they die during PvP because they didn't know... those are the things that should separate players... how well they actually play. Even prior to patch 1.2 it was more Linear and still had Expertise. Prior to patch 1.2 my Raiding gear was all mix matched with modifications. My BM set was the same. My Helm, and Gloves were totally stripped and replaced with the items from my Champion set. My Chest, Legs, and boots had their enchantments stripped and all replaced with various other ones, I even had an item level 42 mod in my BM boots. Because of this ability to mix and match, I created a gear set that fit my play style perfectly. I cannot do that now. If I remove a Mod from a Raiding set and put it into my PvP set, I'll lose all the Expertise from that Mod and gimp my toon. My freedom of choices was removed and forced into a venue no matter if I liked it or not.

Edited April 28, 2012 by DarkHelsing