Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[SirSensi]

Though I personally can't speak for them, I'd have to say it was due to a few things. The first being to cater to the crowd of Exclusive PvP'ers who don't want to PvE for their gear. The second being they probably couldn't change the way loot/gearing was done with a game that old.

 

I hope, with Swtor being a newer game with less "content" the devs can look for another solution, other than the easier way. Swtor had been about innovation, let's hope they can keep it up.

 

(On a side note: ^_^ You too? I never played Swg, but I use to play other Mmo's where there wasn't a pvp stat or pvp gear. Top PvP'ers were also top PvE'ers. Pretty much, they were top gamers.)

 

Yep. SWG was pretty much the same way. And I had been playing since launch (2003). It was only until the SWG playerbase got the pinkslip I went over and gave RIFT a shot... that was where I learned really fast on the gear disparity between the caste of players. I've taken beatings in both games and other MMO's I have played, but nothing like I had taken in RIFT and here in SWTOR.

 

But the thing with SWG was it was ALL player-driven economy. The best weapons, armor, etc was crafted by players who took the time to go out and throw down harvestors for the best mats. Then, the armorsmith or weaponsmith would craft all the sub componets to get the pieces for making weapons/armor. So, you would end up seeing massive harvestors all over any habitable planet surface, and troops of players running Heroics for a chance to get that one schematic for their toon (P-8 Lamprey Pistols, Tusken King Backpacks, Juyo Lightsaber, and ofcourse +35 enhancers for melee/ranged weapons).

[JeramieCrowe]

Yep. SWG was pretty much the same way. And I had been playing since launch (2003). It was only until the SWG playerbase got the pinkslip I went over and gave RIFT a shot... that was where I learned really fast on the gear disparity between the caste of players. I've taken beatings in both games and other MMO's I have played, but nothing like I had taken in RIFT and here in SWTOR.

 

But the thing with SWG was it was ALL player-driven economy. The best weapons, armor, etc was crafted by players who took the time to go out and throw down harvestors for the best mats. Then, the armorsmith or weaponsmith would craft all the sub componets to get the pieces for making weapons/armor. So, you would end up seeing massive harvestors all over any habitable planet surface, and troops of players running Heroics for a chance to get that one schematic for their toon (P-8 Lamprey Pistols, Tusken King Backpacks, Juyo Lightsaber, and ofcourse +35 enhancers for melee/ranged weapons).

 

Ahhhh...such nostalgia... SWG will be missed.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Yep. SWG was pretty much the same way. And I had been playing since launch (2003). It was only until the SWG playerbase got the pinkslip I went over and gave RIFT a shot... that was where I learned really fast on the gear disparity between the caste of players. I've taken beatings in both games and other MMO's I have played, but nothing like I had taken in RIFT and here in SWTOR.

 

But the thing with SWG was it was ALL player-driven economy. The best weapons, armor, etc was crafted by players who took the time to go out and throw down harvestors for the best mats. Then, the armorsmith or weaponsmith would craft all the sub componets to get the pieces for making weapons/armor. So, you would end up seeing massive harvestors all over any habitable planet surface, and troops of players running Heroics for a chance to get that one schematic for their toon (P-8 Lamprey Pistols, Tusken King Backpacks, Juyo Lightsaber, and ofcourse +35 enhancers for melee/ranged weapons).

 

Not to get off topic but... damn I missed it! That game sounds awesome! My first real MMO (played WoW before it for like 40 levels, when I was 14 and thought grinding on dinosaurs was a great way to level.) was Perfect World, and end game gear was made from crafters, using mats dropped from bosses and the gear 1 tier below it. Slowest gear grind ever, spent many years loving it (until the company got evil and greedy.) Once you got your endgame gear, then you went out and beat each other up as a way to show off. The concept of Leveling/Gearing through pvp (or getting anything from it) is just... "What?" to me.

 

(Back on topic. None of this directed at the poster I'm replying to.) Which is why expertise on gear just seems silly to me. While I can understand some one should be able to "play" what they want (only pvp, only pve), I should be able to play what I want without putting in double the time (Yep, i've got a job too).

 

There are ways to balance pvp related issues without screwing with pve, and without dividing the community, that don't include Super special awesome pvp gear to cater to those who don't want "pve'ers" in their wz.

[Serel]

@ the start of the thread, ignoring the flamers i imagine featured all the way down the comment list..

Well Said

I recently hit L50 on my guardian. Im a huge Pvper, certainly pre-L50. Since L50, ive noticed that things have nosedived on the fun factor Dramatically. And i expected things to be harder - people at L50 are going to have more experience, simply put - but theres more to it. Its unbalanced. Hugely. Its no longer about skill-to-win which was what everything pre-L50 was when everyone was automatically balanced, its a story of gear-to-win. Theres a massive gulf you have to step over ( Via suffering through grinding against unkillable players ) to be able to tackle people at the level of fairness you used to when things were made Automatically fair and balanced. The stat of expertise pronounces the gear>skill difference hugely. I mean i think ive only got half the recruit's " +expertise gear" , i know it gets much better then that, andat the moment and it already gives something like +15% damage, -10% damage recieved? Hows anyone that doesnt have the same stats due to huge amounts of grinding supposed to fight someone with Double that.

im not addressing PVE much since i havent touched any of the operations yet (i imagine ill be scoffed at for my gear when i do). But PVP is now crippling to play. With the massive difference expertise makes, its easy to see why too =|

Signed by one unhappy fair player anyway

Expertise is Not needed - it contributes more bad than good at the moment. Make things fair again all everyone wants is a fair chance after all

[SirSensi]

Not to get off topic but... damn I missed it! That game sounds awesome! My first real MMO (played WoW before it for like 40 levels, when I was 14 and thought grinding on dinosaurs was a great way to level.) was Perfect World, and end game gear was made from crafters, using mats dropped from bosses and the gear 1 tier below it. Slowest gear grind ever, spent many years loving it (until the company got evil and greedy.) Once you got your endgame gear, then you went out and beat each other up as a way to show off. The concept of Leveling/Gearing through pvp (or getting anything from it) is just... "What?" to me.

 

(Back on topic. None of this directed at the poster I'm replying to.) Which is why expertise on gear just seems silly to me. While I can understand some one should be able to "play" what they want (only pvp, only pve), I should be able to play what I want without putting in double the time (Yep, i've got a job too).

 

There are ways to balance pvp related issues without screwing with pve, and without dividing the community, that don't include Super special awesome pvp gear to cater to those who don't want "pve'ers" in their wz.

 

Yeah, it was pretty awesome. But, since it was also sandbox, and the calculations required some form of engineering degree (not really, but it sure did feel like it sometimes!), it was well known for being too difficult. Others blamed bugs, and when I would hear that, I kindly directed them to go play NeoCron, then come back and tell me about the horrible bugs.

 

SWG is gone, but never forgotten.

[Vincire]

Expertise should be a flat value across all gearsets while each tier of gear simply allows you more options in customizing your other stats. Expertise should have been the wedge between PvP and PvE gear and not the god stat it's turned out to be. As it is right now, it's simply a crutch that overshadows skill.

[JeramieCrowe]

Expertise should be a flat value across all gearsets while each tier of gear simply allows you more options in customizing your other stats. Expertise should have been the wedge between PvP and PvE gear and not the god stat it's turned out to be. As it is right now, it's simply a crutch that overshadows skill.

 

If we're going to have Expertise anyway, it should actually be a flat value across all characters in your Legacy. Expertise should be about the player, not the gear.

[Doomsdaycomes]

If we're going to have Expertise anyway, it should actually be a flat value across all characters in your Legacy. Expertise should be about the player, not the gear.

 

Or, as others have pointed out, a flat rate across all players.

[khouj]

Expertise is the best thing ever to happen to pvp players - we no longer need to raid to get those 1-3 items which would give us a small advantage (or at a high level of play, massive advantage). There is no way around this flaw if pve items are not totally inferior for pvp.

 

I vote needed.

[JeramieCrowe]

Expertise is the best thing ever to happen to pvp players - we no longer need to raid to get those 1-3 items which would give us a small advantage (or at a high level of play, massive advantage). There is no way around this flaw if pve items are not totally inferior for pvp.

 

I vote needed.

 

There's no way to offer that same gear through a PvP avenue, eh? Has to be Expertise?

 

I thought we wanted PvP instead of GvG, but I digress...

[khouj]

There's no way to offer that same gear through a PvP avenue, eh? Has to be Expertise?

 

I thought we wanted PvP instead of GvG, but I digress...

Sure, if pvp gave the exact same items pve did. I'd be all for that, obviously. But it doesn't seem like that would ever be an option, though I can't really think why exactly..

[Chesty_Jake]

It's needed, again people fail to realize it's just another tiered Gear set for PVP. Accept the fact that you need to buy PVP gear and get over it.

 

Recruit Gear vs BM or War Hero gear would be no different then 126 rated gear vs Columi or Rakata... guess what you'd get pwned by the higher tiers. Stop whining because you can't pwn in that fancy Rakata gear and go buy Recruit and start filling in BM.

 

BM is so easy to get now it's insane people are complaining at all.

[deusBAAL]

Needed, totally.

 

You want to get gear from PVP, than let that be PVP gear. Should be 90% expertise on stats.

 

If you dont want expertise on gear, then remove all armor and weap rewards for PVP, else people just gonna get their PVP, because that easier to get. (not talking about faster though) You just do PVP, you get your PVP gear eventually, no matter what. That would be wrong if that gear would be topnotch PVE too, ridiculing all PVE efforts.

[Araudry]

It's not needed

maybe for ranked bg but regular bg no

 

If the best gear wasnt from pvp then ppl would be forced to raid and that would make a lot more ppl stay playing the game since a lot of ppl just enjoy pvp a little thats why so many ppl left the game imo

Edited May 2, 2012 by Araudry

[DarthKhaos]

(1)A difference is still a difference, and assuming that both players have roughly an equal level of skill, the player with -any- advantage is going to win. If there is not a way to step around that player, then the player at a disadvantage will continue to lose and his opponent will get stronger faster (until he hits his gear cap).

 

(2)Easy answer. Remove Lock outs. Get better friends.

 

(3)Though the current cost of Warhero is a place holder at the moment, the Progression is -huge.- Someone calculated at 200+ hours if you win most of the time. Even reduced, the progression could still be 100 hours and not be terrible, especially if there are alternate gearing process.

 

(4)We actually agree. If the dev's aren't willing to put in the work to equalize the progression and make it interchangeable, then in all fairness there should be a 50 pve starter set for credits, or the PvP 50 set should have been comms.

 

(5)This is the point I find rather annoying. PvP'ers (and some PvE'ers') think -playing- one aspect of the game more than the other is a proffession. End-game content includes PvP and PvE. Until they start paying you real money for PvP or PvE, you're just playing a game.

Points (1) & (3) are related. Notice it's a lot faster to gain Battle Master than War Hero. Also if you're in full Battle Master you can still beat someone in full War Hero because the gear difference isn't large. A difference isn't just a difference because when the difference isn't large then skill is the deciding factor. So a longer progression between Battle Master & War Hero isn't so bad espically with the QQing before that people don't feel the need to PvP anymore once they got all the best gear. Such a stupid mentality.

 

(2) We both know why games put in lockouts and spawn times for PvE content. To increase the progression time. Also "Get Better Friends" you make me laugh. It's like you've never delt with an MMO population before. I agree people should act differently but we all know how much A-holes are in dem parts. I'm not saying what happens is right, I think it's disgusting, I was just pointing out what would happen.

 

(5) I can only speak for myself however as pointed out earlier players are not playing X or Y anymore because there's "nothing to gain" from it. The idea of doing something for fun is alien to them. These are the people who wanted longer progression for PvP gear. People who are content locus. They get the gear and say that's it. If you had ever read some of my posts concerning competitive PvP I am all for giving everyone a set gear to go into PvP with. Your "rewards" would be used outside of the competitive ring.

 

You have to admit in every MMO when it comes to PvP & PvE gear rewards PvE gear had WAY better stats than PvP gear. So tell me this. In a game where gear does matters more and more when the difference increases why should those who pvp be placed at a disadvantage against players who don't?

[Ifrit]

needed. I don't want to have to raid to be able to pvp.

[Jadescythe]

@ the start of the thread, ignoring the flamers i imagine featured all the way down the comment list..

Well Said

I recently hit L50 on my guardian. Im a huge Pvper, certainly pre-L50. Since L50, ive noticed that things have nosedived on the fun factor Dramatically. And i expected things to be harder - people at L50 are going to have more experience, simply put - but theres more to it. Its unbalanced. Hugely. Its no longer about skill-to-win which was what everything pre-L50 was when everyone was automatically balanced, its a story of gear-to-win. Theres a massive gulf you have to step over ( Via suffering through grinding against unkillable players ) to be able to tackle people at the level of fairness you used to when things were made Automatically fair and balanced. The stat of expertise pronounces the gear>skill difference hugely. I mean i think ive only got half the recruit's " +expertise gear" , i know it gets much better then that, andat the moment and it already gives something like +15% damage, -10% damage recieved? Hows anyone that doesnt have the same stats due to huge amounts of grinding supposed to fight someone with Double that.

im not addressing PVE much since i havent touched any of the operations yet (i imagine ill be scoffed at for my gear when i do). But PVP is now crippling to play. With the massive difference expertise makes, its easy to see why too =|

Signed by one unhappy fair player anyway

Expertise is Not needed - it contributes more bad than good at the moment. Make things fair again all everyone wants is a fair chance after all

 

I think you are overestimating the difference since you just got to 50. If you are trying to PVP and don't at least have a full set of recruit gear, then you will get facerolled. Trust me when i say that it was way worse before 1.2 when fresh 50s came in with 1 piece of centurion and that was it. Things even out pretty quickly and if you are a skilled PVPer then you can still be at the top of the board regardless of gear. The difference in expertise is only about 15-20 between recruit and battlemaster gear and the same between BM and WH. Yes, this adds up over all the pieces, but your base expertise in full recruit gear should be at least 700-800 I believe, which is plenty to be competitive.

 

Just make sure you aren't trying to 1v1 the mara in full war hero gear and don't run off on your own all the time (both pieces of advice I would use regardless of gear). If you just got to 50, then you will have to play more of a supportive roll. If you're tanking, then help the healers. If you're DPS then go harrass the melee classes and make them move. And more than anything else, play the objectives (that's the whole point of WZs anyway right?). There is always something you can do that is needed for your team to be successful, even if you aren't in top notch gear. Expertise is there to reward you for doing PVP and you will gain gear fast if you keep playing.

 

If you're still having issues with PVP in recruit gear, then it may be that the people you're up against are better than you. This isn't meant as a knock against you by any means, but keep in mind that most people have been doing lvl 50 PVP for 5 months now. You don't get the luxury of learning along with everyone else, so you may need to find a group to get in with that will help you out. Talk to another guardian and see if you can get some tips (sorry, haven't played the class so I can't be that helpful). It will be rough at first for sure, but when you get the hang of PVP at 50 it can be extremely rewarding and, ultimately, has unlimited replay value.

[Genocidalx]

needed. I don't want to have to raid to be able to pvp.

 

Well, if you could use your imagination, you'd see otherwise.

 

It's definitely not needed. It was a lazy, "new" solution by developers with no foresight or reasoning abilities to create a balanced system. However, the solution is quite simple, and comes in 1 of 2 forms: Cap stats in a manageable way to create more gear versatility, or offer comparable or universal results from "grinding" (ie make the same gear obtainable through either path: PvP or PvE.) SWTOR has even less of an excuse to utilize expertise as stat due to their modding system and orange/purple armor shells. Make the gear itself secondary to the Armoring/Mods/Enhancements/Augments which can be obtained through crafting (GTN), or the commendation system they use for PvP and PvE already. Just make tiers of universally applicable gear. Remove the PvP tiers entirely. It's an ignorant system, anyway (and worse the gear LOOKS like trash to a piece).

 

Bioware is trying to harness too much control over a world that is supposed to be shaped by the players that inhabit it. If crafted items were endgame-useful, the economy would thrive and be completely self-sustaining. Removing expertise from the game and implementing my concepts would make the game superior to its current incarnation in EVERY WAY.

 

But, the point of all of this isn't the interest of PvP v PvE balance, it's about developing timesinks to keep stringing us/you along so there's the illusion of progression. It's an educated money decision on Bioware's part. They want you to keep playing, chasing the next carrot, so you're never "satisfied" with where you are. That sort of manipulation is more damning than anything else I can think of, and I will be done with it soon.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Genocidalx

[SWImara]

Sadly I'm going to go with "It is needed"

 

All those claiming expertise is just for WoW kiddies or some similarly inane catch phrase, keep in mind that we're totally playing a WoW flavored gear grind of a game. Ultimately this is the reason expertise is needed in SWTOR, all new content is going to mean new gear, new gear is our only carrot to chase and having PvE gear and PvP gear separate makes the game easier to balance in PvP without having to damage people's PvE play.

 

I'd love to see them get rid of expertise as I personally feel the system is lame and dumb, but doing so imo would require much more than a few minor system changes. It'd require a change in the basic design concepts of the game. The legacy of tiered gear, raids and "end game" is what makes stats like expertise necessary.

Edited May 2, 2012 by SWImara

[Genocidalx]

Sadly I'm going to go with "It is needed"

 

All those claiming expertise is just for WoW kiddies or some similarly inane catch phrase, keep in mind that we're totally playing a WoW flavored gear grind of a game. Ultimately this is the reason expertise is needed in SWTOR, all new content is going to mean new gear, new gear is our only carrot to chase and having PvE gear and PvP gear separate makes the game easier to balance in PvP without having to damage people's PvE play.

 

I'd love to see them get rid of expertise as I personally feel the system is lame and dumb, but doing so imo would require much more than a few minor system changes. It'd require a change in the basic design concepts of the game. The legacy of tiered gear, raids and "end game" is what makes stats like expertise necessary.

 

 

No, it is not. Read my post just above yours. It's really a very simple fix. Almost, dare I say, OBVIOUS. But it's obvious if Bioware's methods are in the best interest of the players. But, they're not. They're in the best interest of their bank account. That's all it comes down to, yet you all have convinced yourselves that it's necessary in the interest of some phantom "balance" issue.

[Angel_of_Cain]

Not needed: make the progression for PvP the same(ish) as PvE, that way Raid PvE'ers couldn't come in and roll everyone, because PvP would have the same type(ish) gear. I know, it would make PvP about skill:eek:

 

If expertise was really needed and game breaking, then it would be in pre-50 PvP as well.

[Genocidalx]

Not needed: make the progression for PvP the same(ish) as PvE, that way Raid PvE'ers couldn't come in and roll everyone, because PvP would have the same type(ish) gear. I know, it would make PvP about skill:eek:

 

If expertise was really needed and game breaking, then it would be in pre-50 PvP as well.

 

Yes, you get it!

 

Simple and elegant, is it not? But, as I said, it's not about this simple solution, it's about forcing you to grind so you keep playing and, most importantly, KEEP PAYING.

[BoMbY]

Not needed.

 

Gear with expertise should be completely reworked, of course. And the overall gear progressions would need to be adjusted. And it would be nice to have some different stats (compared to the existing PvE gear) on the reworked PvP gear, to get better options for gear combinations.

[DarthKhaos]

Not needed: make the progression for PvP the same(ish) as PvE, that way Raid PvE'ers couldn't come in and roll everyone, because PvP would have the same type(ish) gear. I know, it would make PvP about skill:eek:

 

If expertise was really needed and game breaking, then it would be in pre-50 PvP as well.

If you think the pre 50 bracket is balanced I weep for you.

Firstly the progression is not the same because the players who mostly PvP & PvE have a different idea (time wise) to progress. Also with the PvE progression content is managed for you and what gear you have determines what enemies you encounter. PvP does not have that luxury. It's going to get worse as the tiers move up.

 

In PvP you have fresh level 50's facing off with those geared out in full War Hero crafted gear with augments. You don't see fresh level 50's with crap gear facing off against the top raid. No they tackle the stuff their gear allows get the gear and move up. PvP it's a trial by fire and taking the beat down till you manage to get the Battle Master gear so that you don't get beat down by those in the Top PvP gear. The progression from Recruit to Battle Master gear is pretty fast as it should be so that PvPers have a fighting chance against those in the top gear. PvErs don't have this worry.

 

Then there's the dynamic of PvP compared to PvE.

• PvP: Ok we got 8 for each side let's tell them we're ready to go... 5/8 join. 3/8 let the timer run out, one more in queue joins in but match is going on and not stopping regardless.
  
• PvE: We got the 8 let's get this going... 2 people are AFK? Ok we'll wait for them.
  

And someone had the brilliant idea of you not getting any reward or losing valor/comms for a loss.

[Khoraji]

Not needed: make the progression for PvP the same(ish) as PvE, that way Raid PvE'ers couldn't come in and roll everyone, because PvP would have the same type(ish) gear. I know, it would make PvP about skill:eek:

 

If expertise was really needed and game breaking, then it would be in pre-50 PvP as well.

 

How would this solve anything? People with the best gear would still roll people who dont have it.

 

And you think the PvE crowd wants PvP'ers who have the same gear as them?

 

The best PvE gear should come from PvE

 

The best PvP gear should come from PvP.