Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[DarkHelsing]

+1 needed.

 

this is what the current expertise system already is!

 

I don't understand how anyone can even take up the "it is not needed" side of the argument. PvE grinders who PvP now and then should not have gear that crushes a PvP grinder's gear.

 

Expertise effectively provides a post 50 leveling track for PvP that is separate from the PvE leveling track. This is as it should be.

 

Why use Expertise when they can do all that with Bolster?

[Cruckin]

Is needed.

 

Without a PvP specific stat BiS items will all come from top end raiding thus forcing PvPer to either suffer or Raid.

[Iamsamsara]

Let's get rid of all gear, all of it, pve included. Let's get rid of raids. Let's make all encounters rock, paper, scissors.

I bet THAT game succeeds.

[Bnol]

It is needed

 

How does the 10-49 bracket function then, most players have a blast in that bracket and it doesn't use Expertise. So why have Bolster and Expertise?

 

People that do WZs in the 10-49 bracket do WZs because they want to, for fun. They level slower by doing it, and do not get gear as quickly and also have large gear gaps (between 20/40) compared to doing FPs/crafting/heroic 2/4s. That is how the bracket functions.

 

In Endgame things are different. If you had PVP and PVE gear shared then you would require one side or the other (depending on the rate of gear acquisition) to participate in something they don't want to do to acquire gear at a faster rate. Of course you could just have a generic PVP set available to all, then expertise wouldn't be needed, but that is a different discussion.

[Iamsamsara]

Again OP, I have not seen you answer the question of why raiding should allow progression gearing in order to succeed at their next level of end game and pvp should not. Please, explain why one segment is more deserving of reward vs time and one isn't?

[customkb]

Apologies, I didn't realize I needed to post my "gaming resume" in order for my "needed" vote to have had merit.

 

I'm 38 years old, I played ZORK and Oregon Trail on release. Virtually every other game worth mentioning between these titles and present ranging from First Person shooters to MMO's to Turn based Strategy. My first gaming experience was on a Coleco gaming system that my dad bought in 1972(that's older than Atari 2600, Commodore 64, and Colecovision, hell, it's a year older than me, folks). It was self contained and included such titles as Pong and Duck Hunt(the ducks where literally white squares on a black screen). It is nearly impossible to have more gaming experience than me unless you are old enough to have seen the invention of Pinball.

 

I am not even close to unique. The reality is that old farts like me are the top end of "average" gaming age these days, which means that a solid majority of posters will have gaming experience very much on par with my own.

 

Please keep in mind that our opinions are our own and are far better left on their own merits then to have attempts at interpreting them, or our backgrounds from them, taking place.

 

^ My new best friend.

[DarkHelsing]

Apologies, I didn't realize I needed to post my "gaming resume" in order for my "needed" vote to have had merit.

 

I'm 38 years old, I played ZORK and Oregon Trail on release. Virtually every other game worth mentioning between these titles and present ranging from First Person shooters to MMO's to Turn based Strategy. My first gaming experience was on a Coleco gaming system that my dad bought in 1972(that's older than Atari 2600, Commodore 64, and Colecovision, hell, it's a year older than me, folks). It was self contained and included such titles as Pong and Duck Hunt(the ducks where literally white squares on a black screen). It is nearly impossible to have more gaming experience than me unless you are old enough to have seen the invention of Pinball.

 

I am not even close to unique. The reality is that old farts like me are the top end of "average" gaming age these days, which means that a solid majority of posters will have gaming experience very much on par with my own.

 

Please keep in mind that our opinions are our own and are far better left on their own merits then to have attempts at interpreting them, or our backgrounds from them, taking place.

 

Hmm, pointless but interesting. I was born in '79, so my apologies. The extra five years you've been on this planet has made you vastly superior, I humbly bow in your presence.

 

Back to the actual topic though, my point remains solid. None of the "needed"s have stated they've played another mmo that mixed PvE gear with PvP gear, and used it as an example of why that mixing of gear progression doesn't work. No one. Not one. Not a single poster. Not one response. Not even your response quoted above.

(as of this response, anything later we will see)

 

They may have played them, they may not have, but none have used it as a statement to say "see, this is why it doesn't work". Where on the other hand, the players that have stated they've played the other mmos that mix pve gear with pvp gear have all stated it works great and have all voted to remove expertise. So I don't know why you felt you had to get bent out of shape about it... but my point is fact.

 

My conclusion is just a conclusion, and right or wrong it's mine to conclude, just like you just concluded that somehow you being born in 1974 means you got access to more MMOs then I did.

 

Anyway, this is all pointless because the following statement you made;

It is nearly impossible to have more gaming experience than me unless you are old enough to have seen the invention of Pinball.

That quote clearly indicates rational conversation is not your strong point. Because we all know age is what dictates gaming experience, and the only way to be more experienced at gaming is to be older... /sarcasm

 

 

Thanks for your vote.

Edited April 26, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Axien]

Needed.

 

Whether you reward PvP with its own gear or PvE gear - it's still gear and whatever stats are on it is largely irrelevant. However PvE gear will always exist in the game. It may not be the best measure of skill but it is a measure of accomplishment and can't generally be acquired (at level) just by continuing to participate in raids. No matter which side of the argument you're on, that needs to be countered in PvP somehow.

 

PvP'ers, generally, don't appreciate unskilled PUG raiders acting the fool in their warzones. Nor do Raiders like getting a PvP-leet in response to their call for a "geared player" who consistently wipes the team. Different gear with different stats IS something an indicator of someone's previous accomplishments in raids and participation level in PvP. You can't guarantee they actually learned something along the way, but most do.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[Philastra]

needed

[DarkHelsing]

That is not what he is saying. Do you allow people with pure utility pvp builds in you progresssion raids? No. Why should you be allowed to take a useless build into a wz?

 

That's to narrow sighted for me. The reason being, your build might suck for you in PvP, but be the exact play style for me in PvP.

 

Prior to patch 1.2, I was full BM, when I was asked on a Raid I showed up in full BM, they looked at my gear, asked about my build and they turned me down because of the PvP gear and PvP build. About 30 minutes later I got whisper asking if I could still join them anyways, to few people online, thy wanted to get it done, blah blah blah. After the raid they tried to poach me from my guild, where they were expecting something along the lines of what you just stated, they ended up with someone that knew how to play their class. I'm not gonna sugar coat it, I was working my butt off to keep up, but they bug me to join their guild now any time they catch me online.

 

That point is not to brag that I am some amazing player or something... perhaps they just all really sucked, so me looking good to them is no accomplishment... so the point is not to brag. The point is to state that my build in PvP might actually be better in PvE, it might be worse, it might be the same. So yes, I would allow them into my raid, because I'd rather judge them based on how well they play their class, not judge them because I have no idea how well they play but I don't approve of their gear.

 

We have let players into our Raids wearing level 32 greens, and they were amazing players and I poached them into our guild. We've let players into our Raids with full Rakata and booted them after the first boss because damn, re-roll or play a different game because they were horrible at this one.

 

So I don't find that as a valid argument, at all.

Edited April 26, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Isrem]

Not needed.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[Dzhokhar]

Back to the actual topic though, my point remains solid. None of the "needed"s have stated they've played another mmo that mixed PvE gear with PvP gear, and used it as an example of why that mixing of gear progression doesn't work. No one. Not one. Not a single poster. Not one response. Not even your response quoted above.

 

I played Vanilla WoW, pre-Resilience. Raiders absolutely dominated PvP because the PvP gear progression had lower stats than the PvE progression. Additionally, endgame raiding guilds had extremely strict gearing requirements for new members. These requirements amounted to all best-in-slot pieces available without doing whatever Raid they were working on clearing at that time. If Blizzard had resolved the imbalance between Raid gear and PvP gear simply by buffing the PvP gear, I 100% guarantee you that endgame guilds would have started requiring PvP gear for new members. This is why people are saying Expertise is necessary and there are MILLIONS of people who have had first hand experience with this exact situation through Vanilla WoW.

[DarkHelsing]

Again OP, I have not seen you answer the question of why raiding should allow progression gearing in order to succeed at their next level of end game and pvp should not. Please, explain why one segment is more deserving of reward vs time and one isn't?

 

The reason you haven't seen me answer this, until now, is because the question holds no value to anything I've stated. I've clearly stated that "both" Raiding and PvP should allow end game progression.

 

So that's why you haven't seen an answer, because the question holds no relevance to anything I've stated.

[DarkHelsing]

I played Vanilla WoW, pre-Resilience. Raiders absolutely dominated PvP because the PvP gear progression had lower stats than the PvE progression. Additionally, endgame raiding guilds had extremely strict gearing requirements for new members. These requirements amounted to all best-in-slot pieces available without doing whatever Raid they were working on clearing at that time. If Blizzard had resolved the imbalance between Raid gear and PvP gear simply by buffing the PvP gear, I 100% guarantee you that endgame guilds would have started requiring PvP gear for new members. This is why people are saying Expertise is necessary and there are MILLIONS of people who have had first hand experience with this exact situation through Vanilla WoW.

 

You are right, WoW had that jacked up. But wrong approach to the reasoning...

 

Let me attempt an example, fictitious numbers and what not, just to help illustrate what I am meaning:

 

If it takes an average Raider 1 hour to get a piece of gear

If it takes an average PvPer 1 hour to get a piece of gear

Both pieces of gear are the same.

So someone shows up to the Raid in that gear, good to go

So someone shows up to PvP in that gear, good to go

WoW allowed Raiders gear that was beyond what PvPers could get = wrong approach

WoW allowed PvPers an easier average time to get gear than Raiders = wrong approach

 

So if the best gear in the game takes a month for the average player to get - why do people care how the players spend their month trying to get it!?

Edited April 26, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[xxdragonragexx]

This is stupid, the OP doesn't like expertise and he is obviously inflating his numbers. I've played a lot of MMO games, from MMOPVP, MMOFPS, MMORPG, and F2P games.

Expertise is needed for this game.

 

Expertise is not gear progression. It is a pvp stat. Whether there is expertise on this game or not, gear will always matter because there is gear progression. We have tier 1, 2, 3, and etc. But to answer the OP why it is needed. It's main purpose is to separate (PvE and PvP) for players and for monetary gain for the company. I will even start at the beginning.

 

There is gear progression in this game so that players will grind it. It is called a time sink. A time sink is an age old idea and mechanic to retain subscription money for players that reach max level. Unfortunately, content cannot be created fast enough to keep players entertained plus happy every month due to lack of resources and money from the company so a time sink is invented. Keep in mind Bioware took 7 years just to create reasonable content for 1-50. A time sink for this game is called gear progression. It is very important in order for this game to keep getting $15 x 1.7 million per month.

 

Separating PvE and PvP is a win/win scenario for Bioware and why Expertise or Pvp stat is needed.

 

- If there is no expertise or pvp stat, players can grind gear from pvp and pve. This will definitely decrease the time to gear up which is fine for game companies since they can decrease commendations, valor and increase the grind. But the main problem is that Bioware spent 2-3 months (time), lots of money, & resources in creating a dungeon. If players can get pvp gear then they will get max gear through pvp and skip all of the dungeons except for the hardest one. This is going to happen because pve gear progression or dungeons have a lock out timer to prevent players from getting pve gear too quickly (time sink). But this lockout timer can get bypassed by getting gear through pvp. It maybe great for players but Bioware is definitely going to lose money cause they cannot create dungeons every month. Players will /quit or cancel their account every time they get max gear then wait for a major content patch before subscribing again.

 

- For pvp games like Warhammer, Daoc, and etc, this is fine because they don't have a big PvE or raiding playerbase. Daoc and Warhammer don't even come up with new dungeons every year. Only in expansions. But for SWTOR, and World Of Warcraft, they need to create dungeons and PvE content every 3 months or lose their pve or raiding playerbase.

 

- PvP players don't really care if there is a pvp stat or not. If the best gear can be attained through pvp, then they don't care if raiders have the same gear as them. It will be about skill. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen in a PvE game like swtor. If there is no pvp stat, raiders will obviously will be given the Best Gear so that they will have an incentive to raid or dungeon crawl.

 

TLDR: PvP stat is needed in a PvE game like swtor to keep raiders happy and subscription money flowing. Expertise or PvP stat is created to separate PvP and PvE Gear so that players do not skip dungeons that Bioware created. So that players do not burn through content so fast that they /quit every month until a new major content patch gets released which is roughly 3-4 months.

[Dzhokhar]

You are right, WoW had that jacked up. But wrong approach to the reasoning...

 

Let me attempt an example, fictitious numbers and what not, just to help illustrate what I am meaning:

 

If it takes an average Raider 1 hour to get a piece of gear

If it takes an average PvPer 1 hour to get a piece of gear

Both pieces of gear are the same.

So someone shows up to the Raid in that gear, good to go

So someone shows up to PvP in that gear, good to go

WoW allowed Raiders gear that was beyond what PvPers could get = wrong approach

WoW allowed PvPers an easier average time to get gear than Raiders = wrong approach

 

So if the best gear in the game takes a month for the average player to get - why do people care how the players spend their month trying to get it!?

You can't structure it like that.

 

Raiders have a lot of limitations beyond time that don't currently factor into PvP gear progression in any game that I'm aware of.

-Raiders actually complete content/win in order to get gear.

-Raiders need to play in the equivalent of 16-man premades in order to even attempt their content (it was 40-man in Vanilla WoW).

-Raiders can only do each raid once per week.

 

The way PvP gear progression works, all you have to do is play 100hrs/week and gear up like crazy. You don't have to worry about coordinating your play time with other people, actually being any good, or artificial limits on the number of items you can get in a fixed amount of time on the calendar.

 

The only way I can see making PvP gear acquisition anything like PvE gear acquisition would be to have gear be rewarded in a once weekly, single-elimination tournament between premade teams. In this tournament, all members of your team would get new bracers for making it to the second round, belts for getting to the 3rd round, boots for the 4th round, etc. It would need to be impossible to get the chest armor/mainhand without winning the tournament outright. Any progression short of this would be easier than Raid progression (and/or less time consuming in terms of calendar time for people who can play all day).

 

Unfortunately, the progression I just described would be unacceptable because people actually expect a chance of earning their gear at some point. Fundamentally, this is different from PvE progression because you actually have to beat other players. It's effectively zero-sum, where only one team can win (and can thus block other teams from winning). This is distinct from PvE because in PvE you only have to beat the computer, not other players who are trying to get the same gear you're going for.

 

Because of the fundamental differences between PvP and PvE, it would be impossible to equalize the progression the way you'd like. The solution is to have separate progression.

 

Additionally, the fact that PvP gear isn't any good for PvE shouldn't matter to you anyway. You just have to go through the PvE progression like everyone else. It's not like you're only allowed to have one set of gear. Just because you have War Hero gear doesn't mean you can't go out and run hard mode Flashpoints, and it really shouldn't let you skip over those flashpoints directly to nightmare mode Operations.

[DarkHelsing]

This is stupid, the OP doesn't like expertise and he is obviously inflating his numbers..

 

You have the access to count up the votes just like everyone else does......

[DarkHelsing]

You can't structure it like that.

 

Raiders have a lot of limitations beyond time that don't currently factor into PvP gear progression in any game that I'm aware of.

-Raiders actually complete content/win in order to get gear.

-Raiders need to play in the equivalent of 16-man premades in order to even attempt their content (it was 40-man in Vanilla WoW).

-Raiders can only do each raid once per week.

 

The way PvP gear progression works, all you have to do is play 100hrs/week and gear up like crazy. You don't have to worry about coordinating your play time with other people, actually being any good, or artificial limits on the number of items you can get in a fixed amount of time on the calendar.

 

The only way I can see making PvP gear acquisition anything like PvE gear acquisition would be to have gear be rewarded in a once weekly, single-elimination tournament between premade teams. In this tournament, all members of your team would get new bracers for making it to the second round, belts for getting to the 3rd round, boots for the 4th round, etc. It would need to be impossible to get the chest armor/mainhand without winning the tournament outright. Any progression short of this would be easier than Raid progression (and/or less time consuming in terms of calendar time for people who can play all day).

 

Unfortunately, the progression I just described would be unacceptable because people actually expect a chance of earning their gear at some point. Fundamentally, this is different from PvE progression because you actually have to beat other players. It's effectively zero-sum, where only one team can win (and can thus block other teams from winning). This is distinct from PvE because in PvE you only have to beat the computer, not other players who are trying to get the same gear you're going for.

 

Because of the fundamental differences between PvP and PvE, it would be impossible to equalize the progression the way you'd like. The solution is to have separate progression.

 

Additionally, the fact that PvP gear isn't any good for PvE shouldn't matter to you anyway. You just have to go through the PvE progression like everyone else. It's not like you're only allowed to have one set of gear. Just because you have War Hero gear doesn't mean you can't go out and run hard mode Flashpoints, and it really shouldn't let you skip over those flashpoints directly to nightmare mode Operations.

 

The points you are indicating are how WoW work and how they are working SWTOR. I understand the comparison, and I understand your point.

 

That being stated, it can be done, it is being done, and it is being done well in dozens of other mmos. So stating it cannot be structured like that is completely false, because many other games structure it exactly like that. That's what I'm pointing out here. It can done, it is being done all time, and being done well. Following the flow of WoW for lots of things is great, but things like PvP - WoW is not the best example to use.

[Donkeyhacks]

Needed. not even gonna explain why.

if u cant work it out.. then you dont belong in the pvp section

[xxdragonragexx]

If it takes an average Raider 1 hour to get a piece of gear

If it takes an average PvPer 1 hour to get a piece of gear

Both pieces of gear are the same.

So someone shows up to the Raid in that gear, good to go

So someone shows up to PvP in that gear, good to go

WoW allowed Raiders gear that was beyond what PvPers could get = wrong approach

WoW allowed PvPers an easier average time to get gear than Raiders = wrong approach

 

Raiders can get max gear in a day but they are prevented by a lock out timer. They cannot go into a dungeon and farm until the lockout timer is reset. You cannot say the time sink for gear progression for PvE and PvP should be equal. It is because pvpers do not get a lockout timer. Like I said, in a PvE game like this, they don't want raiders to get their gear through pvp and bypass the dungeons they created that took them 3-4 months to create.

 

The points you are indicating are how WoW work and how they are working SWTOR. I understand the comparison, and I understand your point.

 

That being stated, it can be done, it is being done, and it is being done well in dozens of other mmos. So stating it cannot be structured like that is completely false, because many other games structure it exactly like that. That's what I'm pointing out here. It can done, it is being done all time, and being done well. Following the flow of WoW for lots of things is great, but things like PvP - WoW is not the best example to use.

 

No it is not being done. Show me a game that releases dungeons every 3 months that do not have expertise stat. There isn't any. You don't know anything about pve which is why it is hard for you to understand why there is an expertise stat.

Edited April 26, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[sharkfinsix]

Needed but the difference between Recruit to Warhero should be 5/5% ish stats difference. (not 5% affect difference)

 

I.e. if Recruit is 800 expertise then BM should be 850 and WH should be 900

[DarkHelsing]

Raiders can get max gear in a day but they are prevented by a lock out timer. They cannot go into a dungeon and farm until the lockout timer is reset. You cannot say the time sink for gear progression for PvE and PvP should be equal. It is because pvpers do not get a lockout timer. Like I said, in a PvE game like this, they don't want raiders to get their gear through pvp and bypass the dungeons they created that took them 3-4 months to create..

 

Take a step back and look at the point.

 

If it takes 1 month to get fully geared via raiding for the average player - then it takes them 1 month to get fully geared, with all the lockouts and weeklies and whatever, 1 month is 1 month.

 

versus

 

If it takes 1 month to get full geared via pvp for the average player - then it takes them 1 month to get fully geared, with all the ques and dailies and whatever, 1 month is 1 month.

[olagaton]

Needed.

 

Is it needed to separate PvP from PvE? Yes, absolutely. Or some system is needed to do so.

 

Is it the best system available? Probably not, but until a valid alternate (haven't seen one yet) is brought to light, it's the best for the moment.

Edited April 26, 2012 by olagaton