Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Roccobb]

If you're being hunted by mobs of the opposing faction...thank your lucky stars your on a populated server!

 

It was a LIMITED TIME EVENT that was not tested for every mechanic. You died a few times to people that noticed, for this brief period, that some people who weren't paying attention may be killable.

 

Its not griefing. Its just not. None of those players should be punished for taking advantage of a mechanic that Bioware put in the game. It didn't take any mods, or system exploits, or anything like that. All it required was that you got infected by someone with who flagged you, didn't let yourself unflag, and got killed.

 

Not a single one of those people should be punished.

 

but when you respawn at a medic and they are right there to greet you, they should be punished. That made the game unplayable for that character for me. First, they flagged me by exploding on me while I was fighting a mob. Then they killed me. OK, ha ha ha. No repairs cost, no big deal. But then they were there to meet me at the medic and killed me 2 times in a row. But according to customer service, that is OK, working as normal. It should not be OK. I had to log off that player because of it. So yes, punish them. Punish them hard. 1 week suspension is too light in my opinion....

[CDSzafraniec]

It spoils the game for me when I can't win a warzone. Thats a form of griefing?

 

It spoils the game for me when someone tags the world boss before me...griefing?

 

It spoils the game when someone mentions a plot point in general that I havn't seen yet...griefing?

 

It spoils the game for me when someone else wins an item I rolled on and wanted...griefing?

[tehsaturn]

^ Problem?

[CDSzafraniec]

but when you respawn at a medic and they are right there to greet you, they should be punished. That made the game unplayable for that character for me. First, they flagged me by exploding on me while I was fighting a mob. Then they killed me. OK, ha ha ha. No repairs cost, no big deal. But then they were there to meet me at the medic and killed me 2 times in a row. But according to customer service, that is OK, working as normal. It should not be OK. I had to log off that player because of it. So yes, punish them. Punish them hard. 1 week suspension is too light in my opinion....

 

See, you got corpse camped. Thats dirty pool, and I do feel for you. Thats a gripe on a pvp server as well as a pve server, and you have an argument that this is griefing (though there are those that woudl disagree). I see a world of difference between your experience, and what the OP is going on about.

Edited April 24, 2012 by CDSzafraniec
Typos

[Kindara]

Yes, so easy to avoid... Buy a vaccine, die. Buy it again. While fighting an elite mob, somebody running up to you and exploding is not avoidable.

 

As to why I am still talking about it, again, I hope they take these issues into consideration. They said during the interview on mos eisley that this event will never be repeated. However, if any future events have similar mechanics, they do need to look into making it better. Hence why I am still putting my input out there.

 

If your dying alot maybe your doing something you should figure out what your doing so wrong...I one time when I had a vaccine on and that was simply from taking a short cut across the terrain and the fall was just a smidge to long and i died.

[Roccobb]

See, you got corpse camped. Thats dirty pool, and I do feel for you. Thats a gripe on a pvp server as well as a pve server, and you have an argument that this is griefing (though there are those that woudl disagree). I see a world of difference between your experience, and what the OP is going on about.

 

See my suggestion earlier in the thread. One shot kill champions next to every medic. I have said it in other threads as well.... I can't see how it is fun for 2 50's to chase after an unguilded level 25 character and grief them. At least one in a guild can call for help and maybe start a real fight....

 

So yes, please, one shot kills!!!!

[Mathias_Varr]

I saw a lot of threads complaining about getting infected, and earlier in this one included. The PvP flagging thing probably was an oversight and a likely an exploit, as many of us agree. But let's look at the plague itself.

 

The only detriment to having it, mechanically, was two-fold. The first would be that every once in a while while infected, you would be stunned for a short time while it did puking animation. All classes have an ability what would "unstun" you and and cancel the animation. The second effect was the randomly exploding while feverish. This caused no durability damage to your gear, but was otherwise treated as a death but you got the DNA samples, that you could then turn in for items or sell for 5k or so each on fleet.

 

If you didn't want to be infected, you had three courses of action. The first was to buy the vaccine for 2k credits. The second is to commit suicide, and depending how you did it may or may not cause durability damage. The third option was to just ask someone for the vaccine. I know that once I figured out it was beneficial to me to be infected, I'd just give away the vaccines I'd gotten as quest items.

 

As there are really no drawbacks to being infected, and the fact you could make 25k credits easily from one death, would pay for 12 vaccines, means a lot of the whining was just that.

 

Onto griefing, world PvP isn't greifing. If you are flagged, you can choose to risk being attacked by going about your business as normal, or you could play it safe and wait out the 5 minute timer. And as to other players flagging themselves and then getting caught in your AoEs to flag you, a little situational awareness goes a long way. You choose to hit that AoE. They didn't make you do it.

 

Stay alert, stay alive.

[Drakkip]

See, you got corpse camped. Thats dirty pool, and I do feel for you. Thats a gripe on a pvp server as well as a pve server, and you have an argument that this is griefing (though there are those that woudl disagree). I see a world of difference between your experience, and what the OP is going on about.

 

You say dirty pool, and I say using an unintended game mechanic to flag opposing players on a PVE server.

 

Your dirty pool is griefing in my book. Although I was not personally affected by this, I still think it is wrong and at the very least needs to be addressed in game design.

 

Like having a check-box in the options that lets you permanently opt out of PvP content on a PVE server. You can't heal or buff flagged players at all unless you uncheck it.

 

I don't get how people can defend that on a PVE server someone flagging you by exploding on you and without your consent/action at all conforms the written description of a PVE server /boggle

[mathisk]

Thing is, it is not just one's idea of Griefing that is critical; it is Biowares. Maybe they do or do not see other forms of spoiled play as Griefing, but they need to be made aware that these folks do see their play as spoiled.

 

And if even a single form of Griefing is left unchecked, then it may become worse. And based on the incidents seen in this first Event, it likely will degrade even more.

 

The thing is... If they fix the unwanted PvP flagging issue for the next event, the main form of "griefing" will go away.

 

It doesn't matter how you define griefing. What matters is that you properly inform Bioware of what you feel is the "root, fixable cause of the griefing" so that they can evaluate it and see if it needs to be fixed. If you are vague and say "the plague event allowed people to grief others" then Bioware will fix the problem by not having any more events like this. But if you can point to something that was the basis for the griefing, then Bioware has a real chance to fix the problem.

 

In this case, and imo, the main cause of griefing during this event was the fact that an enabled PvP flag setting could be transfered from player to player along with the plague infection. The solution would be for bioware to change the infection mechanic an not allow the infector's PvP setting to be imposed on the infectee. That would solve nearly all of the griefing associated with this event.

Edited April 24, 2012 by mathisk

[Roccobb]

You say dirty pool, and I say using an unintended game mechanic to flag opposing players on a PVE server.

 

Your dirty pool is griefing in my book. Although I was not personally affected by this, I still think it is wrong and at the very least needs to be addressed in game design.

 

Like having a check-box in the options that lets you permanently opt out of PvP content on a PVE server. You can't heal or buff flagged players at all unless you uncheck it.

 

I don't get how people can defend that on a PVE server someone flagging you by exploding on you and without your consent/action at all conforms the written description of a PVE server /boggle

 

I think he was talking more about the person chasing me down at the medic and killing me over and over again.... nothing about the plague.... Except that is how I got flagged to begin with.

[Saurakk]

The thing is... If they fix the unwanted PvP flagging issue for the next event, the main form of "griefing" will go away.

 

That is the main (and only in my opinion) point they need to address in future events.

[va_wanderer]

All Bioware had to do is have some Elite Containment Soldiers patrol the Space Station and take out anyone who is infected.... This would of kept the Space Station free of the disease and discourage players from camping on the station and provide a safe zone....

 

Their other mistake was they should of made the serum free instead of charging 2k credits.....

 

Pretty simple solution but as usually over looked by Bioware....

 

Actually, the problem was they made the vectoring more PvP than PvE.

 

We should have had random NPC's ghoul out, jump on players and tear the hearts out of players on Fleet (no repair cost, mind you) while on Fleet, and then have a containment squad spawn and gun down the NPC in question. Players that weren't killed would of course be infected if unvaccinated. Likewise when someone exploded on Fleet, it should have also summoned a containment squad- who would then of course gun down anyone who was Feverish (obviously infected) in turn.

 

Because I'm sick of people going "Waaah, we should be able to opt out of world events."

 

Opting out of world events to me is like saying "I want to opt out of dealing with (insert game mechanic here)." The only difference is that world events are temporary. You can't opt out of using Force for your Jedi or Sith, you can't opt out of falling over when you run out of health. It is part of the world. Deal with it. Get infected and die, spend credits on vaccine, hide on your ship, whatever- but you don't "opt out". You deal with it.

 

Yes, I'm sorry that the world event upsets your precious schedules. I do think that there should have been more of reaction to the (obvious) cycle of infection on Fleet, and I expect that next time said reactions will be more energetic from the devs. But the game needs those chaotic injections to remain strong and vital, rather than repetitive, mediocre, and dull.

[Malastare]

Never had Wamp Fever; they do not hang around on the Fleet. I generally know where those vermin are to be found, and if I desire, may get a vaccine to prevent the disease.

 

But, you see, you're not actually arguing about it being Griefing. You're defending your stance by saying that you felt it was unavoidable, or that one is more common than the other, or that you understand one better than the other, or that the source of the action was a player not an NPC, despite the fact that the results is nearly identical. All of those statements are completely orthogonal to the topic of griefing.

 

By definition (even yours), griefing is intentionally degrading someone else's game experience. It shouldn't matter how rare the event is, or where it occurs, or what can be done to avoid it. Griefing is griefing no matter who does it or how often it happens or if steps can be taken to avoid it.

 

The part that you're refusing to see is that griefing is more than just imposing some situation the player doesn't want. People in Warzones or PvP matches don't want to lose. Having one team defeat the other isn't griefing. Defeating another player in open-world PvP is not griefing. Having one guild totally faceroll another guild is not griefing. Repeatedly losing on item rolls does not mean you're being griefed. Getting repeatedly under-cut on the GTN does not qualify as being griefed. Just because you don't enjoy something or were annoyed by some situation doesn't mean its griefing.

 

Griefing requires motivation that comes from outside the game: it is not an action done by a character to another character, but by a player to another player. Thus, while I am annoyed by other players who repeatedly stun me, it's not griefing. It is just one character using a game mechanic against my character. As much as I might dislike the idea of interrupts and stuns, I don't get to opt out of game mechanics simply because I dislike them.

 

When you play a game, you are implicitly agreeing to accept the limitations of game rules and accept that you will be subject to game mechanics. When I play SWTOR, I accept that critical hits will occur. That means that sometimes, without warning, I will be hit much harder than I would have expected. Complaining about this is stupid. It is a game mechanic. It's well known. I don't get to demand that I be made immune to critical hits because I don't like the idea. I also accept that other players exist. They may buy items from the GTN before I get a chance to. They may grab grab chests before I arrive. They may get better rolls on item drops. I can't complain about these, either, because the fact that other players exist is part of the game design.

 

The Rakghoul Plague is a game mechanic.

The Rakghoul Plague was supposed to spread from player to player.

The Rakghoul Plague was designed as a feature of the "universe" not any particular location

The Rakghoul Plague did not infect anyone who was not supposed to be infected according to published game rules.

 

Thus: The Rakghoul Plague is part of the game you chose to play.

 

Essentially, the issue here is that the game rules changed and you didn't like them. Since you didn't get much traction by saying "I dislike this feature" you tried calling it "griefing". Up to that point, I can support you, but the moment you start redefining words to try and make your propaganda more convincing, I'm going to call you out.

 

It's not griefing, and you've irreparably harmed your argument by forcing this issue.

[VoidJustice]

I didnt notice any griefing going on, and I play on a PVP server.

 

oddly we seemed to be immune to the griefing on pvp servers...

 

However, carebears deem a cold stare as griefing.

[Saurakk]

oddly we seemed to be immune to the griefing on pvp servers...

 

However, carebears deem a cold stare as griefing.

 

Yes...it IS very odd that those on a PvP server cannot be flagged for PvP by someone else...hmmm...very strange indeed.

[Rkyukon]

I agree. The vaccine was present, but the involuntary PvP flag should absolutely never happen on a PvE server. If mechanics are in place to force players on a PvE server into PvP, then the description of PvE servers should be changed to reflect that.

 

The PvP flagging in the event worked like this: If player A is infected and flagged, and explodes infecting player B, then player B becomes flagged.

 

Also: If player B tries to deflag, being infected while flagged counts as engaging in PvP, even if you just stand in a corner, which disables the timer for dropping the PvP status. So, player B has to go get the vaccine before they can initiate the 5 minute wait to drop the PvP status.

 

Buying vaccine to prevent being infected by other players was an intended part of the event. I don';t think being flagged for PvP on a PvE server was an intended part of the event, and should be corrected before any future events take place.

 

I cant disagree with anything here in this post... But I have to admit I had so much fun helping our imps out last night

and clearing the pubs out of the area!! Maybe in the future they can make it or one like it where they say if you

praticipate in this event you have a chance to be flagged for pvp so do it at own risk. I think that would be a good work around and then those of us who enjoyed the event could still do it and those who didnt dont have to. Idk just a thought heh

[joeypesci]

I didnt notice any griefing going on, and I play on a PVP server.

 

Same. RP PvP server.

 

Wasn't really interested in the invent, got infected a few times but didn't bother me. Sold the DNA on last night for nice profit and one of the gems I got with the DNA.

 

On last night there was even a mass Imp group at the JAWA vendor. I destealthed my Jedi but they all left us Republics alone to use the Jawa.

[Urael]

Because I'm sick of people going "Waaah, we should be able to opt out of world events."

 

Opting out of world events to me is like saying "I want to opt out of dealing with (insert game mechanic here)." The only difference is that world events are temporary. You can't opt out of using Force for your Jedi or Sith, you can't opt out of falling over when you run out of health. It is part of the world. Deal with it. Get infected and die, spend credits on vaccine, hide on your ship, whatever- but you don't "opt out". You deal with it.

 

Yes, I'm sorry that the world event upsets your precious schedules. I do think that there should have been more of reaction to the (obvious) cycle of infection on Fleet, and I expect that next time said reactions will be more energetic from the devs. But the game needs those chaotic injections to remain strong and vital, rather than repetitive, mediocre, and dull.

 

There are enough credit sinks already. Adding yet another temporary credit sink is not welcomed. Not every one is rich. 2K each day over the corse of the event is that much money you couldn'ts save for something else you want in the game that is already OVERPRICED (again not everyone is rich).

 

The vaccine should have been free, waiting for you in your mailbox and persistant thru dead. Those that want to participate don't use the vaccine those that don't use the persistant free vaccine ... nuff said. A vaccine that only works for 6 hours means that the dease in question is an extreemly virulent strain and tbh would continue to mutate even more rapidly eventually making it so there would be NO vaccine that would work. This event was SO poorly done from a story psychology (behavior of participants), story technology (how viruses actually work), story politics ( how the governments would have reacted), etc. This was just a fail event overall from writing persective.

 

And I should have to pay anything in time and treasure for something I don't want to participate in. It doesn't hurt those that want to participate if I don't. Guess what if there are more that don't want to participate it will send a message to the devs about what actually works and what doesn't. Forced particiaption takes out the data point of how the event was recieved.

 

This was a crappy week in gaming history from my PoV. It was a black mark against SWTOR. Fleets were extra laggy (pop off my class elevator from my ship to have eleventybillion people in front of the elevator lagging me down to 1 fps REEEEEEAAAALLLLL fun cause they have a circle-splode-jerk session), having to watchout for some yahoo trying to infect me and trigger the pvp exploit ... yeah reeeeeeaaaaalllll fun ..... having to put charaters on hold ( depending on where they were in their story) to play other characters that weren't a priority at the moment yeah REEEAAAAALLLLL fun ....

 

But hey ... this game is SUPPOSED to be "play your way" there was nothing play your way about it for me this past week as I had to modify how I played to get anything done. But I am not going to be like the rest of the entitiled kiddies on these forums that demand free time or threat to quit because I had to endure some clitch or change. I learned alot from the experience I hope BW did too. I hope we see events like this in the future but with corrections based upon using these forums as a lesson learned. I just wish they would freaking comment on what we have written about this fail event.

[Malastare]

Okay, let's try to clear some things up that people still can't seem to quite catch on to:

 

1: Being flagged for PvP on a PvE server when you didn't want to is bad. Everyone agrees on this.

2: Being flagged for PvP because you infected someone else, or they infected you, should be regarded as a bug. Virtually everyone agrees on this.

3: Being corpse camped (ie: camping the nearest med station) is poor sportsmanship. The majority of people agree on this, and those who don't are pretty hardcore PvPers and not really relevant in this primarily PvE discussion.

4: Bioware intended players to spread the Rakghoul Plague from one player to another. Virtually everyone agrees on this.

5: Spreading the Rakghoul Plague to another player is griefing. Pretty much only the OP is claiming this.

 

So, while I support giving more visibility to the PvP flagging issue, it's really already been sorted out. I don't think anyone is fighting about this. Nor do the majority believe that corpse camping is cool.

 

So... what are we arguing about?

[Drakkip]

Okay, let's try to clear some things up that people still can't seem to quite catch on to:

 

1: Being flagged for PvP on a PvE server when you didn't want to is bad. Everyone agrees on this.

2: Being flagged for PvP because you infected someone else, or they infected you, should be regarded as a bug. Virtually everyone agrees on this.

3: Being corpse camped (ie: camping the nearest med station) is poor sportsmanship. The majority of people agree on this, and those who don't are pretty hardcore PvPers and not really relevant in this primarily PvE discussion.

4: Bioware intended players to spread the Rakghoul Plague from one player to another. Virtually everyone agrees on this.

5: Spreading the Rakghoul Plague to another player is griefing. Pretty much only the OP is claiming this.

 

So, while I support giving more visibility to the PvP flagging issue, it's really already been sorted out. I don't think anyone is fighting about this. Nor do the majority believe that corpse camping is cool.

 

So... what are we arguing about?

 

I am ready to argue... one sec...

 

1) Hmmmm agree

2) Hmmmm agree

3) hmmmm agree

4) hmmmm agree

5) hmmmm agree

Summation paragraph) ..hmmm... generally agree

 

Ok let's fight! wait a second...

Edited April 24, 2012 by Drakkip

[Malastare]

Ok let's fight! wait a second...

 

No! Let's wait four seconds! Grr!!!! You're stupid for wanting to only wait one second! Arr!!!

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

just make PVE servers be truly PVE. remove flagging entirely. that would be hilarious.

[Calsetes]

oddly we seemed to be immune to the griefing on pvp servers...

 

However, carebears deem a cold stare as griefing.

 

I'll tell you what - next time there's an event that lets me somehow become immune to PvP on a PvP server, I'll be sure to shoot snide remarks your way when you complain about someone circumventing the rules of the server as set forth by Bioware.

 

Most (not all, but most) of the complaints of griefing during the event was on PvE servers when people used the plague "explosion" to flag other players for PvP unwillingly, which allowed the rest of said faction's flagged players to kill you when you were now flagged. That was, I'm sure, an unintended bug with the plague's mechanics, as it was mentioned nowhere in any official notes for the event that a flagged player could "infect" you for PvP. I mean, how many times do you see people shooting each other for sneezing on them by accident?

[Drakkip]

No! Let's wait four seconds! Grr!!!! You're stupid for wanting to only wait one second! Arr!!!

 

How about I come up to 1.8 seconds? You heard the expert I might get 4 seconds at auction and I still need to make a couple of seconds profit. That's my top seconds, best I can do...

[Malastare]

I mean, how many times do you see people shooting each other for sneezing on them by accident?

 

I take it you're not from Baltimore...