Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Rhizoprionodon]

I don't think you fully understand the issue. On a PVE server, if a flagged player of an opposing faction exploded on you, two things happened.

 

1) You got the plague.

2) You became flagged for PVP.

 

#1 is perfectly fine, IMO. #2, flagging someone for PVP against their wishes, is not fine. It's an exploit pure and simple. People used it is a way to force someone to be flagged for PVP so they could their friends could gank them.

 

I have no issue with the plague spreading through explosion. But a person should not have been flagged for PVP due to it.

 

There is so much misconception surrounding PvP and the virus. If someone exploded on you, you were not flagged for PvP.

 

If you were flagged for PvP on a PvE server you did one of 4 things:

1) toggled your flag on

2) went through a lawless zone

3) got exploited by a player with their flag on by using an AoE while the loser was stealthed and stalking you for the express purpose of forcing you into PvP.

4) You joined a group with a player who was flagged for PvP

 

This event highlighted several issue with PvP on PvE servers. I think the best solution would be to make it so that those with their flag off can not attack a flagged player. This will prevent exploitation by gankers, since stealthing and stalking a player would not lead to them joining PvP. Also, remove the issue where joining a group with someone who is flagged automatically flags you (I accidently flagged a guildie that way which led to both of us being ganked by level 50s until we called in our guild members to clean them out).

 

Forcing a player on a PvE into PvP when you are such a high level that they can't even hurt you, and then killing them every single time they res for an hour is griefing. Exploding on someone so that they get the rakghoul virus, which doesn't harm them, is removable, gives you rewards when you explode, and doesn't damage equipment? - Not griefing.

[amantheil]

There is so much misconception surrounding PvP and the virus. If someone exploded on you, you were not flagged for PvP.

 

If you were flagged for PvP on a PvE server you did one of 4 things:

1) toggled your flag on

2) went through a lawless zone

3) got exploited by a player with their flag on by using an AoE while the loser was stealthed and stalking you for the express purpose of forcing you into PvP.

4) You joined a group with a player who was flagged for PvP

 

This event highlighted several issue with PvP on PvE servers. I think the best solution would be to make it so that those with their flag off can not attack a flagged player. This will prevent exploitation by gankers, since stealthing and stalking a player would not lead to them joining PvP. Also, remove the issue where joining a group with someone who is flagged automatically flags you (I accidently flagged a guildie that way which led to both of us being ganked by level 50s until we called in our guild members to clean them out).

 

Forcing a player on a PvE into PvP when you are such a high level that they can't even hurt you, and then killing them every single time they res for an hour is griefing. Exploding on someone so that they get the rakghoul virus, which doesn't harm them, is removable, gives you rewards when you explode, and doesn't damage equipment? - Not griefing.

 

I know that someone exploding on you didn't automatically flag you for PvP, but it's my understanding that if the person who exploded was already flagged, then it became a version of the third item you mentioned - an AoE exploit that flagged people in error.

[Roccobb]

Hi OP,

 

You asked for constructive feedback so I would like to provide some. FTR I play on a PvP Server and as such had zer

 

 

All in all the only instance I can see from all of these is if whilst minding their business on a PvE server getting some questing done, a group (2+) of toons from the other faction deliberately chased another player round the map trying to infect and gank them. The only way of avoiding this would have been to keep running for as long as it took for them all to pause and explode, however good timing on their part could keep this chase up for hours. I agree this would class as Harrassment/griefing.

 

If anyone did experience that siuation then I fully support you for raising a ticket and I hope Biware would have responded to that particular situation with action

 

.

 

All other instances I feel are not griefing or harrasment and should be left alone.

 

Regards

Wolf

 

And that is what happened to me twice. They made me flag, killed me, then met me at the medical center to kill me again. When I reported, csr said, working as intended, nothing to complain about. I had to log off that character, and stop playing him because I could do nothing, but it is working as intended. It is not the game that will ever make me leave. It is customer service.

[Elhanan]

That right there is your problem my friend. You wanted to play solo, you and those others wanted to specifically play with eachother and no one else. The event focused around a rampant infection running through the galaxy and others infected people. The only way you getting exploded on or infected could be considered griefing is if someone had followed you around and no matter where you went that same person was there trying to infect you and explode all over you. If that wasn't the case you were the victim of an MMO game mechanic...

 

Might I suggest a single player game with a co-op option, like say Diablo III, might be more your style...

 

Thanks, but disliked Diablo the first version.

 

Yes; some actually wish to play solo, or with friends. While this may surprise some, it really should not. And when we go out of the way to play on a PvE server, go to Rest Zones, and expect to gain permission before being attacked in any form; would say that it violates our space; pun intended.

[Phyreblade]

Thanks, but disliked Diablo the first version.

 

Yes; some actually wish to play solo, or with friends. While this may surprise some, it really should not. And when we go out of the way to play on a PvE server, go to Rest Zones, and expect to gain permission before being attacked in any form; would say that it violates our space; pun intended.

 

There are plenty of people every day that I wish I could just avoid entirely. Unfortunately, I have to respect that not everyone is just going to disappear, because they interfere with what I'd rather be doing. Oh, well.

[Shaith]

Hear hear!

 

I also heard multiple reports of entire planets devoted to people ruining the gaming experience of others by attacking them simply because they were a member of a different faction. This is a particularly nasty form of griefing which --I'm told-- is very similar to the way in which the game itself has been griefing me for the last dozen or so levels.

 

For example: I simply wanted to go to a location in the Nikto Sector of Nar Shaddaa, but a bunch of griefing NPCs suddenly turned red and started attacking me without me attacking them. I didn't come there to attack them. I never flagged myself for "random attacks by gang members" yet they attacked me and forced me to return the attack against my will. Bioware needs to remove this NPC griefing immediately.

 

I can't see how these things have been left in the game for so long. It seems that everywhere I go, people are attacking me without me wanting to be attacked or forcing me to go places when they know I will be attacked. Why do they think this is okay? I just want to play my game? Why are they forcing me to actually be subject to game mechanics? I demand that they add options in the Preferences for:

 

[ - ] Allow game mechanics

[ - ] Allow game world to react to my presence

[ - ] Allow game to trigger game events without my explicit approval

[ - ] Disable fun

 

 

this made me lol. there's probably a few other options you could throw in there

 

On-topic now:

 

Having to cure the infection was irritating maybe once or twice, after that my usual groupies and I either just let it ride, chased each other down, or ran with vaccine potions going. It's not like they didn't supply a friggen ton of them as rewards for the dailies or anything. On a lower-level alt who got it running through the station it wasn't a huge deal either. It was a galaxy-wide pandemic. The fact that it was so pervasive was actually fun since it added a bit of realism to the event.

 

If there were an outbreak of Smallpox today, do you honestly think you'd be immune, even if you were one of the ones who actually received a shot for it years ago? not likely. Could you avoid getting it by whining at the World Health Organization, telling them you didn't want to participate in it? Good luck with that.

 

The inadvertent PVP flagging was a minor nuisance, generally started by one or two idiots on the opposing faction who were just out stretching their e-peens. They'd typically manage to get one or two people sucked into it, make themselves feel all big and bad, and shortly after that you'd see the mass of people standing around the Jawa on Tatooine stomp them into Hutt excrement. Honestly it was largely self-policing on our server - the flagged folks pretty much stuck to the flagged folks. On the rare occasion where one would go out of their way to be a complete idiot (like trying to gank the guy who has just spawned the elite mob on the chain) you'd often see the guy who tried to gank suddenly finding themselves ganked by several passers-by.

 

And you'd also see cases where non-flagged people of opposing factions would jump in and lend a hand killing mobs when someone had clearly bitten off more than they could chew.

 

In my opinion there simply wasn't any real griefing going on - the players themselves policed it pretty darned well and prevented it from happening.

 

As for the exploit flagging - sure, that should be fixed. Rift managed to do it exceptionally well - if you set the NO PVP option you couldn't even accidentally flag by buffing or healing someone who was still flagged. You had to very deliberately enable it before you could interact. And even with that seemingly ideal solution there were many tears and much butthurt. Doesn't mean they shouldn't fix it, but honestly, OP needs to shrug it off, enjoy the event for what it was. Sure the event could've used a little tweaking. But for a first-time thing I think they did pretty darned well overall.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Shaith

[Roccobb]

There is so much misconception surrounding PvP and the virus. If someone exploded on you, you were not flagged for PvP.

 

If you were flagged for PvP on a PvE server you did one of 4 things:

1) toggled your flag on

2) went through a lawless zone

3) got exploited by a player with their flag on by using an AoE while the loser was stealthed and stalking you for the express purpose of forcing you into PvP.

4) You joined a group with a player who was flagged for PvP

 

This event highlighted several issue with PvP on PvE servers. I think the best solution would be to make it so that those with their flag off can not attack a flagged player. This will prevent exploitation by gankers, since stealthing and stalking a player would not lead to them joining PvP. Also, remove the issue where joining a group with someone who is flagged automatically flags you (I accidently flagged a guildie that way which led to both of us being ganked by level 50s until we called in our guild members to clean them out).

 

Forcing a player on a PvE into PvP when you are such a high level that they can't even hurt you, and then killing them every single time they res for an hour is griefing. Exploding on someone so that they get the rakghoul virus, which doesn't harm them, is removable, gives you rewards when you explode, and doesn't damage equipment? - Not griefing.

 

Yes, somebody flagged for pvp exploding on you did cause your flag to activate. You doing nothing else but standing there will get you the same result. You can call it a bug, exploit, whatever you wish. However it does not change the fact that getting exploded on by someone who was flagged made you flag, with zero input from you.

[Valkirus]

There are plenty of people every day that I wish I could just avoid entirely. Unfortunately, I have to respect that not everyone is just going to disappear, because they interfere with what I'd rather be doing. Oh, well.

 

That is one reason to use the ignore feature. It was put into the game for a reason.

[Valkirus]

All Bioware had to do is have some Elite Containment Soldiers patrol the Space Station and take out anyone who is infected.... This would of kept the Space Station free of the disease and discourage players from camping on the station and provide a safe zone....

 

Their other mistake was they should of made the serum free instead of charging 2k credits.....

 

Pretty simple solution but as usually over looked by Bioware....

 

I agree. A very simple, but effective design improvement. This way those who want to do the event can and those who donot..can avoid it more easily.

[Elhanan]

There are plenty of people every day that I wish I could just avoid entirely. Unfortunately, I have to respect that not everyone is just going to disappear, because they interfere with what I'd rather be doing. Oh, well.

 

I have played solo in two beta tests in order to insure it was possible, and mostly successfully here currently. And while there is the rare occurance os someone not willing to wait their turn or some such, I have manged fairly well until this Event released a mechanic with a reason to infect others via Mission. What bioware failed to consider is that not every Player would be resonable, and still abide by othe other game rules.

 

RP and PvP are not reasons for Griefing, and misuse of a mechanic is in the extant rules.

[Malastare]

Player vs NPC? Just a guess....

 

Ah... I see... So a Wamp Rat giving you Wamp Rat Fever against your will is a fun game mechanic, but if another player gave you Wamp Rat Fever, then it's griefing.

 

Yeah. I'm sure there's some universe where that makes sense.

[Saurakk]

This is in no way targeted at all who enjoy PvP but these forums sure as heck seem to show that many who do enjoy PvP have some seriously impaired ability at critical thinking.

 

PvE server = Player vs Environment...NOT PvP

 

I hope you are still following.

 

If you WANT to participate in PvP on a PvE server there are ways to CHOOSE to PvP, but you should never be forced into it. This is not an assumption but a statement from the game developers.

 

The griefing part was the PvP flagged players blowing up on opposite faction non PvP flagged people This caused them to be flagged for PvP when they did not want to be. Remember, PvE server...

 

I know, it is getting confusing, but follow along.

 

THAT is the griefing, and the exploit.

 

Not the event, not the cost of the stim, not the disease, but the PvP flagging.

 

That is ALSO the reason that the people on PvP servers did not see any griefing. Amazingly, you were already flagged.

 

I hope that helped some of you with the learning disability.

[Pheroras]

From what I understood a toon could only get infected by going on the fleet IF they had already gone to the crash site, thereby setting off the initial quest chain and a codex unlock. At least that had been my experience, because I went to the fleet on the first day hoping to be infected and not having any luck. Only after I flew out to Dune Sea was I able to go back to the comfort of fleet and share my disease with my fellow cross realmers.

[Veluthurk]

not surprised in the slightest that the OP continues to argue this point even though the event is over.

 

Here I edited and emboldened his OP so you can read and understand.

 

Now that the first Event is a part of TOR history, I would ask Bioware and the community as a whole to improve the game by better defining what is intended to be seen as Griefing, aid the Players in seeing it removed, and disciplining those that are found guilty of using such methods in spoiling the play of others.

[RDeanOU]

So you aren't going to stop wasting your life on this just because the event is over? What a shame.

 

For the last time, everyone except you and a couple of others recognize that this is so far away from the definition of griefing (with the exception of the exploit that forced others into being pvp flagged), that it is simultaneously comical and pathetic that you continue to use that term. Get over it.

[Roccobb]

From what I understood a toon could only get infected by going on the fleet IF they had already gone to the crash site, thereby setting off the initial quest chain and a codex unlock. At least that had been my experience, because I went to the fleet on the first day hoping to be infected and not having any luck. Only after I flew out to Dune Sea was I able to go back to the comfort of fleet and share my disease with my fellow cross realmers.

 

And your understanding is wrong. Next!

[Saurakk]

From what I understood a toon could only get infected by going on the fleet IF they had already gone to the crash site, thereby setting off the initial quest chain and a codex unlock. At least that had been my experience, because I went to the fleet on the first day hoping to be infected and not having any luck. Only after I flew out to Dune Sea was I able to go back to the comfort of fleet and share my disease with my fellow cross realmers.

 

I never went to tat but was infected many times on the fleet on each of my three toons. Was not anything dreadful though, just explode after a bit and move on.

[amantheil]

From what I understood a toon could only get infected by going on the fleet IF they had already gone to the crash site, thereby setting off the initial quest chain and a codex unlock. At least that had been my experience, because I went to the fleet on the first day hoping to be infected and not having any luck. Only after I flew out to Dune Sea was I able to go back to the comfort of fleet and share my disease with my fellow cross realmers.

 

No, that's not the case. I had a character that was too low a level to go to Tatooine, and it was infected by someone exploding on it (or some other reason). I didn't mind. I just exploded and sent the DNA samples in the mail to my main.

[FooBard]

Catching the plague from someone else is not griefing...

 

Getting PVP flagged from someone else (and then getting gank killed...) IS griefing.

 

 

The PVP fllag part is all they need to fix. Spreading the plague... not an issue.

[JediElf]

The Rakghoul Plague, well, there was vaccine, so not too bad.

 

The exploiting of AoE to flag another person is just that, an exploit. Report them for it, names, levels, class, AC, time, place, circumstances, and server, plus your information as well. Forced into PvP while you are questing and fighting a mob, is a cowardly way to "gain" a kill for lowly griefers, and is an exploit that does need to be rectified.

 

This exploit has been going on for months, or since BETA and or release.

 

Back on Hoth I was solo questing, attacked a mob with 2 Strong in it, as a tank I used an AoE (Wither) as did Khem, found myself dead ??? and Flagged PvP and saw 4 Republics leaving me. Bad enough I was engaged in a fight, worse they exploited me into PvP mode, worse still it took 4??? of them to kill me with a mob too? (that's why cowards and lowly, and without any honor). As I went around in the tunnels I noticed a lot of other single Imperials lying dead on the ground so it was not just me.

 

Fix the forced PvP Exploit, Please BW.

 

This. ^

 

Also, has the definition of PVP really changed to 'using an exploit, and killing people on PVE servers'? From some of the replies here, it would seem that this is the case.

[Malastare]

The griefing part was the PvP flagged players blowing up on opposite faction non PvP flagged people This caused them to be flagged for PvP when they did not want to be. Remember, PvE server...

 

Yeah, we know. I play on an RP(-PvE) server. Everyone here understands and I haven't seen anyone argue that the inadvertent PvP flagging was desirable, or fun, or anything other than a bug. We got it. We're right there with you.

 

The OP, on the other hand disagrees. He sees simply infecting someone else with the Plague as griefing. Not flagging them. Not attacking them. Simply passing the infection to them.

[Vincynt]

Thanks, but disliked Diablo the first version.

My use of Diablo III as an example was because it's a single playing game with a co-op option where you CHOOSE who to allow into your game world. And it seems like that's what you need. Maybe find a different title then. SWTOR is an MMO. It is supposed to be a representation of an online world (now we won't get into how successful of a representation, but it's supposed to be one none the less) and that means having to deal with people and mechanics that you might not necessarily want to deal with. Again that seems to be your overall problem with what you've precieved as griefing.

 

Yes; some actually wish to play solo, or with friends. While this may surprise some, it really should not. And when we go out of the way to play on a PvE server, go to Rest Zones, and expect to gain permission before being attacked in any form; would say that it violates our space; pun intended.

I don't find it surprising that you want to play solo or with friends. What I find surprising is that you play an MMO and expect that you should always be able to play solo or only with friends with no interference from anyone other then those you allow to join you. That's just not what an MMO is or should be IMO. To put it into context, and I know people have purposed this logic to you already to no avail, you weren't "attacked". You were infected. By an intended game mechanic. As it was supposed to work.

 

I have played solo in two beta tests in order to insure it was possible, and mostly successfully here currently. And while there is the rare occurance os someone not willing to wait their turn or some such, I have manged fairly well until this Event released a mechanic with a reason to infect others via Mission. What bioware failed to consider is that not every Player would be resonable, and still abide by othe other game rules.

 

RP and PvP are not reasons for Griefing, and misuse of a mechanic is in the extant rules.

 

I'm sure BW was/is well aware that in every MMO there are jerks to be found. Just as in life. That's the problem with an MMO that creates an online world. Just as in this world you can't control who you work with (unless you're the boss I suppose), who shops at the grocery store you shop at, who goes to the same park you go to, who goes to see the same movie as you, etc. IMO you're putting an unreasonable onus on BW to control the actions of people who pay for the same privilage you do, access to the servers.

 

And as other's have pointed out to you, you really are misusing that word, griefing. You sure do toss it around a lot without knowing it's proper meaning.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=griefing

 

Pay particular attention to the first defination, second point. That's the most accurate for the proper use of that word. And your "own team" infecting you to complete a mission is not griefing.

 

BTW I do agree that the PvP flagging is an issue. On a PvE server you should have to enter into a PvP area, a Warzone, or flag yourself intentionall with /pvp, to be flagged for PvP.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Vincynt

[Kindara]

The only griefing I saw was in relation to the PVP flagging issue. Even then it was all completely avoidable. You had to spend a measily few mins to do a quest and get 1 serum or better yet just buy it from the hundreds of vendors selling it. Or just walk around the explosion radius. Everyone knew there was a circle of infected people on the fleet pass spot simply avoid using the fleet pass or make sure you were vaccinated it wasn't that hard.

 

Its not like the wow event where you couldn't avoid it at all and it also killed NPCs including quest NPCs which was griefing and ridiculousness.

 

Anyone calling the infection circles or the event mechanics 'griefing' have no idea what griefing is. Griefing is chasing a person down and stealing all their kills, all the chests they're moving for, all the nodes they're trying to farm for craft materials. Griefing is purposely finding ways to set someone's flag to PVP that didn't want to PVP and killing them or getting them killed.

 

The event only caused a grief like feeling for those that were not using the readily available vaccine. You could of opted out and you didnt what happened after that was the fault of the player.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Kindara

[Pheroras]

And your understanding is wrong. Next!

 

i got a boo boo but i didn't cry about it

[AGSThomas]

Oh nozzz my caratar iz infected!! Whatamigundo? Oh noz i xplodeds!! I get to revive ezactly where i am and take no gear damge but lol i dont like thus!!! Change it!!