Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Tatebomb]

Bah, if he cared so much about the blues, he could have hopped in his phone booth and fixed it. Maybe made sure that the other Wyld Stallion had a career post-Bogus Journey.

 

It's a bit off topic but funny you mention that. They are making a third Bill and Ted.

[Tatebomb]

Yes, this exactly. Im affraid the issue of being flagged for PvP unwantingly is kind off wasted because of the complaints on the rakghoul plague. There is simply no other valid argument to make against the event. (No, not even the money argument because most people would be happy to give you a vaccine for free)

 

@Tatebomb: although you're getting a bit harsh, you should get a medal.

 

Speaking of harsh this threads title should be " Griefing. Some people's problem. It not mine but I'm bored and want to stir the pot.". I will say though I wish OP would focus his energy on a more worthy cause. He could end world hunger in a week. Or at least get the UN to define what world hunger is at least.

[Calsetes]

It's a bit off topic but funny you mention that. They are making a third Bill and Ted.

 

.....

 

I will say though I wish OP would focus his energy on a more worthy cause. He could end world hunger in a week. Or at least get the UN to define what world hunger is at least.

 

Hey, superheroes can't end world hunger, what makes you think a regular guy can!?!? Also, I think we all know what world hunger really is:

 

When Galactus has those "midnight munchies" and his herald can't seem to find a good enough planet for him. Poor giant world-eating guy...

[Elhanan]

You're also pipe dreaming if you think BW or any MMO company is gonna spell out every possible thing that could be griefing. There would have been something they didn't think of and those people would take advantage of a loophole. You've think you've been griefed? Fine report them and shut up about it move on with your life.

 

Of course I do not expect everything listed; not even the Wki has exhaustive info. But the general things such as Camping could be addressed, as well as locations that may or may not be Off Limits.

 

Moving on to others; thanks for the advice.

[Tatebomb]

Of course I do not expect everything listed; not even the Wki has exhaustive info. But the general things such as Camping could be addressed, as well as locations that may or may not be Off Limits.

 

Moving on to others; thanks for the advice.

 

Don't recall giving you advice(what would be the point) just telling you how it is but thanks for your usual condescending response.

[mathisk]

51 pages and still going strong...

Successful troll is successful.

[Tatebomb]

Guys if any of these things happen http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer#section_3 report it to BW. Anything else OP?

[Malastare]

Of course I do not expect everything listed; not even the Wki has exhaustive info. But the general things such as Camping could be addressed, as well as locations that may or may not be Off Limits.

 

I don't think that will ever be possible. Or rather: I don't think it will ever be possible for you to find their response acceptable.

 

The big problem here is that I firmly believe that you don't actually understand what griefing is. You've mentioned that using an in-game mechanic intended to target fellow players is Griefing. You've claimed that threatening someone's family is Griefing. Neither of these are true. The first is valid (intended!) use of a game mechanic and the second is harassment, not Griefing.

 

Again, you'd find a lot more support if you could just figure out what you're talking about. One of the main reasons why my wife and I have avoided MMOs in the past is the rare-but-unavoidable griefing that is common in many of the game systems. I'm just as adamant about the suppression of Griefing as you are, but I actually understand what it is and don't try to label everything that annoys me as "Griefing". Again:

 

 

• Griefing (usually) requires outside-the-game motivation: It has to be player motivated to break the game experience of another player, not just one game character making the game difficult for another. This is talking about player intent, and yes, that's nearly impossible to prove. Still, courts do it all the time.
  
• Griefing (usually) requires a subjective misuse or misapplication of game rules or player customs. While the rules might allow behavior like corpse camping, it violates the spirit of the game rules, as there is no motivation for repeatedly engaging a character who supposedly "died". Likewise, threats or personal attacks are not griefing, because they are strictly outside the game. They are "harassment" and fall under a separate set of rules (and often: laws).
  
• Griefing (usually) requires repetition or a constantly applied obstacle. Something bad happening to you once is annoying, but it won't really be considered griefing until its done multiple times. This actually goes to show the intent of the player.
  

 

Many of the things you seem to believe are griefing fail one or more of those tests. Furthermore, you misapply or overextend several game concepts in order to support your argument. A cantina might be a "safe zone" but that doesn't mean you are immune to all game mechanics. Falling damage still kills you. They are simply "safe" because you are guaranteed that no hostile opponents will be found there. Your attempt to classify the plague as an attack fails simply because you are not the one who gets to make that decision. Bioware is. The inclusion of the mechanic and the fact that it works within faction is an implicit statement that the action is not considered an attack. Until they clarify in some other way, you don't have any authority or reason to assume otherwise.

 

I can sort of understand your grouping of all of these things under the heading of Griefing and then crusading against it as some sort plea for civility in gaming. I'd agree with that. I'd even support that. I have supported that. But I won't support you, as you're going out of your way to misrepresent situations and redefine words to suit your argument. In the end, it comes off looking like slimy propaganda, not the mature argument it should be.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Malastare

[HeavensAgent]

However, it is Bioware and their understamding of their own rules that I seek to see published more clearly, and posted in multiple location; both here on the Forums, and in the game.

Well, in fairness their definitions have been provided, and even explored in some depth, here. So, why are you still posting here? If you want them to change something, that's a topic for the Suggestion Box. Otherwise, your inquesry has been answered.

[Elhanan]

Evidently, many believe Griefing has a wider meaning then others:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

 

This is not the definitive list of Greifing, but does indicate that many hold various beliefs on the issue.

 

Bioware has listed Griefing as a Harassment issue, and they have provided many ways to avoid such occurances from being created. That said, that Lock has been Picked, amd there are still varied beliefs on what constitutes a serious offense.

 

Maybe Camping the Fleet is not a serious issue to some; one gains credits, loot, pets, and unique gear, etc. But to others, it is offensive to be the one that must move around a crowd for a week that is believed to be misplaced in the first place. Or they did not enjoy the Plaugue storyline, and were forced to play it. Etc.

 

Lots of possible reasons; not all merit action, But when my best advice is simply to Ignore possible offenders because the 'vocal majority' believes them to be a part of the gameplay, then I shall continue to post my complaints in the medium provided. And others are welcome to follow suit.

[Holden_Dissent]

So, there's no one left to argue with because no one cares about your "issue" anymore. So instead, you just keep bumping your thread and repeating the same things over and over?

 

K. Just making sure.

[Tatebomb]

Evidently, many believe Griefing has a wider meaning then others:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

 

This is not the definitive list of Greifing, but does indicate that many hold various beliefs on the issue.

 

Bioware has listed Griefing as a Harassment issue, and they have provided many ways to avoid such occurances from being created. That said, that Lock has been Picked, amd there are still varied beliefs on what constitutes a serious offense.

 

Maybe Camping the Fleet is not a serious issue to some; one gains credits, loot, pets, and unique gear, etc. But to others, it is offensive to be the one that must move around a crowd for a week that is believed to be misplaced in the first place. Or they did not enjoy the Plaugue storyline, and were forced to play it. Etc.

 

Lots of possible reasons; not all merit action, But when my best advice is simply to Ignore possible offenders because the 'vocal majority' believes them to be a part of the gameplay, then I shall continue to post my complaints in the medium provided. And others are welcome to follow suit.

 

Actually your best advice was to report them not ignore them. But there is something to be said for sucking it up and driving on. Not everything is the end of the world and need a crusade to fight it. I don't like when people undercut me on the GTN so maybe I should call it griefing and launch a crusade demanding bioware say what X item costs.

[HeavensAgent]

That's the thing, though. This isn't a place to post complaints, nor is it a place to post suggestions. You've transitioned from a general inquiry and discussion to a crusade. That's fine, but there are accepted methods of doing so.

 

 

• If you want something changed, be it policy or the way policy is stated, use the Suggestion Box.
  
• If you're wanting to launch a crusade to change the hearts and minds of those who set out to interfere with other's play, the PvP forums are the place to go.
  
• If you have something specific to address, say the event and how it was executed, there are identified threads for such discussion and commentary.
  
• If you want to form a general anti-grieffing task force among players, there's both the server forums and the Community board.
  

 

Continuing to post here has no effect. All it does is make you as bad, if not worse than, those you feel have wronged you. You're actually strengthening their position at this point, because your actions and continued comments are inflammatory and argumentative. At this point it appears as if you're attempting to actively grief the grieffers.

[Thornsbane]

It was so much fun exploding onto people. loved it. Woo!! And then you went all green and writhed around in pain....haha, priceless!!

 

So looking forward to doing it again, worth my monthly sub alone. Gonna buy 6 months sub just waiting for the next time........... See you guys on fleet!!

[NotSevv]

As opposed to...?

 

Exactly my point; when someone intentionally attempts to spoil the gameplay of another, this is Griefing. Personally, I d not care much if this motivated by a dislike of my vocal stance, or by my wearing ugly helms, the end result is harassment.

 

Thanks for your deep concern!

 

I think you missed alot of the sarcasm when I post. The pvp flag we agree is an issue, one they will hopefully fix for the next event, tho if an unflagged player blows up on a flagged player well that's your fault. Other than that the issues you have with an event are not griefing, just because one player doesn't like an event doesn't mean that there are griefing issues around it, now if someone knows that you for instance don't want the virus and follows you around to infected you because of it you could call it "griefing" but being on fleet or in a zone with you is not. At the same time the person could simply use the "I'm following the games quest to infect other players" and avoid any punishment, as all you would have to do is to use the vaccine and there would be no reason for that player to follow you anymore. You have to realize that you are playing a MMO (massive multplayer online) game and this is no single player game.

[NotSevv]

Evidently, many believe Griefing has a wider meaning then others:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

 

This is not the definitive list of Greifing, but does indicate that many hold various beliefs on the issue.

 

Bioware has listed Griefing as a Harassment issue, and they have provided many ways to avoid such occurances from being created. That said, that Lock has been Picked, amd there are still varied beliefs on what constitutes a serious offense.

 

Maybe Camping the Fleet is not a serious issue to some; one gains credits, loot, pets, and unique gear, etc. But to others, it is offensive to be the one that must move around a crowd for a week that is believed to be misplaced in the first place. Or they did not enjoy the Plaugue storyline, and were forced to play it. Etc.

 

Lots of possible reasons; not all merit action, But when my best advice is simply to Ignore possible offenders because the 'vocal majority' believes them to be a part of the gameplay, then I shall continue to post my complaints in the medium provided. And others are welcome to follow suit.

 

See this is where your point loses merit, it is not griefing because you have to "avoid" or feel "misplaced" no one is going out of their way to mess with your game play. You simply feel it is your right to stand where the pack is.

[Elhanan]

See this is where your point loses merit, it is not griefing because you have to "avoid" or feel "misplaced" no one is going out of their way to mess with your game play. You simply feel it is your right to stand where the pack is.

 

No; think the 'pack' is not supposed to hang at the Med Station, the Cantina, nor the Fleet. I believe this needs to be clarified for the next Event.

 

It is inconvenient when my Main must go around the infected, but becomes far more harsh with a lowbie trting to utilize a Shuutle. And while the vaccine can prevent or cure the Plague, it is being sold at the places where the infected are grouped.

 

But again, I was not only speaking of my own case, but trying to recall some of the others that have posted. Tghis Event is history, but I hope the next is smoother, and sees less folks holding up on ships or out of play because others are inconsiderate, selfish, or Griefing.

[Deyjarl]

It is harder to Grief in this game than some others,

 

It is? Do you even know how easy it is to force someone to flag for PVP even when they don't want to?

[Deyjarl]

I believe Hello Kitty Online and SW Clone Wars Adventures got a huge subscription boost after the big bad Rakghoul plague. It was just too much tension for some players. Poor fellas.

 

This contributes how?

 

If players on PVE servers don't want to PvP they should never have to, and never be forced to against their will, whether by an event mechanic (even if their was a way to stop it), or other grieving methods that are still not fixed.

 

If you want to PvP fine. There are many, many others that do not want to, or only want to at certain times of their choosing. That is their choice as it should be. Again they shouldn't be forced into PvP against their will, and events like this only encourage grieving more than usual.

 

Fix the issues with being flagged against your will and there is no problem.

 

 

BTW I'm guessing you are older than 12. If so, grow up.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Deyjarl

[Deyjarl]

Every single MMO I have bothered playing will flag you if you rez, heal or buff a flagged player.

 

That this debuff had a bug is no more than a bug. Accept it as a bug and build a bridge then get over it.

 

Those aren't the only ways it can occur. Opposing players can exploit you into flagging when you attack a group of mobs.

[Elhanan]

I think you missed alot of the sarcasm when I post. The pvp flag we agree is an issue, one they will hopefully fix for the next event, tho if an unflagged player blows up on a flagged player well that's your fault. Other than that the issues you have with an event are not griefing, just because one player doesn't like an event doesn't mean that there are griefing issues around it, now if someone knows that you for instance don't want the virus and follows you around to infected you because of it you could call it "griefing" but being on fleet or in a zone with you is not. At the same time the person could simply use the "I'm following the games quest to infect other players" and avoid any punishment, as all you would have to do is to use the vaccine and there would be no reason for that player to follow you anymore. You have to realize that you are playing a MMO (massive multplayer online) game and this is no single player game.

 

How many folks does it take to be offended to make if Griefing then? If the single indv does not matter, then how many together must become provoked for it to become a worthy matter?

 

I realize that I play on a MMO; surprising, I know. And I try to let things slide; not making a list for santa of all the bad boys and girls or some such. But if play becomes spoiled by having to deal with a Fleet, marketplace, Med Station, etc filled with such myopic behaviour, then it is my hope that something will be done to improve play for all.

[Elhanan]

It is? Do you even know how easy it is to force someone to flag for PVP even when they don't want to?

 

As Griefing may occur in other ways besides PvP Flagging, I would say that Bioware has done a fine job overall tring to prevent and restrict it. That said, further clarification of some actions could ne made, esp by those of mechanics being introduced during special Events to avoid confusion and misuse of them.

[Deyjarl]

As Griefing may occur in other ways besides PvP Flagging, I would say that Bioware has done a fine job overall tring to prevent and restrict it. That said, further clarification of some actions could ne made, esp by those of mechanics being introduced during special Events to avoid confusion and misuse of them.

 

You don't need the event to do this. You can flag people against their will pretty much anytime, and Bioware has already said it is and exploit you can report. But it doesn't seem to stop anyone. The event just exasperated the problem on PvE servers.

[HeavensAgent]

As Griefing may occur in other ways besides PvP Flagging, I would say that Bioware has done a fine job overall tring to prevent and restrict it. That said, further clarification of some actions could ne made, esp by those of mechanics being introduced during special Events to avoid confusion and misuse of them.

Most people were not confused, though. You were, and you claim you continue to be despite people explaining it over and over again. If this thread hasn't been sufficient to provide you with the insight you seek, further clarification from the developers won't either.

[Tatebomb]

Most people were not confused, though. You were, and you claim you continue to be despite people explaining it over and over again. If this thread hasn't been sufficient to provide you with the insight you seek, further clarification from the developers won't either.

 

I would pay any amount of money for a dev to come in and say OP wasn't griefed and that it was working as intended. He would still say he was griefed. OP = The boy who cried Grief.