Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[Neamhan]

So you're complaining about other people not doing their research in PvP, while you link the research that someone else did for PvE?

 

Way to miss the point. They don't have to provide their own. They can link any parse they want. But not having any 3rd party parses available (I've looked) isn't an excuse when they claim to have well geared Assassins themselves that they can use if they wanted to.

 

FYI, I do roughly 20% more damage to the WZ dummy than the Operations dummy. Even if you add 20% onto the 700 DPS people are claiming they get in Damage gear on the thread you seem to have such a problem with, that's still only 840 DPS. Now keep in mind that the average of 1200 DPS a Damage specced AC can generate is also on the Ops dummy, so they'd get the same 20% damage boost on the WZ dummy as well. 1440 DPS vs 840 DPS. What's the problem again?

[Xinika]

In your PvP. Ruining your game.

Oh wait...

 

I mean, omg tank shadowz and sinz r so opeee amg *** bw nerf.

[Metalmac]

People need to stop calling them tank assassins because that isn't what they are. They are dps assassins who are just exploiting the game systems to live longer.

 

I actually play an assassin tank with full spec in the tank tree and tank gear and my damage output is terrible, most of my damage comes from aoe and hitting my procs on lightning and shock. At best I will crit for like 2k.

 

Obviously the issue isn't the tank tree it is how the gear system and stats work. If you nerf tank damage the people actually playing as tanks will get screwed. Somehow they need to adjust the talent trees to actually make deception or madness worth specing in since most of the damage seems to depend on gear not the talents you have.

 

Ok a tank SHOULD have terrible damage.

But the Assassins put on DPS gear and change spec slightly as mostly a Tank and gain 2 things:

1. Very hard to kill as they are a tank.

2. DPS equal to or almost equal to a full DPS spec.

 

This is clearly something that needs to be fixed. Tank or DPS but not both at the same time is OP.

[Neamhan]

Ok a tank SHOULD have terrible damage.

But the Assassins put on DPS gear and change spec slightly as mostly a Tank and gain 2 things:

1. Very hard to kill as they are a tank.

2. DPS equal to or almost equal to a full DPS spec.

 

Prove it.

[Enexemander]

Prove it.

 

Seriously, THIS. Have a tanksin upload dps log and then compare that log to what a real dps can do.

 

The answers may surprise you.

[DarthKhaos]

Ok a tank SHOULD have terrible damage.

But the Assassins put on DPS gear and change spec slightly as mostly a Tank and gain 2 things:

1. Very hard to kill as they are a tank.

2. DPS equal to or almost equal to a full DPS spec.

 

This is clearly something that needs to be fixed. Tank or DPS but not both at the same time is OP.

This is such an over exaggeration. The talents boost abilities let's look at what we got. (Just gonna use Shadow Talent Names)

• Tier One: Technique Mastery 3/3
  Increase Internal and Elemental resistance by 9%
  
• Tier 2: Mental Fortitude 3/3
  Increase total Endurance by 3%
  
• Tier Three: Kinetic Ward 1/1
  Erects a kinetic ward with 8 charges that increase your shield chance by 15% for 20 seconds. Each time you successfully shield, Kinetic Ward loses 1 charge.
  
• Tier Four: Impact Control 2/2
  Increase your shield absorption by 4%. In addition, when you activate Battle Readiness while Combat Technique is active, you instantly heal for 10% of your total health.
  
• Tier Five: Stasis 1/1
  Increases armor by 20% and allows Spinning kick to be used while out of stealth mode.
  

These are the defensive talents. Without tank gear the % bonuses they give is useless. A 4% increase in shield absorb or a 15% increase in shield chance when my gear doesn't give any or much doesn't really do much good does it?

 

A Kinetic spec Shadow in DPS gear is a DPS Shadow with a couple of small heals.

[Proteus]

Its my own personal parsing, as a Shadow tank, from both WZ and against the training dummy. There are countless other parses around, on the Shadow, Assassin, SithWarrior, etc forums that all show about the same? Stalker gear vs survivor really doesn't make much difference..about 5% tradeoff of survivability for DPS.

 

Is the "700 DPS" referring to the parses mentioned earlier from tank geared people in PvE, or were there some more applicable parses mentioned in the last 40 pages?

[toshman]

Agreed. Some will say that the rotation is simple and I would tend to agree with that. However to play the class right is way harder than simple setting up for harnessed darkness every time. I can tell when I go up against a re-roller as the fight is never close. It may be due to the fact that I have been playing this spec for all 5 months this game has been out but I could be wrong and that I dont have alts so all I do is play the class.

 

there are a few other classes that require this. having 2 alts in the 35-40 range i can tell you that assn is very execution heavy.

 

you can play it poorly and do ok, but if you know how to pop cooldowns against what classes and on what skills you can really perform well. there are many assn on my server but there are 3 regulars that dominate. these 3 guys are pure hell to kill.

 

they will stun you at the right time, they will pop shroud at the right time, they will cloak at the right time. messing your rotation all at the same time, they have the correct gear build to do good dmg.

 

having assn that is currently full WH augmented with 2 pieces that are actual WH. 27/0/14 spec i can do about 300-375k in a wz. i have done 400 with dedicated healer and undergeared team. the rest of the comments are simply untrue.

 

FL on BM geared player with recklessness is about 1500 per tick. thrash about 1000-1200, shock 2000-2500. remember that 3 x trash = 0 force remainig.

[Dyvim]

My shadow doesnt put out anywhere near the dps my sent did...sorry, classic example of people being outplayed, then whining on the forums.

[Scoobings]

I have this theory that the reason people think that Mauraders and Sins are OP is because they are the only classes with defensive cooldowns that grant immunity to damage (however briefly).

 

In this patch TTK went way down. So, given a TTK of 10 seconds (that's without any research at all, or any hard data) 5 seconds of damage immunity (guarded by force and resilience) is a 50% game change. Where as if the old TTK was 30 seconds, 5 seconds isn't as high of a percentage.

 

Just a theory. Although, to be fair I personally thought the tank spec was too good pre 1.2 (though not game breakingly so).

[Onyex]

Hello, my name is Onyex. I am a Sith Assassin, here is my story...

 

I am fully custom geared all augmented, with a lil over 1000 expertise. 31/0/10

 

My Chain Shock hits for around 3200

If i have 3 stacks of HD and pop reck with my relic and adrenal my FL ticks for around 2800x4

Wither hits around 2400 with the above timers ticking down ^

Thrash 900-1200

 

As i pump out all this damage i am also healing what ever damage your throwing at me.

It doesn't matter what gear you are wearing or what class...i have tools to counter all that.

 

Now with all that said, yes i think it needs to be fixed i enjoyed deception a whole lot more but i like not dying in 5-10 seconds also.

If they fix the DR on expertise i think the whole WZ experience will be much better.

[Dartagon]

I have this theory that the reason people think that Mauraders and Sins are OP is because they are the only classes with defensive cooldowns that grant immunity to damage (however briefly).

 

In this patch TTK went way down. So, given a TTK of 10 seconds (that's without any research at all, or any hard data) 5 seconds of damage immunity (guarded by force and resilience) is a 50% game change. Where as if the old TTK was 30 seconds, 5 seconds isn't as high of a percentage.

 

Just a theory. Although, to be fair I personally thought the tank spec was too good pre 1.2 (though not game breakingly so).

 

I agree with this theory...even my merc bubble is borderline OP w/ the current TTK.

 

People gang me for 5 seconds and somehow im still alive so they rage!!

[Astarica]

I have this theory that the reason people think that Mauraders and Sins are OP is because they are the only classes with defensive cooldowns that grant immunity to damage (however briefly).

 

In this patch TTK went way down. So, given a TTK of 10 seconds (that's without any research at all, or any hard data) 5 seconds of damage immunity (guarded by force and resilience) is a 50% game change. Where as if the old TTK was 30 seconds, 5 seconds isn't as high of a percentage.

 

Just a theory. Although, to be fair I personally thought the tank spec was too good pre 1.2 (though not game breakingly so).

 

TTK is virtually unchanged if you're in full PvP gear. Maybe it's shorter against the weaker specs that got buffed, but you always had a rather short time to live when you're fighting a top DPS.

 

The problem is that a lot of people are still trained from older MMORPGs where the ability to focus fire instant wins the game. In SWTOR, focus fire, especially on non-healer target, is actually very dangerous. Marauder and Assasssin greatly punish anyone trying to focus fire on them. Both of these classes should be fought 1on1, and given the prevalence of both classes, it should be easy to find a mirror match. The problem is people see an Assassin/Marauder put up crazy numbers and say 'better stop him next game', except doing so frees up all the more vulnerable DPS and results you losing the game even more badly before, and both classes can easily pick up their DPS in the garbage time where the game has been decided. Yet most people don't realize this and tries even harder at DPSing those classes first. Ultimately, as powerful as these two classes are, they're still not a higher value target than any healer, and not even higher value than say, a Powertech, simply because the PT does comparable damage but dies way faster so it's more valuable to kill the easy-to-kill guy first.

[Otega]

lol funny threads are funny.

[Dark-force]

The simple answer to this games problems are......nerf DPS and leave armor stats alone.

Longer/quality battles.

[aidolem]

Assasins the class WITH vanish/sprint/pull/tech immunity/physical immunity/slow/root/pushback/disorient/stealth/x2 stun melee abilities/range abilities. If i forgot something let me know.

 

WHO EVER MAKE CLASS THAT CAN HAVE ALL THESE ABILITIES IN ONE IS THE WORST PVP MAKER IN WHOLE WORLD WITH HE BRAIN BEING DAMADEG TO DEATH.

[ItGetsAllOver]

WHO EVER MAKE CLASS THAT CAN HAVE ALL THESE ABILITIES IN ONE IS THE WORST PVP MAKER IN WHOLE WORLD WITH HE BRAIN BEING DAMADEG TO DEATH.

 

LOL!

 

Simply amazing.

[Belecfaron]

Assasins the class WITH vanish/sprint/pull/tech immunity/physical immunity/slow/root/pushback/disorient/stealth/x2 stun melee abilities/range abilities. If i forgot something let me know.

 

WHO EVER MAKE CLASS THAT CAN HAVE ALL THESE ABILITIES IN ONE IS THE WORST PVP MAKER IN WHOLE WORLD WITH HE BRAIN BEING DAMADEG TO DEATH.

 

Ahh, that would be the 31-31-31 build. It's pretty hard to counter, but fortunately it's hardly ever seen in game.

[vsalcedo]

Ive got a sith assassin alt and i have to say.. this is completely true. I get more dps than a dps specced player. Its grossly OP

 

We call ******** on that. My sniper does more dps then tanksins in dps gear.

[vermura]

There is a lot of rubbish in this thread, I'm certainly not going to address all of it.

 

However, as a quite experienced tank assassin here are some things to think about.

 

1) Why are virtually all assassins tank spec?

A: The other two specs, do in fact suck. You lose too much utility and too much defence to spec another way.

Improve the other specs, more people would choose to use them.

 

2) Why can assassin tanks still do damage?

A: Most don't use tank stats, they use dps stats. Tank stats are useless in pvp, cause they simply don't work

vs. the majority of damage you face. Also, their end talent (if they have it) hits multiple targets. Doesn't hit especially hard, but if your in a prolonged fight, that aoe damage stacks up in your stats. If tank stats were more viable, more tanks would actually use them. For example, my assassin is typically running around with 30% crit chance (before agent buff) and +75% crit damage.

 

3) What makes them tough?

A1: Assassins all get the inquisitor buff and a talent that increases their elemental/internal resistance. As it turns out, this is precisely the form of damage most players use, consequently, they are taking less damage because they always have the best defensive buff and talents for this damage type. As well as that, force shroud removes dots, which can be a significant source of damage, as well as preventing the nastiest attacks for the 5 seconds it lasts. Next, their base defence is 10%, not 5%, because they are wearing light armor.

NOTE: You can ensure your team has this buff by refreshing it on your group if you have it.

 

A2: Their tank "stance" has a heal proc, it's not huge, but it does help a bit - especially 1v1. The longer the fight goes, the more they will get healed by it.

 

A3: There is a talent called harnessed shadows (for assassins). Each time you use shock or wither, it gets a charge. For each charge, your next force lightening does +25% damage. At 3 stacks (the max) it ALSO heals you for 9% of your max health. This ability takes the assassin some time to build up, but its very strong. It's also uninterruptible (similar to ravage). Much like ravage, you wan't to stop the assassin from doing this. Let me give you an example of how I might attack someone.

 

Adrenal, power trinket open with shock, then wither, shadow strike (proc +100% crit on shock), recklessness (+60% crit, if its an auto crit, it just increases the damage), then force lightening. If you do not stop that force lightening, you will take a LOT of damage and I will get healed. However, if you DO stop it, you have wasted a LOT of my cool downs. A lot of classes have ways to get out of it, it's up to you to figure it out.

 

Now, another comment. Earlier in the thread, someone commented that a team heavy in shadow tanks gave them no trouble. I can tell you this is absolutely TRUE. Shadow tanks damage is not terrible, but is SIGNIFICANTLY less than a proper dps. They are good at defending points, but not so great at TAKING them if your paying attention. Why? It's that damage thing. They are fairly hard to kill, but have trouble killing quickly at the same time. Now, you may see assassin tanks top dps in games some times. This does not mean my damage is over powered, it means my team had no good dps on it lol. I play with the BEST players on the Swiftsure - and I do NOT like grouping with other assassins (or tanks of any kind) because you lose soo much damage.

 

When I'm with my regular team, I am nowhere near top damage, although I often beat all the pugs on our side... because pugs are bad. Not because I'm an Assassin

[DarthKhaos]

Assasins the class WITH vanish/sprint/pull/tech immunity/physical immunity/slow/root/pushback/disorient/stealth/x2 stun melee abilities/range abilities. If i forgot something let me know.

 

WHO EVER MAKE CLASS THAT CAN HAVE ALL THESE ABILITIES IN ONE IS THE WORST PVP MAKER IN WHOLE WORLD WITH HE BRAIN BEING DAMADEG TO DEATH.

Most of what you say they do have but they do NOT have physical immunity, a 10m range atk is NOT range. If you want to look at too much utility why not look at Operatives/Scoundrels, how about the ranged tank ability of PowerTechs/Vanguards? Everyone has advantages in this game to point out Shadows and Assassins is stupid. As much OP people call Shadows/Assassins in say Huttball ever seen the advantages a PowerTech/Vanguard has? So please complain more till they nerf EVERYTHING into oblivion that nothing is fun.

[lELADRIN]

Yes I'm A tanksin and have been since launch but the cry for nerfs on us just started since 1.2.

 

OK lets look at the tanksin's. What was changed in 1.2 um NOTHING,

 

Assassin

Mass Mind Control: Updated this tooltip to correctly state that the ability does not break stealth. The ability's functionality has not changed.

Madness (Assassin) DOT SPEC NOT TANK

Death Field no longer heals the caster if no targets are hit.

Raze's activation effects are now more visible.

 

So why are people qq'ing about them now?

 

The change in expertise plus the nerf's/buffs to other classes have caused people to L2P the class and people are getting better at playing the class. A full tanksin 31/?/? does NOT have a lot of spike damage save their assassinate which ALL specs of sin's have. Deception has the spike damage, Madness has dot's, Darkness (Tank) has self heals/defense.

 

The problem is the expertise change, which with a fully geared tanksin increases the dps, healing, and defenses. This same change is why Sentinel's and Marauder's are so op in the dps.

 

If you want to call for a nerf call for it for the RIGHT reason. Tanksin's haven't changed expertise has, nerf expertise not the Tanksin.

[cycao]

Yes I'm A tanksin and have been since launch but the cry for nerfs on us just started since 1.2.

 

 

Well there have been crys for nerfs prior to 1.2 but since the release of the patch notes and after the patch went live it has only gotten worse.

 

They also looked at the damage done in warzones and TTK and only changed DR/HSM and the fact that we were unchanged makes me wonder.

[MandraMoody]

Yes I'm A tanksin and have been since launch but the cry for nerfs on us just started since 1.2.

 

OK lets look at the tanksin's. What was changed in 1.2 um NOTHING,

 

Assassin

Mass Mind Control: Updated this tooltip to correctly state that the ability does not break stealth. The ability's functionality has not changed.

Madness (Assassin) DOT SPEC NOT TANK

Death Field no longer heals the caster if no targets are hit.

Raze's activation effects are now more visible.

 

So why are people qq'ing about them now?

 

The change in expertise plus the nerf's/buffs to other classes have caused people to L2P the class and people are getting better at playing the class. A full tanksin 31/?/? does NOT have a lot of spike damage save their assassinate which ALL specs of sin's have. Deception has the spike damage, Madness has dot's, Darkness (Tank) has self heals/defense.

 

The problem is the expertise change, which with a fully geared tanksin increases the dps, healing, and defenses. This same change is why Sentinel's and Marauder's are so op in the dps.

 

If you want to call for a nerf call for it for the RIGHT reason. Tanksin's haven't changed expertise has, nerf expertise not the Tanksin.

 

very good point! I think many of the nerf-cryers aren't over 1k expertise (watch them all now say they are lol @ predictable).

I offer though that nerfing will ruin the game entirely, but I agree it's all about the expertise stat going way up. As you mentioned also the "knowing how to play your class" - factor. This forum is saturated with people who don't.

 

I guess finger pointing takes less twinkies to power than actually getting better at something. <shrug>

[DarthKhaos]

very good point! I think many of the nerf-cryers aren't over 1k expertise (watch them all now say they are lol @ predictable).

I offer though that nerfing will ruin the game entirely, but I agree it's all about the expertise stat going way up. As you mentioned also the "knowing how to play your class" - factor. This forum is saturated with people who don't.

 

I guess finger pointing takes less twinkies to power than actually getting better at something. <shrug>

It's interesting pre 1.2 I've been telling people that expertise is an important stat when you're PvPing esp for a new lvl 50. They come from the 10-49 bracket where there were little to no expertise and believe their OP PvE gear will be enough. The stat is a PvP equalizer. Now post 1.2 it's even more important to have the stat. Gona is the day of mixing and matching PvE & PvP gear to make yourself better. It's ALL PvP gear or you get rolled. The more expertise you got the better.

 

I've mentioned it before the tanking talents Shadows & Assassins have give a % boost to defensive stats and when a player wear DPS gear they get no no benefits from the % increases. The only thing they gain is some health back abilities only enough to keep em a live a little longer. Make no mistake they are more DPS than tank in DPS gear.