How may DPS attackers should healer be able to defend against?

[Darth_Philar]

... said the Medicine Operative, you mean.

 

Balance is not a healer staying alive forever while a DPSer wails on them. A healer that can stay alive forever will be able to slowly whittle away at a DPSer, killing them.

 

All I would have to do is keep Corrosive Dart on a Sentinel and heal myself while he attacked me futilely until he was dead several minutes later from a DoT. How is that balance?

 

In a balanced meta game, by using the GCD to apply corrosive dart you seal your fate. You skipped a heal and thus you fall behind and will die. Stop using actual gameplay to argue about balance, the game as it currently exists is NOT balanced.

[Malik_The_Hated]

To prevent a healer from healing his team: 1

To kill a healer: 2 (1 should be able to but is should take quite a while)

To kill a guarded healer: 3 (2 should be able to but is should take quite a while)

 

This is the perfect answer to how I believe any PVP situation should be with a DPS spec vs a HEAL spec - not counting hybrids etc as they are choice and have their own limits and utilities.

 

1 HEAL vs 1 DPS - should be a stalemate for the most part - the healer can CC and run or heal himself through the DPS but most likely cant focus much on his teamates - one or the other could whittle each other down with skill but the healer cant output alot of dmg due to healing and spec to kill the DPS. its a perfect distraction and tactic.

 

2 DPS vs 1 HEAL - should definitely be a win but not the current 4 second destruction it currently is with some classes - yes they should win after the healer has used cooldowns and resources to keep him out of the fight and down

 

and I agree with the 1Heal 1Tank vs DPS - should take 2-3 good players to take them down regardless - its a healer they are a rare thing and you get 1-2 per WZ team - they are needed and the current state of PVP is causing them to reroll or respec DPS...period this is fact

 

 

this coming from a long term PVP player in MMOs over the last 15yrs. We already have a 30% debuff for healing and lost a big amount of expertise healing % - the DPS shouldnt have been RAISED so much at the same time in effect doubling our healing loss....now the healing needs to be revisited

[RobNightfall]

the fact that people think it should take 2 dps to take down 1 healer is just laughable.

 

if the healer is being targeted, he should die to 1 dps, and it shouldnt be rocket science. you SHOULD have to blow your CDs to stay alive, we have to use them to burn.

 

If you are freecasting, i don't see why healing shouldnt outscale dps, that is inherently the point of healing. But when you get targeted, you should die without help.

 

that is where we are right now. many healers QQ because they get targeted... well sorry, you have to be a viable target, learn to kite to force the dps into terrible positions in even fights and get teammates who help.

 

The only tweaking needed right now is that freecasting dps >>>>>>>>>>>>> freecasting healing.

 

Healers feel this way because this MMO, like many others, seems to have set things up so they don't receive much support. It used to be that everyone kept an eye on the healer to be sure they survived the fight. Now, a healer gets a guard from a tank, some times, when the tank feels like it. And that's it. Very few people seem to peel any more and the idea that a DPS player will return to help the healer is almost laughable. So you have a group of people who are supporting the team but receiving little to no support in turn and yes, to them, it will feel like they should stand against more than one DPS. Not necessarily because this is the right idea, but because they have to be able to out heal DPS without any support.

 

A lot of the people who have been complaining about heals being OP are actually to blame because healers have had to stay alive without any support from their team members. This is especially true for DPS players, who have a tendency to charge in and ignore healers completely except to complain that they suddenly didn't get any heals and died. That people want healers to be vulnerable to attack is logical. That they do not want to change their play style to keep their healer alive is not. We now have extremely squishy healers. This necessitates that we play the way we did once upon a time: if the healer calls for help, drop everything and get to them. And no, I don't play a healer lol.

[Monterone]

Healers feel this way because this MMO, like many others, seems to have set things up so they don't receive much support. It used to be that everyone kept an eye on the healer to be sure they survived the fight. Now, a healer gets a guard from a tank, some times, when the tank feels like it. And that's it. Very few people seem to peel any more and the idea that a DPS player will return to help the healer is almost laughable. So you have a group of people who are supporting the team but receiving little to no support in turn and yes, to them, it will feel like they should stand against more than one DPS. Not necessarily because this is the right idea, but because they have to be able to out heal DPS without any support.

 

That's because guarding a healer means quicker death now. The amount of dps is so insane that in most situations guarding one will mean pretty quick death for the guarder. People will still focus the healers and will do such tremendous amounts of damage in a short period of time that they will most like kill 2 birds with one stone, the healer and the tank guarding one. This is especially true if one is guarding a sorc/sage healer. They take such amounts of damage, that it's a waste of a guard. They will die in a few seconds anyway and take half your health with them.

 

Do I guard healers when running pre-mades in my guild, of course I do. Do I guard random healers in a PUG... not any more, just means quicker death for me.

 

Yes, this is oversimplified and the battles are more situational, but it is definitely a pointer that there is a greater underlying issue here.

[LancelotOC]

I'd rather have healer dps abilities turned off in WZ than have it where healers heal less than one damage class can dish out damage if that's the problem.

 

The whole healers that can out heal dps can eventually kill the DPS 3 minutes later deal should not end with healing being nerfed.

[Khoraji]

If the healer is being attacked. They should be able to heal through 1 DPS. If the healer is being attacked by 2 DPS then the healer should die.

 

If the healer is healing someone ELSE. They should be able to heal through 2 dps.

[Darth_Philar]

If the healer is being attacked. They should be able to heal through 1 DPS. If the healer is being attacked by 2 DPS then the healer should die.

 

If the healer is healing someone ELSE. They should be able to heal through 2 dps.

 

This, essentially.

[sanchito]

imo it should obviously be 2, as 1 healer and one dps should cancel each other out more or less (as in, either the healer wins after a very long time because the dps cant heal himself, or the dps should win after a very long time because the healer runs out of mana. As long as it takes forever for either outcome it doesn't really matter wich one happens)

 

I feel like equally skilled and geared, any 2 vs1 should be won decisively by the 2, no matter the classes / roles.

[Tenthletter]

Solo: One if similarly geared.

 

With Tank: Two if similarly geared, maybe three if the tank is using Taunts properly.

 

That seems to be about the situation now from what I've seen.

[LancelotOC]

I really think they need to nerf healer damage in Warzones. It just seems the reason we have a difficult time against one enemy is that our DPS is part of BWs balancing metrics.

 

Well isn't there a point where enemy damage is so much that stopping self-healing to DPS just makes a healer die faster? That we have any DPS is almost a pitfall in playing the class under the current DPS situation. You mistakenly DPS and die faster because you didnt use that time window to heal your self.

[Frostbyt]

Anything more than 1 :1 is OP. If you can out heal 3 dps you are essentially equivalent to 3 people and throw off the balance of the wz . That's how it was pre 1.2. Now its much more balanced

[ItGetsAllOver]

In a balanced meta game, by using the GCD to apply corrosive dart you seal your fate. You skipped a heal and thus you fall behind and will die. Stop using actual gameplay to argue about balance, the game as it currently exists is NOT balanced.

 

Not sure if trolling or...

 

Actual gameplay is how the game SHOULD be balanced. In what universe are you going to have a healer sitting there spamming heals on himself forever while I DPSer just stands there and tries to kill the healer without stopping them?

[Lexster]

Self healing, about .75 dps to kill a healer.

 

Healing another 1.75 DPS to kill

 

You cant have it be an even 1 to 1, games arent designed for one on one. Also, healing isn't the only thing happening, as the healer typically is able to throw out some dps or dots as well. Really though, its not so much how many it takes to kill something as much as it should be how long should it take to kill someone. Focus fire skews this a lot.

[Dzhokhar]

Not sure if trolling or...

 

Actual gameplay is how the game SHOULD be balanced. In what universe are you going to have a healer sitting there spamming heals on himself forever while I DPSer just stands there and tries to kill the healer without stopping them?

 

His point was that the example he was responding to wasn't consistent with the idea it was trying to refute.

 

Person 1: A healer should be able to just barely keep himself alive indefinitely against an equivalent (gear/skill) DPS.

 

Person 2: That doesn't make sense, the healer just has to keep his DoT going on the DPS and he'll win by attrition.

 

Person 3 (the guy you quoted): You're mixing real gameplay with a hypothetical ideal. In the scenario described by person 1, the healer can't afford to keep his DoT going because then he'd fall behind on his healing.

[LancelotOC]

Not sure if trolling or...

 

Actual gameplay is how the game SHOULD be balanced. In what universe are you going to have a healer sitting there spamming heals on himself forever while I DPSer just stands there and tries to kill the healer without stopping them?

 

Dude it what universe would anyone play a healer when they die one on one to everyone? Why wouldn't they just play a DPS themselves?

[TheMunny]

Dude it what universe would anyone play a healer when they die one on one to everyone? Why wouldn't they just play a DPS themselves?

 

Ideally they should be able to defend 1v1 and not die, as well as, not be able to kill the dps. Now, toss in 1 more dps (2v1) and eventually the healer should fall due to interrupts and push back etc. I'm not saying the 2 dps should mop the floor with the healer, but in no way should the healer be able to out heal 2 dps while beating down their health bar.

 

Just my opinion.

[PenetratedYou]

I definitely think its more complicated than people are making it out to be. It shouldn't be how many people, but how much HPS VS DPS. In addition to that, people are forgetting that there's such thing as line of sighting and interrupting meaning that the dps's up time has to be taken into account too. There's no such thing as a perfect balance and there probably is never going to be. I know for a fact i play an operative healer and one Sent/Mara can take me down but ONLY if i stand there and let him beat on me. But obviously i'm not going to do that, i'll move around stun him, cc him etc. In short i think the answer to this is that there isn't a certain requirement of people that is needed to take down a healer. There are many different aspects that should be taken into account, like the environment, skill, gear. However If i had to choose a certain number of people required to kill a GOOD healer i would say 1.5-2, 1.5 meaning one dedicated and someone throwing occasional damage out.

 

P.S. i have no trouble healing in games i think people make healers out to be far more squishy than they are. If you're not moving and taking damage to the face you should probably expect to die. Especially if you're not using the skills that you're given, like CC's and Knock backs. For the record im an operative healer who averages about 350-500k a game. I have 900+ Expertise and i'm mostly in BM Gear. I can usually survive with 2-3 people on me if i play well and if I'm lucky i can toss out an occasional heal. We may not all be at 100% but i can still prolong there death.

[LancelotOC]

Yes I agree with you as I'm sure most others do. I was just pointing out that he said a healer self healing himself endlessly while a DPS attacking him without stopping is not ok.

 

Why is not ok? I understand it's boring for a healer to sit there and heal himself endlessly against this DPS class but what do healers want? If this is not the case than the only thing that can be is they heal themselves and fall short until the DPS kills them.

 

In which case playing a healer makes no sence, play a DPS class as well. At least in a DPS against DPS there is a 50 -50 chance you kill or be killed.

 

Unless they heal so much that they can stop healing at some point and dump some damage and kill the DPS. No one wants that either because then everyone would play a healer.

 

When you have a DPS attacking a healer and the healer can do nothing but heal himself to survive and never dies you have fair for all in my humble opinion.

[TheMunny]

Y

 

When you have a DPS attacking a healer and the healer can do nothing but heal himself to survive and never dies you have fair for all in my humble opinion.

 

Right, the healer should be able to hold himself up. The reason is due to just hard capped player numbers in WZ's. If a healer could tank a dps, while holding up 1 more team mate with heals, he effectively negates 3 players, not 2, as it would require 1 more dps to kill the team mate or the healer. At that point if your opposition had 3 healers there would be no reason to attempt the WZ. Assuming all gear equal is equal ofcourse.

[RStoney]

Well - instead of getting up and banging my head against a wall - will write a post in here. Probably same end result, we will just debate the time difference.

 

(disclaimer - my main is a heal-spec sage)

 

IF same level, same gear, no respawn run-back to fight, and not a hybrid class:

 

Healer vs Tank - essentially stalemate - no one can out-damage the heal rate.

Healer vs DPS - long battle that if DPS doesn't screw ANYTHING up - wins

Healer vs Healer - toss up. Who screws up first, loses.

 

Tank + Healer vs DPS = DPS loses in medium amount of time.

Tank +Healer vs DPS+DPS = DPS wins, but should take quite some time.

Tank + Healer vs DPS+DPS+DPS = DPS wins, should be fairly short time

DPS + Healer vs any other class solo = Easy win, medium amount of time or less.

DPS + DPS vs Healer = Healer loses. This should be a short amount of time - but Healer should get several casts off.

 

DPS + DPS + DPS vs Tank + Tank + Heals = Get a room, guys. Should go either way, depending on relative skill levels. If there is two or more "superlative* class players on either side - that side should win.

 

Sorry - I keep editing this -

DPS should have to worry about how much health they have, and kill before it runs out.

Heals should have to constantly worry about force, and either win/break engagement before it runs out.

Tanks should not really worry about much of anything - other than, is support coming *some time* soon before they die of lack of hitpoints or boredom.

Edited April 19, 2012 by RStoney

[LancelotOC]

If you're not moving and taking damage to the face you should probably expect to die. Especially if you're not using the skills that you're given, like CC's and Knock backs. For the record im an operative healer who averages about 350-500k a game. I have 900+ Expertise and i'm mostly in BM Gear. I can usually survive with 2-3 people on me if i play well and if I'm lucky i can toss out an occasional heal. We may not all be at 100% but i can still prolong there death.

 

Moving around and CC abilities are not exculsive to healers though. These are available to all. I don't think you can fairly say HPS should be lower than DPS because a healer can move around and use his CC.... a DPS can move around and use their CC as well. It's not part of the balancing in my opinion.

 

I know it's easy to think when 2 people are chasing you that it's your "if I play well" that keeps you alive as that is self serving. It's human.

 

The truth is probobly closer to a mixture of you playing well and those 2 playing bad as I'm sure you have also encountered people that played well against you and killed you solo.

 

Balance should always be based on optimal play from all. You can't balance based on people never using their interupts or CC or not having the extra CC from cybertech. You have to balance that people will make the best choice. People will eventually get that good.

[kickinhead]

One Healer should be able to outheal 2 DPS if you don't get stunned or interrupted. You should be able to at least have 5k Instants (with certain drawbacks to not make them spammable like the upperhand-mechanic and for 2 DPS to be able to kill 1 Healer with good interrupts and stuns).

 

If 1 healer cannot out-heal 2 DD's, you might as well remove healing from the game, because of several reasons:

 

- Healing doesn't get you through doors or caps/recaps you points

- With such short respawn-timers, healing isn't that important anyways

- with 8-man premades, nobody will play more than 3 healers, most will play 2, if 2 healers cannot heal against 4 DD's if the opponent will have 6 (with tanks being pretty good DD's too) there is no need for healers at all.

 

Healers need to be hard to kill and important to guard/support, but if you keep most healing with casttimes (so 1 good instant-heal with 5k heal on every healer is easily possible, if you give them heavy drawbacks like having to sac life, costing a lot of mana, only be usable on targets below 30% health or the need for upperhand etc.) interrupting, stunning and timing spiked Damage well will always be able to give you a kill.

 

Find a way to give fullhealers better heal without overpowering hybrids (having the strong insta-heals and the big healbuffs for PvP on T4+) and all will be fine.

[Elear]

In short, healer should increase time his target is alive, nothing more. Longer version has also some utility, but not now.

 

Let's first assume there are no skills, only pure dps/hps output and health. When two dps fight each other, this is simple math health of one gets decreased by dps of other. So if both have 10k hp, one 1k dps and second 1.1 dps, second will win. It will take him about 9 seconds, and leave almost dead.

Now let's add third player, healer that makes 0.9k hps while not doing any damage, vs first one.Obviously, he will finaly die, after around 100 seconds. Noticed difference? If someone were to help healer, his opponent would die instead. But that's not very fair, so now both sides have 2 players.

And this is where it gets interesting. Two average players have combined dps output of 2k. If they sit on healer helper, healer can freely heal and his output goes up, to let's say, 1.1k . Now his helper will live 11 seconds, and will need only 10 to take down one of enemies. That will cause him to actually gain health from now on, making this fight won. If they focus on healer instead, he has tools to survive it long enough for his helper to again take out at least one of enemies. Again, team with healer won. Obviously, at this point you have to consider all skills, burst damage, cc, damage reduction etc, and due to those factors outcome of fight is determined by proper use of those, not merely one of players healing.

What is however unacceptable, is for healer to be able to infinitely heal trough attacking dps that is using all his tools properly. One minute or two, but he should finally go down.

[Arkerus]

I'd say a healer should compensate 3 attackers, because 4 is too much (healer = N°1 target and if there are 2 they become unkillable -> not good) and less is hopeless.

 

Now, why so much as 3 damage dealers for just 1 healer? Reason is simple, if you attack him, he'll need to heal himself and won't be able to heal his mates very efficiently (targeting far from the easiest ever, even with the operation panel).

 

I'm aware that it would bring us longer fights, which would imply longer warzone durations, which then wouldn't be "casual-friendly", but then skill would clearly be more prevalent than ping and voice chat, which isn't the case actually.

 

3 to 1!!??

 

No wonder healers are so spoiled. This is what they've come to expect. I mean, really? WOW.

[HellionX]

my general feelings on this issue is as follows:

this is assuming equal gear / skill level between the players

 

1 healer should be able to statemate against 1 dps for a bit. when i say a bit, im thinking maybe 8-10 global CDs? in that time, the dps should be able to whittle down the heals health but not kill him. the heals should still have enough time to even throw a friendly heal out but mainly the healer should be concerned about his own well being. between the healer's defensive CDs/ccs and heals, they should be able to maintain themselves a good while. however, as the fight gets longer and goes on, the dps should start to pull ahead and eventually be able to kill the healer.

 

my reasoning is that pvp should be about teamwork. what team is allowing a dps to beat on their healer for more than 10-15 seconds? they should be ccing/peeling, guarding, taunting etc. if they choose not to do this, then yes i feel 1 dps should eventually be able to kill the healer. but again, the healer should be able to maintain himself to get to help or until help arrives. if neither happens, then the team deserve to lose the healer.

 

in the case of focus fire, say 2-3 dps, then ya the healer should die much quicker. nothing being focused by 3 dps should survive more than 3-4 global CDs with the exception of a tank that blows his defensive/emergency CDs. thats still enough time to blow a defensive CD, or some sort of CC and hopefully kite to a friendly.

 

my personal feelings on guard is that it should be a CD ability not something u just place on the person and forgot about. I would like to see it function similar to taunt that it helps reduced damage for 10 seconds or so. not that it isnt counterable currently, its just something i would like to see happen. this way teams would actually have to manage it and not just "set it and forget it'.

 

This is 100% wrong and I will tell you why. What you are saying is eventually you should be able to kill a healer 1 on 1 but the healer has NO CHANCE in killing you. Thats not balanced. You have to stop thinking in terms of just DPS and start thinking about Healing and DPS.