What is wrong with Snipers?

[Redat]

I have started to lvl a sniper and I am having a ball, havent died more than a handful of times in the 20 lvls so far. I find the cover syestem the hardest to get my head atround, as it often puts you in awkward spots/positions. Edited April 20, 2012 by Redat

[Enexemander]

Just compare well working talent trees ( for example Pyrotech PowerTech or Arsenal Mercenary ) with our talent trees. Lethality is ok, but Engineer and MM? It's just a collection of different and mostly useless talents with no harmony in there. What's the main "casted" skill as an Engineer - Ambush? Snipe? SoS? Or is it the instant shot after 1.2?

 

See, that above is what I mean when I say that snipers don't suck. People just do not know how to play them.

 

I specced engineering a couple days ago on a whim, and I just fell in love with it.

 

How does engineering work? Can you say "RANGED STUN"? Drop your int. probe on your target, then drop your plasma probe on him. Stunned. Leg shot (for more plasma probe damage). Now drop your demo probe, and Series of Shots. Finish off however you like. Laze target and snipe works well, followed by a takedown.

 

I'm loving the reduced time on Ballistic shield as well. And the 30% shield talent is super nice, because I can destroy my interrogation probe (for nice damage) and then reuse it immediately when it drops.

 

Grenade+rifle shot is an infinite rotation that does a TON of damage in this spec against groups. And orbital strike with cooldowns popped? Oh man.

 

Sadly, the defensive abilities are where people go wrong. Once you've got them down, you're a dueling powerhouse for sure. I take on all comers with no worries. That, or take down the healers while the dps are pathetically trying to peel. Good times.

[LovarBoy]

See, that above is what I mean when I say that snipers don't suck. People just do not know how to play them.

 

I specced engineering a couple days ago on a whim, and I just fell in love with it.

 

How does engineering work? Can you say "RANGED STUN"? Drop your int. probe on your target, then drop your plasma probe on him. Stunned. Leg shot (for more plasma probe damage). Now drop your demo probe, and Series of Shots. Finish off however you like. Laze target and snipe works well, followed by a takedown.

 

I'm loving the reduced time on Ballistic shield as well. And the 30% shield talent is super nice, because I can destroy my interrogation probe (for nice damage) and then reuse it immediately when it drops.

 

Grenade+rifle shot is an infinite rotation that does a TON of damage in this spec against groups. And orbital strike with cooldowns popped? Oh man.

 

Sadly, the defensive abilities are where people go wrong. Once you've got them down, you're a dueling powerhouse for sure. I take on all comers with no worries. That, or take down the healers while the dps are pathetically trying to peel. Good times.

 

 

That's not what I where talking about.

 

It's the missing symbiosis of the talent trees. Engineer is the best example, I think it's the "worst" ( in way of linked talents or working-together-talents ) talent tree in SW:TOR right now ( with it's mirror talent tree ).

 

There is no harmony. Compare it to other talent trees, that's what I did. The following talents rebuilt on lower talents and they work amazingly together ( Arsenal Merc is a very good example ). As an Engineer... yes. You get a new attack, and there is NO specific talent for this new attack ( e.g. Plasma Probe ). Otherwise you get Interrogation Probe and the only talents that are based on the IP is the cost reducing of your other probes and the slow.

 

Furthermore, only 1 of 3 new attacks of the talent tree gets a push of its damage - and that's Plasma Probe because of the increased critical damage of AoE attacks - what the hag? Electrified Railgun is a nice talent, but what's the sense of it? A new, short but strong DoT, working well with PP & IP but why is in the whole talent tree now specific talent for increased DoT damage?

 

 

I hope you can imagine what I want to show - Engineer could be a really nice talent tree, but in so many ways it's just wasted potential.

[Stenax]

Short answer..... Nothing!!

 

Long answer.

I started a sniper as maybe my third toon (after sorcerer and merc)

I found the other 2 easier to play early on so stuck with them then went off track with a powertech and others ....got my sorc to 50

Then I went back to my sniper. They ROCK! I am now levelling her like crazy! DPS plus!

Once I learned how to actual;ly fight with her she is awesome!!!!

 

So nothign is wrong with them!

 

But it is sith v jedi after all

[Raisatihane]

yes! there is nothing wrong with snipers!

(my choice is PVE)

tis MMO - group play. IMO sniper is well made support class for that purpose. If someone wants to be "king of the road"... Sniper is not for you.

[Morticoccus]

Snipers do get a lot of good abilities, and from talents they get one that *should* be the most broken passive defensive ability of the game.

Ballistic dampers.

The one problem I have found when levelling my sniper alt (And I only have ONE force user character on my current server) is that in order to get at the good stuff you pretty much NEED to hybrid it up a slight bit early on, and sink 9 points into MM or 5 points into engi to get a nice base with both bonus energy/cunning from engi and ballistic dampers.

 

This means that if you are playing engineer you get your first engineer core ability at level 29, which blows. It ALSO means that you can survive a *lot* more punishment in FPs or when soloing.

 

However I'd still say that I like Powertech and Operative more, they have more mobility and less really long casting time abilities that let enemies get on top of you.

 

If you want to solo as a sniper you pretty much NEED to go engineer if you're not insanely good at multi target switching. The AOE from that tree just helps so much against the groups of enemies on the 30+ and 40 worlds.

[Mirdthestrill]

That's not what I where talking about.

 

It's the missing symbiosis of the talent trees. Engineer is the best example, I think it's the "worst" ( in way of linked talents or working-together-talents ) talent tree in SW:TOR right now ( with it's mirror talent tree ).

 

There is no harmony. Compare it to other talent trees, that's what I did. The following talents rebuilt on lower talents and they work amazingly together ( Arsenal Merc is a very good example ). As an Engineer... yes. You get a new attack, and there is NO specific talent for this new attack ( e.g. Plasma Probe ). Otherwise you get Interrogation Probe and the only talents that are based on the IP is the cost reducing of your other probes and the slow.

 

Furthermore, only 1 of 3 new attacks of the talent tree gets a push of its damage - and that's Plasma Probe because of the increased critical damage of AoE attacks - what the hag? Electrified Railgun is a nice talent, but what's the sense of it? A new, short but strong DoT, working well with PP & IP but why is in the whole talent tree now specific talent for increased DoT damage?

 

 

I hope you can imagine what I want to show - Engineer could be a really nice talent tree, but in so many ways it's just wasted potential.

 

The Engineer has so much utility it's insane. The talents themselves might not be as obviously interconnected as it seems, but they all work really well together once they're in place. Have you ever run a full Engi build? Good times. PVP awesomeness. And by the way, Electrified Railgun is more of a Cluster Bombs for SoS than a DoT. Besides, who doesn't want a 20%, unmitigatable damage boost on a main ability?

[mordredz]

sniper is a broken class pvp

many bugs,pretictable class easy to counter

 

most ppl rerolled eaze mode sentinels/marau commandos/mercs

 

Broken? rofl no..

 

Easy Counter? rofl no...

 

This all applies to bads that cant utilize them well, like with most classes...

 

Also mara/sent is far from a faceroll, only thing they rerolled was a easy kill for ppl with skill...

[Semjazzah]

I have one phrase for people whom are stating that the cover system is buggy/glitchy and puts you in awkward positions: COVER-IN-PLACE.

 

If you go to your keybindings there is very first section gives you the option of using cover, and cover in place.

 

Here is what I do.

 

Take cover (the kind that makes you roll behind objects available) and assign it to ctrl mouse button 3 ((the mouse roller, when you click it down)) and find the Cover in Place ability, and stick that on regular mouse button 3.

 

Now you can take the cover ability out of your quickslots altogether, switch it out with a stun skill like leg shot or armor/health handicap like shattershot. With the above implemented, you can simply click down on your mouse roller to instantly take a knee right where you are standing, at maximum distance of your target. Ballistic dampeners still works, whether you are behind an object, or taking a knee right where you stand. I have a lvl 50 sniper that is MM, and personally, I had NO problems leveling at all. AT ALL.

 

The damage out put is phenominal, and thats even at lvl 38 when I was wearing gear with lvl 30 mods and replacing mods from quest rewards until I could put on all the lvl 40 pvp gear.

 

Anyone here who had issues playing the MM sniper and was dying alot didn't know what they were doing and was too used to moving around. Being stationary as a sniper, whether in Pve or Pvp, shouldn't be a problem, especially in the latter if you are smart. You have to take advantage of your line of sight, and never be at the forefront of the battle. I agree with those that state that in PvP, you need the help of others, definitely. The drawback of the class is the lack of CC. However, I find that the amount of roots partially remedies that. Leg shot (when having points placed into it in MM) can be used every 12 seconds, and is a 5 second root that ends if damage is inflicted after 2 seconds. (Can you say huttball anyone?) and Cover pulse is an excellent root/knockback easily comparable to Overload, only overload needs a point to have it root. Cover Pulse doesn't.

 

 

People dont have the discipline required to play the class. It's that simple. I am now lvl 50 with my sniper, and I can dish out damage in excess of 6k in a quick clip of attack (ambush and follow through) when shattershot is used before hand. (And Im not fully geared. Only have 2 battlemaster pieces, and rest recruit, 2 columi implants, M'kay?)I have played sith warrior classes, I built a sith sorcerer to 50, I played Powertech, can't say much on mercenary as I have never tried it. But Sniper? It's my gosh darn favorite of the bunch so far.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Semjazzah

[Morticoccus]

You have three charges of 30% damage mitigation, refreshable every time you enter cover on a short CD, on top of a base passive 20% mitigation of ranged damage as long as you're in cover.

 

On top of this you have two of the best cooldown munching CC skills in the game and a ranged interrupt, the only class that get more than you is the Operative and they only get a stealth CC which recently got nerfed anyway, that's 4 reasons to play the class and I havn't even gotten to the damage or energy regen yet...

(EDIT: You have THREE of the best cooldown munching CC skills in the game, I forgot about good ol' leg shot, which all those sents hate so very much)

 

For energy regen you have adrenaline probe, as well as (in the Engi tree) an ability that lets it be re-used if you should need it, on a 60 sec CD, this skill also cuts the CD on shield probe, which gives you even MORE damage reduction for a short time and in addition to all those buffs it also deals AOE damage.

 

You have a self explanatory skill rotation that works even in PvP, most of your skills are instant cast and deal AOE damage in addition to the single target damage, and at the pinnacle of your talent tree you have the best armor ignoring damage attack of the entire game.

 

You don't get facerolled by Sentinels (unless you're stupid) you faceroll sentinels.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Morticoccus

[hadoken]

You have three charges of 30% damage mitigation, refreshable every time you enter cover on a short CD, on top of a base passive 20% mitigation of ranged damage as long as you're in cover.

 

I'm not sure if you're just trying to summarize (badly) or if you're really not familiar with what it does here.

 

To clarify it's not mitigation so much as avoidance and only with 'ranged' specific attacks such as other snipers (or the occasional mercenary) use. Force/Tech stuff isn't affected by cover at all.

Edited April 20, 2012 by hadoken

[Marak]

-They are not force users. Many, many people play a sith, and many a jedi.

-There is no "imperial agent" character in the movie. While every other classes is represented on screen. Even the trooper is represented with Clone Wars (some heroes are trooper, not sure about the name, but Rex should be one of them).

 

It's not this at all. Gunslingers are equally underrepresented and they have, arguably, the most important character of the original trilogy as their poster boy.

 

Part of it is glowbats and the other part is both ACs are clunkier than their alternatives. Operative DPS requires positional attacks and an unforgiving resource system. Compare that to Marauders/Juggs who don't have positional attacks and rage is very free flow and forgiving. Sniper DPS requires cover, which is a rather unnecessary extra GCD in PvE and again with an unforgiving resource system. Compare that to Sorcs who have neither of those things. Bring in PTs and Mercs into the mix and they're at least middle of the road as they do have the more complex resource system but they don't have that extra annoyance.

 

I'm not saying we're bad/broken/lame or whatever, but it's easy to see why we're so few. People like to take the path of least resistance and that's simply not us.

[Crankyhobo]

heh there's no question the sniper is the underdog class atm.

I mean, we can spike ok, but it's a buildup, and experienced players that know when "it" is coming, just have to put up a bubble or something to ignore us while they kill our healer.

The prospect of using cover to protect ourselves from charging marauders is well.. useful if you're solo.. but odds are you're fighting along someone else who ISN'T in cover, so it limits your usefulness in a group. Operatives/assassins don't much care if I'm in cover, as they can sneak up behind me with relative ease and maul me like it's 19.69..

When levelling I was usually in the top 3 damage however, once you hit 50 and start grouping with the, let's be honest here, complete and stronger classes, that'll be far more rare. It happens, but it's bloody rare, and usually the sum of the remaining players underperforming than me being the one eyed man in the land of the blind.

 

For some reason I do love my sniper tho. I played ranger/rifleman in swg... so probably a masochist streak.

I leveled my merc straight after I did my sniper, and it's a COMPLETELY different game. Where on sniper I have to think the next 10 steps ahead, the merc is pure autopilot.. and I think if the merc had come along first, It'd have been an absolute ball ache to level the sniper.

 

My main quarrels with sniper is energy regen, way too slow both in and out of combat, the flawed cover system and the field tech headset looks like the prototype of This!

 

Great post. I think a lot of the sniper looks good in theory but in practice it just doesn't work out like its supposed to. "People cant force charge you while in cover! well you are forced to move to be able to shoot your targets, or someone will just cast a cc or knock-back and you're no longer in cover and get charged.

 

SWTOR has very effective and low cool-down gap closer abilities so being ranged isn't as much of an advantage as you would think. Obviously the target switch time and travel-time-saved is better but somewhat mitigated by the amount of LOS from the level design.

 

The sniper gets eaten alive by pretty much anyone up close and forget about it if you're being targeted by multiple people at once. I also play a marauder and have never had a problem with getting to a target, i don think there is a significant delay in damage delivery. The mara has much much better survivability - defensive cool-downs that work against force users up the yin-yang and is also given things to help with avoidance such as retaliation bypassing dodge/parry.

 

The reality is that snipers do good damage (in the right hands) - comparable to other classes, but its very difficult to play and with less utility and less survivability. Combine that with no solid story, force power or unique appeal. I think the largest draw is that people like 'snipers' from the whole camping in the grass and getting headshots from a 1000 yerds image - and when people realize that this is not how the class actually plays out, i suspect it adds to the negative column.

[Delease]

Not worth playing. Too frustrating, especially on a competitive server. Worse survivability in the game hands down. I last longer & do more for the team on my 0 expertised powertech then my full blown r70+ full BM sniper

Sniper = shelved.

[EliteLX]

Not worth playing. Too frustrating, especially on a competitive server. Worse survivability in the game hands down. I last longer & do more for the team on my 0 expertised powertech then my full blown r70+ full BM sniper

Sniper = shelved.

 

So wrong it gives me a headache. Maybe you just aren't skilled enough of a player to use the sniper to beat almost anyone. The only class I cannot kill solo is a tank. Everyone else drop like flies. I have 1v1'd some of the best pvp'ers on my server and beat them. Your biased,outrageous opinion of snipers is horrible. Valor lvl 81 lethality sniper here. Well over 3,000 games under my belt on a very competitive server. You sir, know absolutely nothing about snipers. This is coming from the best sniper on Keller's Void.

[Narfirill]

well at beginnings i want to say that none under 50 should say anything about pvp

1-49 pvp we dominate coze none has all his skills and defences which we get fairly ahead of them in order to survive (even though with difficulty) on pve solo which is a huge pain in the rear.

after 50 the scenery at pvp change and its bleak for the class if you dont have reliable team and very good gear.

pve endgame is quite good for us.

the class suffers from underexposure at films and PR.

unpolished game play (cover, conflicting skills and abilities etc.)

true sniper feeling due necessary game mechanics

very steep learning curve and severe punishment by game mechanics if you are not perfect during your gaming.

wrong rotation, mistake during rotation, bad reaction time? you are dead or struggling for life were other AC are more forgiving and have reliable escape mechanics, you don't.

lack of mobility scare and alienate many players also.

and we are not that flashy well except that orbital strike were we are far to flashy.

dont get me wrong that helps a lot coze so far that we were not many at list in my server (LoL) we manage to go unnoticed in pvp but not anymore.

people play Force users for sabers and lightning BH/T for missiles/huge guns/heavy armor and then we are there with...???

if you add that we get the list attention from devs in our forums and we are known for survivability issues then you get a good picture for why so few.

 

IMO we were developed at haste so we are unfinished and basically i think the devs don't really know what to do with us. that's why we haven't see the nerf hummer so far (except the Operatives which were the first also typical of unpolished class mechanics) but half heart attempts to give us something here and there that fixes problems but not a nice meaningful overhaul like the sets/maras got and make many things for them better

[Canabyss]

I absolutely LOVE my Sniper. It is one of the more challenging classes to play, but the high dps output definitely makes up for that. I have 2 other 50s, a SS and a Jugg, and they are easy to play.

 

About the mobility... Its all player skill and awareness. People are lazy, and most are not very aware in OPS / PvP

 

They are not that squishy, Ballistic Dampers, Cover Screen, Evasion, Shield Probe, Ballistic Shield and Entrench (when used properly) increase survivability substantially. As well as wearing medium armor.

 

They do have strong AoE... in fact, probably the strongest...Orbital Strike, Corrosive Grenade, Frag Grenade ( with points in the skill that reduces the CD) can pull **** loads of damage and quickly.

 

The only REAL drawbacks to a Sniper:

Too many abilities ( I have all 4 bars out and they are full)

People hate on them, only because they cant do 12-15k dmg in 5 secs (LT, Snipe,FT,Ambush)

[Semjazzah]

I absolutely LOVE my Sniper. It is one of the more challenging classes to play, but the high dps output definitely makes up for that. I have 2 other 50s, a SS and a Jugg, and they are easy to play.

 

About the mobility... Its all player skill and awareness. People are lazy, and most are not very aware in OPS / PvP

 

They are not that squishy, Ballistic Dampers, Cover Screen, Evasion, Shield Probe, Ballistic Shield and Entrench (when used properly) increase survivability substantially. As well as wearing medium armor.

 

They do have strong AoE... in fact, probably the strongest...Orbital Strike, Corrosive Grenade, Frag Grenade ( with points in the skill that reduces the CD) can pull **** loads of damage and quickly.

 

The only REAL drawbacks to a Sniper:

Too many abilities ( I have all 4 bars out and they are full)

People hate on them, only because they cant do 12-15k dmg in 5 secs (LT, Snipe,FT,Ambush)

 

*Applauds* Well played sir. You hit it on the head sir. Have a cookie sir. Haterz gunna hate sir.

 

I approve of this message sir.

[Carbonated]

I hit 50 and did my first 10 warzones today, I've got battlemaster sniper rifle, and bm belt, rest recruit gear. all 10 warzones were losses. 6 of the games were basically 3 capped games against our team that I zoned into with 300 points remaining on my side. I did 90k damage and that was the highest for my team in one of them. Because I didnt get a kill couldnt leave the starting zone without getting killed by the awaiting band of reps in war hero gear and because I didnt get an ambush crit resulted in 3/6 games where I got nothing. Those other games I got 1-2 medals. We had no healers all day.

 

The remaining 4 warzones were losses but the games lasted longer, i managed to get 8 medals in 2 of them.

 

I think my biggest mistake is actually being marksmen. I had many snares etc dodged and also a hit with an ambush on someone with a half resolve bar that didnt knock back, which puzzles me. In aldeeraan warzone I rolled into cover up on a ledge and proceeded to get "you dont have line of sight" error messages on my target which was hitting me with his range attacks and he was on the ground.

 

To say theres nothing wrong with the sniper class isnt 100% accurate. It has this funky mechanic that is handy, but then they made it useless against 90% of people. They need to balance pvp with something like making cover actually useful. Sure you can hide in it, but I have been entrenched and still stunned by a jedi knight. Also choke seems to take you out of your entrenchment as well(only saw this happen once).

 

I had success and fun pre 50 with the sniper. But since hitting 50 and getting comms 1 in 3 games because my server is full of people that quit warzones at any slight change towards a loss has ruined my fun.

[Technohic]

I think our knockbacks are broken. I mean, heavy shot works most the time, but cover pulse probably works about half the time for me. I've noticed this with the large influx of marauders. Resolve bars are not full so I don't know. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

Entrench usually works for me in PvP. It's PvE where it seems almost useless.

 

I am aware the problems are different at 50, but that does not make under 50 combat irrelevant. Probably can't balance based on that, but the bugs are still there.

[LovarBoy]

Let me ask you one thing:

 

 

Do you think, an Engineer or Lethality "Sniper" is a Sniper at all?

 

 

With Lethality it may be - but an Engineer skilled Sniper is no Sniper for me. If I wanted to play a jump-around-and-throw-things-like-bombs-or-grenades-or-probes I would have chosen an Operative or maybe a PowerTech - but no Sniper.

Edited April 21, 2012 by LovarBoy

[Technohic]

Let me ask you one thing:

 

 

Do you think, an Engineer or Lethality "Sniper" is a Sniper at all?

 

 

With Lethality it may be - but an Engineer skilled Sniper is no Sniper for me. If I wanted to play a jump-around-and-throw-things-like-bombs-or-grenades-or-probes I would have chosen an Operative or maybe a PowerTech - but no Sniper.

 

You are getting caught up in the naming which is pretty irrellevent in all classes in this game. I mean, a BH Bodyguard? Doesn't get any more opposite than that unless we had a Sniper tree that focused on only knife attacks. How bout a sith healer? No? Well then go look at the mirrors, cause that is where it makes sense.

[Guildenstern]

There's always going to be one class that is least popular. Hopefully it's because it's hard to play! rather than merely broken. I don't think Sniper is broken, per se, but I do think some skills are (Entrench hasn't worked for me for a long time it seems). I also think we could use another CC for use when in cover besides the pulse.

 

I don't PVP much so while I can see the issues I don't have much comment on them.

 

Sniper is not a role for someone with carpal tunnel in PVP lol

 

I love my Sniper honestly. It is a bit repetitive. I mean when you're constantly killing everything before it has a chance to get to you... it gets old But seriously situational awareness is a key to the class imo and a lot of people don't want to be bothered paying hyper attention to their surroundings.

 

Anyway just my two credits

[nikthebeast]

I'm not saying we're bad/broken/lame or whatever, but it's easy to see why we're so few. People like to take the path of least resistance and that's simply not us.

 

Exactly. Add in the extra ignorance about the class you get the "Pro-PvP" crowd chiming in with their assertions about the usefulness of the sniper. I am not saying I'm better, I freely admit I did this myself before I allowed myself to get into the cover system. Sadly, cover is seen as a disadvantage. Rather ironic when you consider other ACs that use lots of channelled abilities complaining about interrupts.

 

Now, I tend to stick with lethality and hybrids involving lethality, most of the time, so cover for me is just something I do when I want to cull/SoS/Ambush. Most importantly, is to use a good bind for cover so it doesn't feel clunky. I used to use C for crouch and alt+C for cover but have moved away from this. I still have cover at alt+C because even in PVE I don't over feel the need for it. Crouch in place is now bind to mouse scroll forwards and it has made massive difference in seamless positioning and going into cover. Scroll forward and use X ability is much faster than using two keyboard buttons. Cover, these days, is stuck in my muscle memory and it just happends.

 

Just look at the PvP boards, the amount of ignorance there is just mindboggling. I swear many times these people probably think they solo-killed someone without realising a sniper just lay down a world of hurt on the same target.

 

That said, currently I feel a 31leth build is the most competitive build for snipers. I do not say this as a fact, so all you engineers/marksmen out there, don't loose your mind. I like the fact that the damage type the majority of my attacks does not care about what kind of target I'm currently attacking. Indeed, a full stim/CD burn with a cull is just beyond brutal. The mix of on-the-move abilities and channelled pain fits very well for PvP. Also, never forget cover when culling. It is not fun to have it interrupted. Cover is your friend, learn to trust it.

[Delease]

So wrong it gives me a headache. Maybe you just aren't skilled enough of a player to use the sniper to beat almost anyone. The only class I cannot kill solo is a tank. Everyone else drop like flies. I have 1v1'd some of the best pvp'ers on my server and beat them. Your biased,outrageous opinion of snipers is horrible. Valor lvl 81 lethality sniper here. Well over 3,000 games under my belt on a very competitive server. You sir, know absolutely nothing about snipers. This is coming from the best sniper on Keller's Void.

 

Congrats to you. Care to stroke your epeen some more because I would love to hear some more tales of your sniper god mode. It sends shivers down my spine in anticipation.

 

I don't know what changed between patches but pre 1.2, I was doing well, post 1.2, I am getting slaughtered. Its not even competitve if I get 1 on 1 where before it was.

 

ps - i am all for taking advice on improving but not from a person who self proclaims they are the best on so & so server.