SWTOR: Attack of the Clone

[Blistrich]

Star Wars: The Old Republic is, in my humble opinion, a clone of previous mmos (not one previous mmo in particular, but many). The approach to the graphics, the itemization, the ability trees, the PvP, all of it has been done before. Yes, this game has differentiating features (the cinematics in particular), but for the most part, the bulk of how it functions and what it offers has been pulled from other titles.

 

And I'm fine with that. In fact, it doesn't bother me in the least, because I wasn't looking for something revolutionary; I wanted something familiar that was set in the Star Wars universe, which I am a fairly big fan of. As far as science fiction goes, SW is one of the best, and although this game's unrelated predecessor SWG was bolder when it came to offering dynamic new features, I wasn't expecting those in SWTOR.

 

However, some people were, and they weren't entirely wrong in doing so.

 

There is always a fair amount of expectation when a new mmo drops - Will it be a revolutionary experience? An evolutionary experience? A shallow and vapid "copy & paste" flop? Will new content come quickly? Will the player base grow or shrink during the vanilla phase? Will the crafting be challenging? Will the combat function properly? Will this game exceed my expectations, or will it fall short?

 

People (including myself) like to point out all this out and babble on about it for hours as though us having played several mmos or more gives us some special insight into the "big picture", and this afternoon while I was doing exactly that in another thread, I had to ask myself the following question, which I am actually still struggling with philosophically to some degree. It goes beyond SWTOR, but is also relevant here.

 

Are clone mmos necessarily bad things... if they're done right?

[HeavensAgent]

Are clone mmos necessarily bad things... if they're done right?

I think not, especially in today's market; due to a glut of "modern" MMORPGs, to be successful in any way a title in the industry has got to attempt to include at least an approximation of what is perceived to be the current standard. A title literally has no chance of being a true success unless it carries this "cookie cutter" feel.

 

That said, once this is established there's no reason the developers of a title should stick with the basic model. Once the cloned elements are in place and functioning as they should, they can begin to look at more innovative concepts. In fact, SWTOR already boasts one of these innovative systems: the item modification system.

[amnie]

the last 'unique' MMO I played was UO 12 years ago....

[TonyIommi]

Better question would be what was the last unique or completely original game you played in general? or completely original/unique movie you saw? Or book? or song?It's all been done before I guess. Edited April 17, 2012 by TonyIommi

[EvilNob]

the last 'unique' MMO I played was UO 12 years ago....

 

The last 'unique' MMO I played was Star Wars Galaxies... but people complained that it was too complex and SOE felt they should change it to appeal to the masses and proceeded to screw the pooch in 2005. Long story short... here we are.

Edited April 17, 2012 by EvilNob

[Blistrich]

It's all been done before I guess.

Yes it has.

 

The line these days is "It's a WoW clone", but it isn't really, because WoW itself is a clone... of a clone.

 

I just don't have such a problem with these conventional approaches. Dynamic new **** is awesome, but there is actually something to be said for taking a successful, familiar formula and applying a beloved franchise like Star Wars to it, not unlike a fresh coat of paint being applied to an old car. The car maneuvers well... has good mileage... and above all features a familiar layout which makes my drive a comfortable one.

[Rakashan]

There's a similar conversation going on over in one of the Class subforums but it boils down to this....

 

Think about the environment an MMO is developed in. You come up with a mechanic for character advancement... UO and EQ (as designed by Verant, not the Sony watered-down version) used a mechanic where you got better at something by doing it. EQ used experience to unlock some powers, but having a power didn't mean it would work (how many of you remember spells fizzling at critical moments?). Crafting in most MMOs these days still follows that mechanic but class advancement often does not because players think that there's too much grind (I had to grind the experience, what do you mean I have to practice casting this new spell too?).

 

On top of that, you have the story and any quests and such to think about. What is there that's novel in a questline? Why do we have the basic quest types of kill, collect and deliver? Well, stop an think about what else you could ask someone to do. You can add window-dressing, but everything kinda boils down to those three at the end. You can combine them... Go kill X of those to collect Y of these to deliver to over there. Not really revolutionary. Further confounding your best efforts, if you make those questlines complex and say "if you deliver to NPC1 you unlock his quests (questline1) but offend NPC2 and close off questline2" then you come up against a really nasty external factor... You've got to hire writers to make questline1 and questline2 but your players only get to do one of the two. You've effectively doubled your development time for the same amount of playable content (as viewed by the player community). Not a wise choice for any Vanilla MMO where you know you'll be compared to content in mature MMOs who've had years more development time than you have.

 

So yeah... This MMO and every other new one will clone some aspect of other MMOs. Most of *any* MMO these days is new set-dressing on an old idea. But you can say the same about games outside the genre as well. I laughed when I heard about all the "advancements" in FPS games... They've got all this new physics and they've left behind the corridor-style directed path from room to room for more open maps where you can go in just about any direction to find someone to shoot with your shiny, new physics engine. Strip away all the shiny and you get... Castle Wolfenstein from the 1980s. Same basic plot and mechanics, shiny new engine.

[EzoEo]

There's a similar conversation going on over in one of the Class subforums but it boils down to this....

 

 

So yeah... This MMO and every other new one will clone some aspect of other MMOs. Most of *any* MMO these days is new set-dressing on an old idea. But you can say the same about games outside the genre as well. I laughed when I heard about all the "advancements" in FPS games... They've got all this new physics and they've left behind the corridor-style directed path from room to room for more open maps where you can go in just about any direction to find someone to shoot with your shiny, new physics engine. Strip away all the shiny and you get... Castle Wolfenstein from the 1980s. Same basic plot and mechanics, shiny new engine.

 

I'd disagree if you look at Battlefield 3 with it aerial combat which is it's what seperates it from 99% of the shooters.

 

There there is the Frostbite 2 engine, HDR Audio and destructible enviroments. There is a reason EA asked them to help with ME3.

 

If you take it online then it's a different game as every map is abour team work and that is something which Bioware are obviously trying to incoropate into their warzones.

 

Bioware should just really ask DICE to make their maps and PvP systems as it would work better

[TKMaster]

The last 'unique' MMO I played was Star Wars Galaxies... but people complained that it was too complex and SOE felt they should change it to appeal to the masses and proceeded to screw the pooch in 2005. Long story short... here we are.

 

I think you mean Smedly & Nancy complained it was complex, most of us players complained it was broken, boring, and a POS.

[notebene]

Are clone mmos necessarily bad things... if they're done right?

 

Considering those are two questions:

 

1. No

2. 'Right' is entirely subjective. Have you ever heard this in a trade channel in an MMO?

 

"WTB good sword"

 

Good.

 

[Blistrich]

Have you ever heard this in a trade channel in an MMO?

 

"WTB good sword"

 

No. I have, however, seen "LF guild".

 

On top of that, you have the story and any quests and such to think about.

See, that's my issue. It seems like whenever a game company aims for the stars, they end up hitting the side of that barn over there. Age of Conan is a flawless example of a game that so much was put into, it never actually got done. It's still not done, even today. But Funcom has other priorities, ie. their latest clone Secret World.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Blistrich

[KrittaB]

I've actually come to a realization about these forums in general, and it's given me a new outlook on MMO communities.

 

The problem that we have in this game is that there are so many people playing who are interested in so many different aspects of the game, that when people come to complain/criticize, it can often seem to meld into one giant community that cannot be happy about anything in the game, but I don't think that's really the case.

 

 

I think the majority of players of this game realize that new MMO's need to be somewhat of a clone to be successful. Some features are absolutely necessary, though people's opinions on what is or isn't necessary differ. I think a lot of people's attitudes are extremely poor here and if they would take the time to stop acting childish and put some thought into their criticisms we'd be much better off, but that's a different topic.

Edited April 19, 2012 by KrittaB

[Saltybill]

well, let me counter your "clone" with a picture! (edit... seems you can't post pics here... anyways, go to the link, it's my webcomic about wowclones)

 

http://coffin-comics.jesterbrand.com/2012/03/30/tolkien-did-it/

 

see, I don't think they are necessarily clones, rather it's natural selection in action! someone posted in another thread in response to complaints about how everything is "kill x boars" with "everything in an mmo is boiled down to killing, capturing, or escorting". paraphrased of course, but it's true! and they are there for a reason! it just works.

 

the link also has a poll about this topic "wowclones or evolutions of the genre"

[RSLeMire]

It is the nature of MMOs

[Selethar]

They never once claimed it would be otherwise. They always said they were going to add some things not really seen before (full V/O) but they also said that they weren't out to re-invent the wheel.

[Crimson_Spider]

Well the problem I have with this kind of argument and/or discussion is that I don't feel I can apply it to other games... Is Halo a clone of Doom (both have guns and you have to kill things while walking)? is Modern Warfare stale because its an FPS with the same mechanics of "point and shoot" as Wolfestein (stop hinting at your age damn it!) ?

[Alpine]

Better question would be what was the last unique or completely original game you played in general? or completely original/unique movie you saw? Or book? or song?It's all been done before I guess.

 

That which has been is what will be,That which is done is what will be done,And there is nothing new under the sun. -- Ecclesiastes 1:9

Edited April 19, 2012 by Alpine

[DragoAskani]

I'd disagree if you look at Battlefield 3 with it aerial combat which is it's what seperates it from 99% of the shooters.

 

 

Which has been done before in previous games. Including even MMO fps attempts like planetside.

[Asroha]

I'm very suprised Blizzard hasn't sued Bioware over this game yet. It's a CARBON copy of WoW.

 

Might as well call it "World of Star Wars"...

[AH-Mael]

As much as people want to argue about it, it is Star Wars WoW. Granted there are some differences but ever play a warrior in WoW and a Sith Warrior or Jedi Knight tank? It is almost identical. I think it is great though. The only reason I stopped playing WoW in January after 7 years was because this game came out. I didn't leave WoW because I hated the game but because this game was similar but set in the Star Wars universe.

[Crimson_Spider]

I'm very suprised Blizzard hasn't sued Bioware over this game yet. It's a CARBON copy of WoW.

 

Might as well call it "World of Star Wars"...

 

Well unless they want to be sued themselves by previous MMOS and they in turn by others.... I really don't get this argument of a Carbon Copy.... I mean are we calling EA SPORTS GRAND SLAM TENNIS 2™ a Carbon Copy of Pong?? (same objective right?)

[Pantheros]

There's plenty of posts showing the various number of ways that bioware copied WoW shot for shot. I think this is actually part of the issue, they've essentially built a game that feels like WoW but without the polish of years of iteration.

[ZombieClownz]

Star Wars: The Old Republic is, in my humble opinion, a clone of previous mmos (not one previous mmo in particular, but many). right?

 

While I agree to a point that its similar/the same as previous MMO's, I have to wonder why they didn't take any of the lessons learned from previous MMO's and apply it to their game?

 

Imagine if the GTN was a clean, functional, broker that sold items from both factions, and there wasn't the two different GTN's, the second of which no one uses.

 

Imagine if abilities functioned one way in PVE, but had similar, but more relevant effects in PVP. No more nerfing abilities to function properly in PVP, but making them useless in PVE and vice versa, just tweak what needs to be tweaked and it won’t affect anything else.

 

Imagine if there was no real distinction between Heavy, Medium and Light armor, there was just appearance, and the user attached some form of modification to give them the stats they were desired/needed. One set of slots and mods for PVE, and one for PVP. Gear no longer gets nerfed to be fair in one, while making it useless in the other. Also, after 12+ years of MMO gaming isn't obvious by now that people cherish the look of their avatars, and want to have them look a certain way without sacrificing stats that they would get from end game items.

 

Imagine if you could have a guild bank at launch, a shared account based bank for all of your toons on one account, at launch. Imagine if most of the stuff in game could be shared with the other toons on your account. Why do I have to run a boat load of dailies on one toon, only to do it on another toon when he/she reaches 50? I’m board to death of doing them by then, and the thought of dragging another toon through them for the next several weeks is enough to make me want to find a bleach and Windex cocktail. Commendations and other "currency" types should be account based.

 

The list could go on and on, but I fear I’m already in the TL:DR realm.

[Darka]

For a large part people tend to forget that games in the same genre tend to have specific features that define them,

Everything gets compared to the King,

It happened before WoW

To WoW

And will happen After WoW

 

Clone/Copy/not enough like, every game lives in its shadow until a new game manages to step out of it.

IF WoW can sue TOR, then WoW should be sued for all the games it got ideas from,,,

[TKMaster]

And all shooters are clones, all rpg's are clones, all Jrpg's are clones, all platformers are clones...see a pattern?